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To: starfish923; jamaly
1. Abusive spouses CAN control themselves. They don't beat up their boss, their neighbors, the local cop or the local minnister....they beat up NO one except the fool who allows herself to be beaten.

Some abusers beat up their boss, their neighbors, the local cop etc... "Going postal" would be an extreme example of it. In the case of a spouse, change the word allows to tolerates. People do *not* give their abuser permission to abuse them, though many tolerate ongoing abuse. Oft times, because they feel they deserve it.

Please don't start the lecture about abused women syndrome. Men who beat women seek out women who will allow themselves to be beaten.

The batterer can also be the woman & you're being a bit over simplistic.

It NEVER starts the day after the wedding. That kind of nastiness starts WAY before....unless a woman is foolish enough to marry a man before she knows him well.

It *usually* starts before the wedding, but not always. Narcissists tend to be very good at hiding what's in store. They may not begin to work on breaking down their victim until after they know they've got them hooked.

Then, she claims that she is stuck. Sure she is because she allows herself to be. Adults are NOT weak, helpless, innocents who are incapable of changing, moving, growing and being responsible. They really aren't.

Millions of Iraqi's & Afghani's were "stuck". It is the exact same mentality, writ large.

Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to help people begin to unstick themselves. Sadly, much of the psychological "help" available to those trying to unstick tends towards reshuffling the pieces around the same game board.

2. As for your vengeful, insane ex-son-in-law, one wonders at your daughter for ever marrying him. I hope she didn't stay long enough to have children with him.

Was that really necessary?

Went through one of these murder/suicide things with my ex's extended family, though he didn't kill any of his children. After he retired, he became depressed & worried about his ability to provide for himself & his wife. I never saw the couple as codependent...

38 posted on 07/09/2006 11:38:53 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly
<Some abusers beat up their boss, their neighbors, the local cop etc... "Going postal" would be an extreme example of it. In the case of a spouse, change the word allows to tolerates. People do *not* give their abuser permission to abuse them, though many tolerate ongoing abuse. Oft times, because they feel they deserve it.
Abusers who beat up bosses? What boss doesn't file a police report? Those who "go postal" do it ONCE. Then, they are dead. "Going postal" happens ONCE.

Enablers DO give their abuser permission to abuse them because they STAY with them. In fact, they KNOW what kind of men they are before they marry them....or they married these abusers without knowing them very well. And, the abuse starts pretty soon. Certainly before four children come into the picture.

The very definition of "enabler" is the "tolerator." If they feel that they "deserve it" then they are as SICK as the people who abuse them.
NO ONE deserves it and, when a person has four children, one HAS to step up to the plate and protect children and self. To do otherwise shows no courage.
It's not the children's fault that mom has no guts....it's her fault and MANY women find the backbone when it comes to protecting their children. They may have to dig deep but they DO, God bless'em.

I have infinite faith in people ability to change or to step up to the challenge. Too many people HAVE found the courage. It's rarely hopeless.

In this case, it is because all five are dead. I just wonder at what mom might have done to keep this tragedy from the "hopeless" stage....and I DON'T buy into the "cpuldn't do anything" excuse. There are almost always choices.

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The batterer can also be the woman & you're being a bit over simplistic.
True, it does happen but the HUGE majority is the other way. So, it isn't a stretch to make the batterer HIM ... and you know it.

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It *usually* starts before the wedding, but not always. Narcissists tend to be very good at hiding what's in store. They may not begin to work on breaking down their victim until after they know they've got them hooked.
Lol. Does that mean that narcissists are therefore abusers? No, it doesn't. They are no better or worse at hiding things than anyone else. It depends on how smart/crafty they are. It has NOTHING to do with battering.
Also it DOES start before the wedding because the abuser SEEKS out the doormat. He (and I will continue to use that pronoun) tries her out so he will know how far he can go. He discards the women who WON'T put up with it. He's EXTRA nice to the doormat because he knows that her self esteem is so low (or she's not very smart, PLUS being a doormat) that ANY attention will get her hooked. But, he HAS to test her so he can test the limits of his abuse.
It wouldn't work any other way.

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1. Millions of Iraqi's & Afghani's were "stuck". It is the exact same mentality, writ large.
2. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to help people begin to unstick themselves. Sadly, much of the psychological "help" available to those trying to unstick tends towards reshuffling the pieces around the same game board.

1. Wrong again. Women in Muslim cultures DO have recourse.....their own families. Afghanistan's MEN were as abused and oppressed as the women. ALL men had to wear beards, had to eschew their wives company in public, serve in the militia and had to BOW DOWN to the Taliban. If the MEN disobeyed they were killed or imprisoned, leaving their families destitute. Most men obeyed because they feared for their own families. It was brutal for all Afghanis, not JUST the women.
2. Change HAS to come from within. If change ONLY comes from without, then there is no change and the doormat will find another abuser. It's the same with many dysfuntions...change HAS to come from within.

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Was that really necessary?
Went through one of these murder/suicide things with my ex's extended family, though he didn't kill any of his children. After he retired, he became depressed & worried about his ability to provide for himself & his wife. I never saw the couple as codependent...

NOW you mention the murder/suicide. How convenient to mention it WITH your scold and not before. No apologies from me. You were extremely manipulative with your information. And you know that too.
Finally, just because YOU didn't see them as codependent doesn't really mean much.....given what you've written above. You JUST finished saying how good they were at hiding themselves. I don't think that you can have it both ways.

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These horror stories don't come from nothing and nowhere. That is my point.
Given the attitudes about the WIFE on this thread and YOUR attitudes about abuse I am NOT SURPRISED AT ALL that the abuse continues.
It's all very sad, especially because it is MOSTLY preventable.

40 posted on 07/09/2006 1:02:21 PM PDT by starfish923 ( Socrates: It's never right to do wrong.)
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To: GoLightly; starfish923
GoLightly, thanks for sticking up for me and my daughter.

My daughter stayed in her marriage because she believed that marriage was FOREVER. She knew if she told us what he was doing to her we would have forced her to leave him. Her husband threateded suicide on a regular basis often with a gun right beside him. My daughter stayed because she said she would never be able to live with herself if he killed himself because of her. She finally got the courage to leave when she started to fear for the safety of her children.

Starfish, spousal abuse often happens slowly and gets progressively worse. The abuser browbeats the victim into believing they deserve the abuse. Also, financial reasons keep people together even if they desperately want out. There are not nearly enough shelters for abused women to use for escape. I don't care what you say or how brave you think you are. If you thought a crazy relative might come murder your daughter or your grandchildren, who lives with you, you would be afraid, too.

Talk is cheap. Walk a mile in my shoes or the shoes of an abused wife and you will see there are no simple answers.

Starfish923, while you are doing all your praying maybe you should pray for a brain and a heart. You know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.

75 posted on 07/09/2006 9:53:09 PM PDT by jamaly (I will never forget 9-11-01!!!!)
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