immigration

[MNJohnnie]

Corporations are collections of investors. An awful lot of them are ordinary everyday Americans who have Union Pension funds or 401k Plans.

Corporations are not some big evil enmity looking for ways to screw "poor" people. They could care less about you.

We need to give up this Neo Marxist "Big Corporations are out to screw you" class warfare nonsense. Look around at who hires Illegals. Mostly it small time operators doing lawn work, running farms, who own a Janitor service or a grocery store. Want to crack down on those hiring Illegals? Fine by me but give up the Neo Marxist class ware fare nonsense.

[MNJohnnie]

Try and think more clearly before you reply again, will ya?

Actually try thinking for once instead of just spewing your emotion based dogma. Illegals supposedly make up about 7% of the work force. Full Employment is definded by Economists as 5% Unemployment. 5% is the commonly accepted number since there are a certain number of unempoyables, marginally empoyabl or those changing jobs at any moment. We are currently at 4.6 Unemployment. Thus the FACTS show it to be a lie to claim that "Illegals are taking a large number of jobs from Americans."

[MACVSOG68]

There is plenty of evience to support my position:

Sorry, but the evidence required was whether in fact, as you stated, illegals are taking jobs away from Americans, not what the opinions of Americans were. As you chided me, think.

But I am glad you look at the polls. I'm not sure why you are shying away from the ones from May and June, after the Senate debate and after the demonstrations. In fact, almost none of your earlier polls conflicts with the ones that show most Americans believe that illegals don't take away jobs Americans want. They do show as do current polls, that Americans want strong border security, a good enforcement program, but also want both a guest worker program and a program similar to the Senate version. I doubt that any poll taken in January is a better substitute for May-June polls. Would you agree?

[MACVSOG68]

We are currently at 4.6 Unemployment. Thus the FACTS show it to be a lie to claim that "Illegals are taking a large number of jobs from Americans."

I guess I couldn't have explained that any better.

[Jameison]

"Well, try and think critically for a change."

You might try taking that advise.
You have not exactly been great in the thinking department so far, have you?


"First, I have no idea whether it's true or not that in fact illegals are taking jobs away from Americans, "

You have no idea, but you know Americans don't think illegals are taking jobs from Americans anyway, do you? Riiight.

"especially given the 4% unemployment rate."

Unemployment is 4.6%.
And that is out of a population of 300 million.
And there is much higher unemployment amongst blacks and lower skilled workers.

We are not short of low skilled workers.
They just gotta pay above third world wages as this polls shows:

"Seventy-six percent of Americans polled are concerned that American workers can't afford to work for the same low wages as illegal aliens.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006 "


"Second, you are in the minority in your opinion because most Americans don't believe illegals are taking jobs away. That is if you believe the polls."

That's easy:



Sixty-three percent of Americans polled are concerned about illegal aliens taking away jobs from American workers.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006


You got any more nonsense to spew out?

[Jameison]

"Sorry, but the evidence required was whether in fact, as you stated, illegals are taking jobs away from Americans, not what the opinions of Americans were"

This is so easy.
Lets go back and read what you posted shall we?


# 13 posted on 07/15/2006 8:12:26 AM PDT by MACVSOG68:

Most Americans disagree.



# 17 posted on 07/15/2006 8:43:34 AM PDT by MACVSOG68:


since all I said was that most Americans don't believe that. Whether it's true or not, I've not seen any data. Your view appears to be in the minority.

---snipe----

As I'm sure you are aware, when one makes a specific charge, it is not up to everyone else to prove him wrong, it is up to him to prove his charge correct. Again, I can't say one way or another, but I can say that most Americans don't believe that.


Dude, you have been all about what Americans THINK about whether illegals are taking their jobs or not, and that's exactly what you got.
Be a man and don't try to weasel out. Its too pathetic to behold.

[Jameison]

"Well, I certainly wouldn't claim your gift of critical thinking, but no, they do not conflict. One concerns facts, the other concerns opinions about those facts."

Hah Hah!

[MACVSOG68]

You might try taking that advise. You have not exactly been great in the thinking department so far, have you?

No, I thought I might be dealing with an intelligent conservative here, and so my thinking hasn't been great this morning.

You have no idea, but you know Americans don't think illegals are taking jobs from Americans anyway, do you? Riiight.

Correct. Can you name one job an illegal has taken away from an American? But I am willing to concede the possibility, though as I said, most Americans don't believe they take jobs away. Yes, in fact those two conclusions are not mutually exclusive.

Unemployment is 4.6%. And that is out of a population of 300 million. And there is much higher unemployment amongst blacks and lower skilled workers.

The question is will blacks and lower skilled workers take the jobs. Most Americans don't think so. And looking at New Orleans where $10 to $25 an hour jobs went wanting (few of the evacuees wanted to come back and work), I would say most Americans are right.

Sixty-three percent of Americans polled are concerned about illegal aliens taking away jobs from American workers. Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Is that it? January? You mean there have been no polls since?

You got any more nonsense to spew out?

Actually yes.

A June 8-25 Gallup Polls showed that 74% say that illegals take jobs most Americans don't want.
LA. Times/Bloomberg 6/24-27 showed that 51% say illegals take jobs Americans don't want.
CBS News/NY Times 5/4-8 shows that 53% feel illegals take jobs Americans don't want.

Given your interest in polls, is that enough spew for you to chew on, or would you like to see more?

[MNJohnnie]

Too bad for you we are a Constitutional Republic, not a Direct Democracy, you don't get a vote on it.


Polling data is not fact. I have give you the facts that prove your polling data in error.

I love the way supposed Conservative claim polling data "proves" their point when it agrees with their personal bias. No it does not. CFR, RX Drug, and No Child, all things Conservatives hate polled well also. Polling data claimed Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter were "too close to call" in going into the Nov 1980 election. If you polled Americans MOST of them would think the rich don't pay their fair share of taxes. Factual nonsense but it polls well.

We are a Constitutional Republican, NOT a direct Democracy, "Polling well" is utterly irrelevant to what is, and is not, factual.

[Jameison]

"Actually try thinking for once instead of just spewing your emotion based dogma"

Heeeeeere's MexicoJuan!
Still spewing out Laraza crap are you?
Bring it on!

"Illegals supposedly make up about 7% of the work force. Full Employment is definded by Economists as 5% Unemployment. 5% is the commonly accepted number since there are a certain number of unempoyables, marginally empoyabl or those changing jobs at any moment. We are currently at 4.6 Unemployment. Thus the FACTS show it to be a lie to claim that "Illegals are taking a large number of jobs from Americans." "

Supposedly 7%?
Where at?

Your numbers don't add up.
Even more to the point, I see economics is not your strong point either.
But then what is (apart from spewing out Laraza hot air that is)?

[MACVSOG68]

Dude, you have been all about what Americans THINK about whether illegals are taking their jobs or not, and that's exactly what you got. Be a man and don't try to weasel out. Its too pathetic to behold.

Sorry you were unable to read. My point was that most Americans believe that illegals take jobs Americans don't want. I said that I didn't know factually whether that was true or not. You countered that of course illegals are taking jobs Americans don't want. What part of that do you not understand? This was what I responded to:

Perhaps you will prove that illegals are not taking any jobs from Americans.

Was that you? If so, then what is your point. I can't prove they don't. One cannot prove a negative. But it's your charge, and so far you have not proved it. And you were saying about pathetic to behold?

[MACVSOG68]

Hah Hah!

Better that than attempting to respond to the question.

[grellis]

So the fact that they are illegal--that their mere presence is, as a matter of law, a criminal act--I guess that's just okay then, hmmmm? My house is on the market, and I could really use an extra $3K cash. Do you give me the green light to "advance myself a loan" from the liquor store a few blocks away?

[Jameison]

"No, I thought I might be dealing with an intelligent conservative here, and so my thinking hasn't been great this morning.
"

Thinking is not your strong point. Period.
Ah well.


" Can you name one job an illegal has taken away from an American?"

Huh?
You just lost it did you? Sigh.
From Thomas Sowell, one of the best economists of his generation:

"How many times have we heard that illegal aliens are taking "jobs that Americans won't do"? Just what specifically are those jobs?


Even in occupations where illegals are concentrated, such as agriculture, cleaning, construction, and food preparation, the great majority of the work is still being done by people who are not illegal aliens.

The highest concentration of illegals is in agriculture, where they are 24 percent of the people employed. That means three-quarters of the people are not illegal aliens. But when will the glib phrase-mongers stop telling us that the illegals are simply taking "jobs that Americans won't do"?"



"But I am willing to concede the possibility, "

Now that's mighty generous of you.


"though as I said, most Americans don't believe they take jobs away"

I'll supply you with the evidence..yet again:

"Sixty-three percent of Americans polled are concerned about illegal aliens taking away jobs from American workers.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006"


"Yes, in fact those two conclusions are not mutually exclusive."

Hah Hah.
All you keep doing is confusing yourself even more with every post you put in.
Why don't you go take a walk to clear ya head?
It's for your own good.

[Bernard]

If all the illegals were gone, would there be a need for a minimum wage law in this country?

[MACVSOG68]

I know how interested you are in polling data from several months back. Unlike you, however, I do put data in that disagrees with my position. Here's some recent data you can work into your theories. I'm sure you will appreciate it.

FOX 7/13/06
37% to 32% feel Democrats would do better job on immigration
37% to 31% feel Republicans would do better job on border security
Failure to pass a bill would be Bush and Republican congressional fault 43%. Democrats in congress 21%
41% to 36% Immigrants give to the country rather than take away
51% say immigrants should decrease; 41% no change or increase
34% feel borders should be secured first; 35% feel deal with those here first; 28% both equally

Tarrance Group Survey 6/12-13/06
75% of likely voters wanted something similar to the Senate version
49% said it was not amnesty
95% said it was important to pass a bill this year

Gallup 6/8-25/06
59% said immigration should remain at current levels or increase
67% said immigration was a good thing; 28% said bad
66% said illegals cost too much; 29% pay fair share
74% say illegal immigrants take jobs most Americans don't want
66% say illegals should remain if they meet certain requirements; 16% want to deport all

LA Times/Bloomberg 6/24-27/06
34% - 23% Democrats can do better on immigration
87% say immigration is most important or one of most important issues
51% say illegals take jobs no American wants
46% support guest worker program; 22% oppose
67% want illegals to have a path to citizenship
44% want a felony for being in US illegally
58% want a tougher enforcement combined with a guest worker program
22% want only tougher enforcement
60% will be disappointed if no bill is passed this year

NBC/Wall Street Journal 6/9-12/06
50% want increased border security
40% want a guest worker program; 34% do not
More today believe Democrats will do better on immigration than 11/05
50% feel immigration helps; 50% feels it hurts. 12/05 hurts was 53%, helps was 37%
50% favor the Senate Bill; 33% favor the House Bill

CBS News Poll 6/10-11/06
33% approve of President Bush on immigration; 56% disapprove

API/Ipsos 5/15-17/06
52% believe immigration is a good influence on US; 46% a bad influence

Fox News Poll 5/16-18/06
57% feel illegal immigration is very serious problem, 29% somewhat serious
63% favor letting those with jobs apply for legal, temporary worker status
55% favor sending as many back as possible

CBS News Poll 5/16-17/06
77% favor Senate approach to citizenship
61% favor a guest worker program

CNN Poll 5/16-17/06
50% disapprove of Bush handling of immigration; 36% approve
79% favor the Senate approach to citizenship
66% favor increasing penalties for employers who hire illegals

ABC News/Washington Post Poll 5/11/15/06
77% feel US not doing enough to prevent illegal immigration

Newsweek Poll 5/11-12/06
61% disapprove of Bush handling of immigration

CBS News/NY Times Poll 5/4-8/06
61% say legal immigration should be at current levels or increased; 34% say decreased
89% say illegal immigration is a very serious or somewhat serious problem
53% feel illegal immigrants take jobs no one wants; 36% feel they take jobs away
61% feel illegals should be given chance to keep jobs; 35% feel they should be deported
66% oppose a 700 mile fence; 29% favor
70% feel illegals weaken the economy

[Jameison]

"Better that than attempting to respond to the question."

You already got more pertinent replies from me than your little mind can cope with.
And you are not doing a very good job of responding to them either.
Poor guy.

[MACVSOG68]

I'm tired of trying talk rationally to the irrational. See my post 36, and if you want to discuss those findings, I'll be around. Until then amuse yourself....with yourself.

[Jameison]

Polls on what Amercans think about jobs and imigration:

Sixty percent of Americans favor imposing fines of tens of thousands of dollars on employers who hire illegal immigrants.
Opinion Research Corporation/Lou Dobbs poll, June 8-11, 2006

Eighty-one percent of Americans polled support strict criminal penalties on employers who, after repeatedly being cited, persist in knowingly hiring illegal aliens.
Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Eighty-four percent of Americans believe the most effective way to reduce illegal immigration is to cut off the employment incentive for coming here by instituting tough penalties for businesses that hire illegal immigrants. More than half think this would be "very effective," and another 32% say it would be "somewhat effective."
The Gallup Poll, April 7-9, 2006

Fifty-nine percent of black California voters favor imposing stiff penalties on employers and individuals who hire illegal aliens.
The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Sixty percent of California voters favor imposing stiff penalties on employers and individuals who hire illegal aliens.
The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Seventy-three percent of Americans favor imposing fines and criminal charges against employers who hire illegals.
Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

More than ninety percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed believe illegal immigration is a problem. Seventy percent rank it as a "very serious" or "serious" problem.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Eighty-six percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed say illegal immigration should have a "very high" or "high" priority for Congress and the Bush administration.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Sixty-three percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed oppose amnesty for illegal immigrants if they only need to prove that they have been living in the U.S. for at least three years.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Increasing penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens was supported by seventy-eight percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed.
National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Seventy-one percent support major penalties for employers who hire illegals.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, March 29-30, 2006

Seventy-six percent of Americans polled are concerned that American workers can't afford to work for the same low wages as illegal aliens.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Sixty-three percent of Americans polled are concerned about illegal aliens taking away jobs from American workers.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Seventy-four percent of Americans polled favor providing major penalties for employers convicted of hiring illegal aliens and strongly enforcing it.
Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Eighty percent on Arizona voters favor penalizing businesses that hire illegal aliens.
KAET-TV and Arizona State University's Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication poll, January 19-22, 2006


And June is not "several months back"

[Jameison]

"I'm tired of trying talk rationally to the irrational"

You don't have anything that makes any sense to say. Period.
And you are yet to win even a single debate on any immigration thread so far.
It's impossible to win any logic based debate, when you support amnesty of the hordes illegal Mexican invaders and criminals.