immigration

[Jameison]

" My point was that most Americans believe that illegals take jobs Americans don't want. "

Precisely.
And you were then supplied with evidence to prove that Americans do indeed believe that illegals are taking their jobs.
Whereupon your promptly changed tack
Normal loony left bait and swatch.
So what's new?

[MACVSOG68]

Sixty percent of Americans favor imposing fines of tens of thousands of dollars on employers who hire illegal immigrants. Opinion Research Corporation/Lou Dobbs poll, June 8-11, 2006

Does not dispute the polls I provided. Most Americans do want increased border security and strong employer enforcement along with a guest worker program and/or a path to citizenship.

Eighty-one percent of Americans polled support strict criminal penalties on employers who, after repeatedly being cited, persist in knowingly hiring illegal aliens. Roper ASW Poll conducted for Negative Population Growth (NPG), April 14-16, 2006

Does not conflict with the polling data I gave you.

Eighty-four percent of Americans believe the most effective way to reduce illegal immigration is to cut off the employment incentive for coming here by instituting tough penalties for businesses that hire illegal immigrants. More than half think this would be "very effective," and another 32% say it would be "somewhat effective." The Gallup Poll, April 7-9, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I gave you, though April is a bit early. Most Americans still want the flow of illegals stopped.

Fifty-nine percent of black California voters favor imposing stiff penalties on employers and individuals who hire illegal aliens. The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I provided you.

Sixty percent of California voters favor imposing stiff penalties on employers and individuals who hire illegal aliens. The Field Poll, April 3-10, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I provided you. Most Americans want tough enforcement.

Seventy-three percent of Americans favor imposing fines and criminal charges against employers who hire illegals. Opinion Dynamics Poll for FOX News, April 4-5, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I provided.

More than ninety percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed believe illegal immigration is a problem. Seventy percent rank it as a "very serious" or "serious" problem. National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I provided you. Most Americans believe it is a very serious or serious problem, which has been my point. The Republicans control both houses of Congress and yet the issue sits on the table.

Eighty-six percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed say illegal immigration should have a "very high" or "high" priority for Congress and the Bush administration. National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

This completely supports my position, and yet, there it lays on the table.

Sixty-three percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed oppose amnesty for illegal immigrants if they only need to prove that they have been living in the U.S. for at least three years. National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Most Americans support some type of program to give certain illegals a path to citizenship if they meet certain requirements and pay penalties, so that does not conflict.

Increasing penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens was supported by seventy-eight percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed. National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I provided. Americans want tougher enforcement.

Seventy-one percent support major penalties for employers who hire illegals. Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, March 29-30, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I provided. Most Americans want tougher enforcement.

Seventy-six percent of Americans polled are concerned that American workers can't afford to work for the same low wages as illegal aliens. Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Then raise the minimum wage and implement tougher enforcement. Most are working for minimum wage or slightly higher. Few Americans will work for even 10 or 12 dollar an hour as the contractors in New Orleans found out.

Sixty-three percent of Americans polled are concerned about illegal aliens taking away jobs from American workers. Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

You know, using data that tends to support your position while ignoring data that refutes your position is patently dishonest. I went to the poll you cite, and yes, 63% are concerned, but you seemed to ignore the rest of the poll which found that 56% believe illegals are taking jobs Americans don't want; that 73% approve of a guest worker program; that 64% approve of temporary visas; that 76% favor allowing illegals to stay in the US provided they do certain things? Did you mean to overlook those findings from the same poll?

Seventy-four percent of Americans polled favor providing major penalties for employers convicted of hiring illegal aliens and strongly enforcing it. Time Magazine/SRBI Survey, January 24-26, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I gave you. Most Americans want tougher enforcement.

Eighty percent on Arizona voters favor penalizing businesses that hire illegal aliens. KAET-TV and Arizona State University's Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication poll, January 19-22, 2006

Does not conflict with the data I provided. Most Americans want tougher enforcement.

All in all, not one poll you showed here conflicts with anything I said or presented to you. To summarize:

• Immigration is considered a very serious issue.
• Most Americans want tough enforcement.
• Most Americans want secure borders.
• Most Americans believe illegals do not take jobs away from Americans.
• Most Americans favor a guest worker program.
• Most Americans favor a path to citizenship.
• Most Americans want the Congress to pass a bill this year.

I hope that helps you organize your position a bit more.

[MACVSOG68]

You don't have anything that makes any sense to say. Period.

Well, after reading your thoughts, I'd say you are right, that anything I would say wouldn't make any sense to you. But that says much more about you than it does me.

And you are yet to win even a single debate on any immigration thread so far. It's impossible to win any logic based debate, when you support amnesty of the hordes illegal Mexican invaders and criminals.

Well, no I don't get on these threads to win arguments. I get on them to ensure that the ultra-whackos are not the only voice...just in case some folks get on here to possibly learn something. I don't consider an exchange of ideas as winning or losing. I tend to respect others' ideas, even if I disagree with them. But for some here, you included, the only way you can seem to make your point is through distortions of facts and insults. That is the DU way, but I didn't think it was the FR way.

[Jameison]

" along with a guest worker program and/or a path to citizenship"

Americans don't want "path to citizenship' for illegal invaders of our country.
That is why our House members who voted for enforcement only, and no amnesty, have received very strong support their constituents.
Remember the House is far more representative of the American people, and more in tune with what Americans want, than the Senate, and every House member is up for re-election in November.
There will be no guest worker/amnesty program. Period.

[MACVSOG68]

Americans don't want "path to citizenship' for illegal invaders of our country.

So then those polls are incorrect?

Remember the House is far more representative of the American people, and more in tune with what Americans want, than the Senate, and every House member is up for re-election in November.

So the polls are not correct? You posted a lot of polls, so I thought you believed in polls. You have not countered anything I have said or showed you concerning the polls. Yet out of the blue you make a statement that directly conflicts with all of the polls. Is that how you consider you have won the debate? Put polls out there and then refuse to discuss them when they show your position is wrong?

There will be no guest worker/amnesty program. Period.

Then there will be no immigration bill. Period.

[Jameison]

"Most Americans support some type of program to give certain illegals a path to citizenship if they meet certain requirements and pay penalties, so that does not conflict."

Nope.
And that poll you put that under says:

"Sixty-three percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed oppose amnesty for illegal immigrants if they only need to prove that they have been living in the U.S. for at least three years. National Federation of Independent Business Research Foundation Member Survey on Immigration, April 4, 2006"

Nothing about amnesty for anyone.



"Then raise the minimum wage and implement tougher enforcement. Most are working for minimum wage or slightly higher. ."

There you go again.
Illegal alien pay has got nothing to do with minimum wage.
Its precisely to avoid paying even the minimum wage that dishonest employers keep employing illegals so they can pay them below the minimum wage, without worrying about penalties.


"Few Americans will work for even 10 or 12 dollar an hour as the contractors in New Orleans found out"

Huh?
That is utter rubbish.
Is your name John McCain?
There are MILLIONS of Americans that work for 10 or 12 dollars an hour.

[LNewman]

Agreed. They are their own little cottage industry.

My fair little part of town now has a gang unit, a graffitti hot line, a shopping cart retrieval service, a couple barricaded streets (due to drive bys), WIC store fronts, multiple "clinicas," and charities on every other corner dueling for government grants. Streets littered with garbage, bumper-to-bumper parking, loitering "day workers," packed-to-the-doors public transportation, overcrowded substandard schools (IMO little more than taxpayer-sponsored anchor baby day care with a little ESL instruction tossed into the mix), and "depressed" housing prices (comparable to other local areas). And did I mention our merry band of beret-wearing Che-wannabe half wits that parade around town with pre-fab ANSWER LA communist propaganda swill?

Lovely, charming people with great family values. /sarc

[Jameison]

"So the polls are not correct? "

The best polls are what the majority of consitituents tell their congressmen, who are up for re-election in November,in very strong terms.

Even SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R), TEXAS, who is a Senator has had an earful from fer up constituents, who are overwhelmingly AGINST amnesty as in:



DOBBS: And senator, Senator McCain is saying you are doing the will of the American people. Where in the world -- what planet is he on?

HUTCHISON: Well, Lou, I think that he's very sincere, and I think that...

DOBBS: Well, I am not talking about his sincerity. I am sure he is sincere. I am just asking where in the world is his attachment to reality?

HUTCHISON: Well, it's not what I am hearing from my constituents. I have been doing phone tallies, of course, to know where people are, e-mails, faxes and phone tallies. And this week I had 1,578 call in against the bill and 12 called in for it. That's what I'm hearing everywhere I go.

Polls are fine, but even more important is what constituents tell their congressmen, and the actual voting in November.

[MACVSOG68]

Nope. And that poll you put that under says:

"Sixty-three percent of NFIB small-business owners surveyed oppose amnesty for illegal immigrants if they only need to prove that they have been living in the U.S. for at least three years.

That differs from what I said. That is not what is in the Senate package. In addition to proving you have lived here for three years, you must pay fines, back taxes, learn English, and have no criminal record. That is what Americans want as reflected in the polls.

Nothing about amnesty for anyone.There you go again. Illegal alien pay has got nothing to do with minimum wage. Its precisely to avoid paying even the minimum wage that dishonest employers keep employing illegals so they can pay them below the minimum wage, without worrying about penalties.

It has to do with both, which is why I said raise the minimum wage and good enforcement. Both would be necessary, because most Americans will not work for minimum wage or anything close.

Huh? That is utter rubbish. Is your name John McCain? There are MILLIONS of Americans that work for 10 or 12 dollars an hour.

Yes, and many more who won't touch a job for that. As I said, illegals are working for that in New Orleans in spite of the fact that evacuees were to be given first refusal, which most did. Most evacuees, in fact, didn't want to work in New Orleans for any amount of money.

[Jameison]

"Yes, and many more who won't touch a job for that"

This is what you said before:

"Few Americans will work for even 10 or 12 dollar an hour as the contractors in New Orleans found out".

Now you are shifting position from that and saying "Yes, and many more who won't touch a job for that"?

Million's of Americans working for 10-12 hours per hour is not "few will work for 10-12 hours per hour".

But just keep the nonsense coming will ya?

[investigateworld]

Then there will be no immigration bill. Period.

So we can look forward to seeing minimal enforcement of our laws as usual?

[MACVSOG68]

The best polls are what the majority of consitituents tell their congressmen, who are up for re-election in November,in very strong terms.

Ok, I think I understand now. The polls you posted were all good, but the polls from May and June are irrelevant because polls are not as good as constituent feedback. Gotcha!

A 2 minute discussion with Lou Dobbs throws out every poll...except yours.

If Ted Kennedy cited that 95% of his constituents were in favor of a guest worker program, would you then conclude that the information was more reliable than random polls? Or is it just certain senators whose calls are reliable?

[Jameison]

"It has to do with both, which is why I said raise the minimum wage and good enforcement. Both would be necessary, because most Americans will not work for minimum wage or anything close"

No it doesn't.
And raising the minimum wage has nothing to do with it.
Raising minimum wages don't create jobs, and sometimes result in job losses.
Just ask Germany and most of Europe.
And again , millions of Americans DO WORK the legal minimum wages.
Illegals are employed by unscrupulous businessmen precisely because they can get away with paying them less than the minimum wages.

[MACVSOG68]

Now you are shifting position from that and saying "Yes, and many more who won't touch a job for that"?

Since we were discussing the unemployed or underemployed, I assumed you understood that was the issue, but I apologize for giving you credit for understanding what we were talking about. You are truly grasping at straws now. Do you have anything relevant on the issue itself, or do you want to continue discussing me?

[MACVSOG68]

So we can look forward to seeing minimal enforcement of our laws as usual?

Going after 20 million illegal aliens will take a massive effort unparalleled in this country. Sealing the border perhaps as massive. Anything meaningful will take a comprehensive approach by Congress. I don't see it happening, so we will likely have to be happy seeing 15 here, 20 here, while a hundred times as many continue to pour in.

[Jameison]

"Ok, I think I understand now. The polls you posted were all good"

The polls I posted are fine. Thsy serve a purpose.
That doesn't mean they trump what constituents are telling their congressmen, or trump the real elections in November.
At the end of the day, politicians want to get elected.
If the vast majority of their constituents want amnesty, they will vote for amnesty.
The fact being that overwhelmingly, Republican congressmen have their constituents tell them they are totally against any amnesty for illegals whatsoever.
In the case of SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, it's running up to over 95% against from her constituents. Similar story with most Republican congressmen
Congressmen are elected to do what their constituents want, not what Vicenete Fox dictates from Mexico.

[Jameison]

"Going after 20 million illegal aliens will take a massive effort unparalleled in this country"

True.
But no one is suggesting it can all be done today, in one fell swoop. But it can be done.
We did the Normandy landings, built the Panama Canal, after the French had given up, put a man on she moon, etc.
They all took massive unparalleled efforts.

But more importantly that 12 million is a straw man's argument, as Thomas Sowell put it so succinctly here:

"Yet another insult to our intelligence is saying that, since we cannot find and deport 12 million people, the only choice left is to find some way to make them legal. There is probably no category of law-breakers -- from counterfeiters to burglars or from jay-walkers to murderers -- who can all be found and arrested. But no one suggests that we must therefore make what they have done legal. Such an argument would suggest that there is nothing in between 100 percent effective law enforcement and zero percent effective law enforcement.
The reverse twist on this argument is that suddenly taking 12 million people out of the labor force would disrupt the economy. No one has ever said -- or probably even dreamed -- that we could suddenly find all 12 million illegal immigrants at once and send them all home immediately. This is another straw man argument. The real question is what we do with whatever illegal aliens we do find. Right now, there are various communities around the country where local officials have a policy of forbidding the police from reporting illegal immigrants to federal authorities."

[MACVSOG68]

But more importantly that 12 million is a straw man's argument, as Thomas Sowell put it so succinctly here:
"Yet another insult to our intelligence is saying that, since we cannot find and deport 12 million people, the only choice left is to find some way to make them legal.

Two points, First it is not 12 million, but closer to 20 million. Second, as much as I like Thomas Sowell, there are several good reasons, not simply because we would never be able to round up 20 million assimilated immigrants. First, it would take a police state effort and Americans simply don't want that. Second, it will be akin to body count in Vietnam. We will go after the low hanging fruit first, meaning those who are actually here working with families, not the drug runners, gang members and others engaging in illegal operations. Third, without a carrot and stick approach, we will simply drive more of them underground, since they effectively have nothing to go home to. Fourth, the churches will provide safe haven should we make any kind of a large scale effort at catching and deporting. Fifth, the court system will have to be enlarged dramatically to handle 20 million cases even over 20 to 30 years. Sixth, many communities will simply refuse to cooperate with this effort. Thunderstorm. More later.

[MACVSOG68]

Continuing. Seventh, any massive effort will take critical resources away from Homeland Security/WOT efforts with the Country, instead going after working immigrants posing no threat. Eighth, if documentation past the SSN card and I-9 will be required, it must be part of a major package of legislation by Congress. If employers will be required to ensure that an employee is legal other than a SSN card and I-9, courts likely will reject them doing the government's work for it. Finally, without border security and other enforcement tools, this will never be done. To get them, a comprehensive package must be agreed upon, and that requires negotiation which so far, the Republicans have refused to do. I cannot but believe that most voters will see this recalcitrance to engage in meaninful legislation in place of Terri Schiavo, flag and marriage amendments and other sense of Congress items having nothing to do with what they were elected to do.

[Jameison]

"Two points, First it is not 12 million, but closer to 20 million."

They are estimates.
No one has exact figures.
But more than that, the point still remains, 12 million or 20 million.

"not simply because we would never be able to round up 20 million assimilated immigrants. "

We don't have to. It's the normal straw man's argument.
It's not a matter of rounding up 12/20 million or not rounding up anyone at all.
You guys keep coming up with that nonsense.
Look we never catch everyone who commits murder or robbery in this country.
That doesn't mean we have just stopped trying to arrest them because we can't catch all of them, does it?

"First, it would take a police state effort and Americans simply don't want that. "

Police state?
When did arresting people who shouldn't be in a country at all, and who have broken our laws, constitute that country becoming a "police state"?
Where do you Mexicans keep coming up with this nonsense anyways? Why don't you tell that to the Mexican government that continues to terrorize illegal Guatemalan immigrants to Mexico?

"Second, it will be akin to body count in Vietnam. "

Huh?
Vietnam eh?
/sarc on You mean like how Iraq is another Vietnam? /sarc off


"We will go after the low hanging fruit first, meaning those who are actually here working with families, not the drug runners, gang members and others engaging in illegal operations"

You are really clutching at straws ain't ya?
Low hanging fruit?
Listen, right now a greater percentage of criminal illegal immigrant drug runners, gang members etc, are being deported than illegal immigrants in general.
When the right enforcement regime is instituted (harsh crackdown on employers of illegals, tough deportation regime, secure borders etc), all illegals are going to be affected, drug dealers or not.


"Third, without a carrot and stick approach, we will simply drive more of them underground, since they effectively have nothing to go home to."

Nonsense.
President Eisenhower instigated a strong enforcement regime, and managed to deport most of the Mexicans back where they came from.
These illegals are not exactly "underground" are they, when they keep demonstrating in full view of the public, and have the temerity to carry American flags upside down to boot.



"Fourth, the churches will provide safe haven should we make any kind of a large scale effort at catching and deporting"

Churches have room for 12 million?
Or according to you 20 million people?
Where are all those churches at?
And I can tell you one thing, my church is not going in for that BS.
We'd chase the priest off if he pulled such a stupid stunt.
You seem to be forgetting that most church goers in this country are Evangelical Christians who are strongly conservative, and strongly FOR enforcement of our immigration laws.
The Republican Party gets most of the Evangelical Christian vote.
Best luck to you finding churches to hold your 20 million illegals.

"Fifth, the court system will have to be enlarged dramatically to handle 20 million cases even over 20 to 30 years."

Nope.
We have been deporting illegals everyday without going through any court systems.
All they have to do is stop that moronic catch and release policy they have been allowing to happen, which the President claims he is stoppingin his speech the other time.


"Sixth, many communities will simply refuse to cooperate with this effort"

You have not been listening to the news recently.

Every week, another city, town, state, county enacts new, tougher anti-illegal immigrant laws.
One police chief was on TV Friday, who is busy arresting every illegal immigrant he could get hold of, and sending them all the way to th Mexican border, because the INS people have not been doing their job.

The illegal invaders of this country are going to have to be sent home or made to go home, one way or another, and the border secured.