Posted on 07/15/2006 6:57:53 AM PDT by grannylady
I think this is where we started. So you disagree with the poll findings?
We will continue to disagree. You will speak out for what you want, and I will continue to do speak out for my side of it. I'm sure we will meet again on subsequent threads. Take care now.
As I have patiently explained to you before, the study performed by Bear Sterns, which is to the best of my knowledge the most comprehensive study of illegals and can be easily read, estimates a minimum of 20 million. I will go with that unless you have something better.
We don't have to. It's the normal straw man's argument. It's not a matter of rounding up 12/20 million or not rounding up anyone at all. You guys keep coming up with that nonsense. Look we never catch everyone who commits murder or robbery in this country. That doesn't mean we have just stopped trying to arrest them because we can't catch all of them, does it?
I suppose any argument against your proposal is a straw man. Anyway, part of your plan is to turn 5% of the Country into felons. That means a little more than you have thought out. It means we are able to concentrate on those who truly are posing a danger. To those on your side of the issue, they're all the same.
Police state? When did arresting people who shouldn't be in a country at all, and who have broken our laws, constitute that country becoming a "police state"? Where do you Mexicans keep coming up with this nonsense anyways? Why don't you tell that to the Mexican government that continues to terrorize illegal Guatemalan immigrants to Mexico?
I'm a Mexican? How on earth did you find out? Actually there are 3 or 4 whites left in the Country with some common sense about this issue. And yes, declaring 20 million illegals felons would require a police state, especially when the only way it will ever be successful is to mobilize the Reserves and National Guard. The 100k police in the Country won't really have too much success here.
Huh? Vietnam eh? /sarc on You mean like how Iraq is another Vietnam? /sarc off
Quit acting like a fool. Do you understand the concept of body count? No, I guess not. Ok, look in a history book. This will wind up a "body count" game, which leads into the low hanging fruit.
Listen, right now a greater percentage of criminal illegal immigrant drug runners, gang members etc, are being deported than illegal immigrants in general. When the right enforcement regime is instituted (harsh crackdown on employers of illegals, tough deportation regime, secure borders etc), all illegals are going to be affected, drug dealers or not.
Right, which takes us back to the police state concept. That's the only way you will meaningfully find and deport 5% of the Country.
These illegals are not exactly "underground" are they, when they keep demonstrating in full view of the public, and have the temerity to carry American flags upside down to boot.
So you simply stop all demonstrators and demand their citizenship papers? Ever heard of the 1st, 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments?
We'd chase the priest off if he pulled such a stupid stunt. You seem to be forgetting that most church goers in this country are Evangelical Christians who are strongly conservative, and strongly FOR enforcement of our immigration laws. The Republican Party gets most of the Evangelical Christian vote. Best luck to you finding churches to hold your 20 million illegals.
Many churches have already spoken out on this. And yes, they will help to provide food, medicine, shelter and other assistance to the illegals. Been reading the papers lately? Yes, I keep hearing about the fundies supporting the Republican Party. Not worried, they have no place else to go. But yes, I'm also aware of the reality of why the House won't create a win-win situation out of immigration, and instead worries about Terri Schiavo, flag and marriage amendments, sense of the Congress statements, etc., instead of doing their jobs.
Nope. We have been deporting illegals everyday without going through any court systems. All they have to do is stop that moronic catch and release policy they have been allowing to happen, which the President claims he is stoppingin his speech the other time.
Again, the change in status to felony will be challenged in court, and significantly complicate finding and deporting them. This is basically forcing them further underground.
Every week, another city, town, state, county enacts new, tougher anti-illegal immigrant laws. One police chief was on TV Friday, who is busy arresting every illegal immigrant he could get hold of, and sending them all the way to th Mexican border, because the INS people have not been doing their job.
First, this is an unfunded mandate. Catching a couple of illegals is cute. Going after 20 million is an abortion, and few police chiefs will carry the feds water for them. And more and more communities, not just the one or two I have read about will become safe havens. Many have already said so. Many will open their churches, their schools, their medical facilities, and laugh at the part of 4437 that charges people for aiding illegals. What do we want to do, create 50 million felons?
The illegal invaders of this country are going to have to be sent home or made to go home, one way or another, and the border secured.
Well, not sure how, because you are not going to get either authorization or funding if you won't compromise.
Nonsense. Have you read Holy War on the Home Front by Harvey Kushner? Almost all terrorists come into the Country legally. Most who go across the border come here either for economic reasons or to join families.
We haven't even talked about the over $60 Billion worth of illegal drugs that these illegal immigrants keep bringing into our country through the Mexican border.
Nothing I support prevents that. In fact, as I have told you, the border must be sealed first.
In addition, of course they are threat to this country, our jails are full of illegal immigrants who have committed every crime you can think of. And the fact that we haven't caught someone yet, doesn't necessarily mean they haven't carried out any crime either.
So we assume 20 million illegals are criminals too? Well, since you are making them felons, I guess you are rights. You really have no idea what a threat terrorism is to this Nation, do you? You are too wrapped up in deporting 20 million Mexicans, that terrorists can come later.
We don't need no Social Security cards for no illegals, and the US Senate's attempt to simply forgive illegals who have stolen American's id's, and carried out Social Security fraud by buying fake social security cards, is one of the most heinous parts of this Senate bill, given that even American citizens that carry out such crimes are charged in court and sent to jail. No Social Security for illegals.
So what's your plan for requiring employers, states, local governments, schools, etc to help the feds carry their water for them?
We don't need a new bill to deport illegals, or even secure the borders or deal harshly with employers who employ illegals. We have laws on the books for all that. The House Bill will simply strengthen our hand and make enforcement considerably better and tougher. Meanwhile, congress has even allocated funds for extra border guards, which the Bush people have still not fully implemented.
Well then that's good, because no bill will be passed, nor will any meaningful funding without a compromise. Glad your plan will work.
Heck, I didn't know rounding up 20 million illegals was that simple. But I hope you can do it without legislation.
Well, it's there now, and I didn't realize the House Republicans were going to reconsider 4437? Obviously if they ever meet in conference, it will not survive.
# 2. Illegals in this country can't go "further " underground , since they are not underground at all right now as we speak. Their rabid demonstrations in April showed how much confidence they have in arrogantly and openly flouting our laws.
You may want to think about what assimilation is. The best part of our military ground forces cannot find either Mullah Omar or UBL. The reason is because they have the support of the local populace and are well assimilated. That is one reason it will be difficult if not impossible to find any but the most vulnerable, those with families, essentially the low hanging fruit.
I agree, which is what my point was.
Nope, hit the wrong key. My mistake. Still, hopefully it's only 20 million.
Well, that's what ya got. So good luck.
Actually no I don't. Your bill presumes that we can end illegal immigration and deport those here. Are you suggesting this bill won't actually do that? Will we pick and choose which felons we go after?
You'd be surprised. I am wiling to bet I know quite a bit more about about terrorism and terrisitsrist than you do.
Considering what I've read so far, yes I'd be dramatically surprised. Because most I have run into who actually understand the mission, history and goals of the Islamic Brotherhood somehow consider them to be the greatest threat to this Country.
Again. Normal straw man's argument. The 2 are not mutually exclusive. More than that, they are intertwined. Easiest way for terrorists to enter this country without our government having any idea that they are here is through the open borders.
Again, though you claim expertise in terrorism, you seem oblivious to the fact that few if any come into this Country across the Mexican border. Almost all come in with visas. But then since you know a lot more about it than do I, you already knew that.
And by refusing to negotiate with half of Congress, where do you suppose this determination and political will will come from? You will have to do it with current resources and current procedures and laws. You seem to think that the red state conservative congressmen run Congress. They don't. They are part of it, and all the wailing will not change that.
I along with most Americans want comprehensive immigration reform that recognizes that no one is going to seriously catch and send back 20 million illegals. The President understands that. You guys will prevent any meaningful legislation, thereby assuring that the problem only compounds. Apparently this will take a whole new Congress which may take years.
That has never been the way we measure success in any policing work in this country.
Actually, all police forces have measures of success, whether you want to call them quotas on tickets, prosecutions, number of arrests for prostitution, etc. It exists, and most know it. This will be no different. "Body Count".
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