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Black Hat with a Vista twist
CNet ^ | 1 August 2006 | Joris Evers

Posted on 08/01/2006 10:41:56 AM PDT by ShadowAce

The annual security conference traditionally focuses on hunting for bugs and attacking computer systems. At the 2006 event this week, however, an entire track will be devoted to the security--rather than the insecurity--of Windows Vista and Internet Explorer 7. The series of sessions will be hosted by Microsoft, a major sponsor of the event this year.

It's an unprecedented and comprehensive first-look at the security in Vista and its associated Web browser, Black Hat Director Jeff Moss said in an interview Monday. "Even if attendees are not getting three different ways to hack into IE 7, they get the back story," he said.

Microsoft says it is the first in the history of Black Hat Briefings to present an entire track on a prerelease product. It has talked up Vista as its most secure operating system ever, and has said that security was the No. 1 investment in IE 7.

It's a sign of development at the event, which brings together the hacker and corporate worlds for two days of talks in Las Vegas. The tenth Black Hat promises to be special, Moss said. "It is the largest show ever in terms of size and attendees," he said. Moss sold rights to the conference to technology publisher CMP Media in November, but he still runs the event.

Black Hat has been around since 1997. The event has traditionally focused on exposing flaws in software and on sharing hacker tools. "We always tried to be more practical--watch a talk, go home and do something," Moss said. "We try to stay away from the purely academic area."

This year's confab is expected to draw about 3,000 people, a mix of security professionals, underground hackers, federal agents and vendors. It will be followed by the DefCon, a gathering infamous for its hacker activity.

"We really seem to reach critical mass this year," Moss said. "Every year, it has always been incremental growth, primarily through word of mouth. This year, we grew over 20 percent, and that has never happened before." Moss attributes the increase in registrations to the high profile of the event as well as to a rising interest in security.

Uneasy bedfellows
Microsoft is not the only major technology company with a big presence at Black Hat. Cisco Systems has signed on as a "Platinum Sponsor," alongside Microsoft and consultancy firm Ernst & Young. Last year, Cisco drew the ire of many Black Hat and DefCon attendees when it sued a security researcher and conference organizers after a session on router security.

The legal action followed a presentation by researcher Michael Lynn, who demonstrated he could gain control of a Cisco router by exploiting a known security flaw in Cisco's Internetwork Operating System. The operating system had until then been perceived as impervious to such attacks.

Cisco and Internet Security Systems--Lynn's employer--had agreed to pull the presentation, but Lynn quit his job and gave the talk anyway. Cisco and ISS sued Lynn after his presentation, and hackers rallied behind the researcher.

This year, Cisco is playing nice. In addition to its sponsorship, the company is sending Chief Security Officer John Stewart to talk about relationships between vendors and security researchers. The networking giant is also throwing a party for Black Hat attendees at Pure, the night club at Caesars Palace.

Still, Black Hat wouldn't be Black Hat without the usual exposure of security flaws and release of details of new hacker techniques. Researchers are slated to demonstrate 25 new tools and outline 15 new exploits at the event, according to organizers.

Special attention is going to security risks associated with Web 2.0, which covers more-advanced Web sites that use programming techniques such as AJAX and JavaScript. Also on the calendar are presentations on rootkits, security in voice services and, as in previous years, database security.

In the networking area, one technology to be scrutinized is network admission control (NAC). Ofir Arkin, chief technology officer at Insightix, plans to disclose weaknesses in NAC systems, which are designed to restrict access to a network according to identity or the security status of a computer. Cisco and Microsoft are two major NAC players.

"These flaws allow the complete bypass of each and every network access control mechanism currently offered on the market," according to the Black Hat calendar.

Some of the presentations are generating buzz, and some presenters have changed or quit jobs to be able to present, Moss said. He doesn't expect there to be any legal wrangling. But, then again, "I didn't know I was going to get sued last year," Moss said.

Black Hat takes place Wednesday and Thursday, then DefCon runs Friday through Sunday.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: bestofgoldeneagle; hugh; security; series; vista; windows

1 posted on 08/01/2006 10:41:57 AM PDT by ShadowAce
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To: rdb3; chance33_98; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Bush2000; PenguinWry; GodGunsandGuts; CyberCowboy777; ...

2 posted on 08/01/2006 10:42:13 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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Insanity.


3 posted on 08/01/2006 11:08:34 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: ShadowAce

DefCon...heh heh...oh, the memories...Jeff is an old friend of mine...


4 posted on 08/01/2006 11:08:34 AM PDT by TampaDude (If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the PROBLEM!!!)
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To: ShadowAce

Microsoft needs the hackers to tell Microsoft about security flaws first instead of them open-sourcing exploit code directly to the internet. This is their attempt to build relationships, and co-opt or undermine the black hat conference if nothing else.


5 posted on 08/01/2006 11:13:55 AM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: ShadowAce

I like this move by Microsoft and, despite all the smack that gets talked about hackers here, I think the hacker community will really help them tighten down IE..


6 posted on 08/01/2006 11:53:33 AM PDT by N3WBI3 ("I can kill you with my brain" - River Tam)
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To: N3WBI3; Golden Eagle
...I think the hacker community will really help them tighten down IE..

That was really my point about posting this article. I'm hoping that MS will now start to take security (and the methods for finding leaks) seriously. THis move indicates they are finally starting to learn from the people who can do this better than they can in-house.

7 posted on 08/01/2006 12:01:18 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce

LOL Shadow, GE, and me all agreeing on the same post....


8 posted on 08/01/2006 1:41:39 PM PDT by N3WBI3 ("I can kill you with my brain" - River Tam)
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To: N3WBI3

did hell just freeze over? what just happened?


9 posted on 08/01/2006 2:05:06 PM PDT by postaldave (McCain & Bush, you traitorous !#!$!!s. you two are no different then ted kennedy.)
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To: postaldave; N3WBI3; ShadowAce; Golden Eagle; MikefromOhio

Must be.

GE actually has made a valid point...

This one's a keeper


10 posted on 08/01/2006 2:38:57 PM PDT by rzeznikj at stout (ASCII and ye shall receive... (II Computers 3:14))
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To: rzeznikj at stout; postaldave; N3WBI3; ShadowAce; Golden Eagle

It was 100 outside earlier....

Now it's a balmy 15 below zero....

Thanks guys.....


<< time to go scrape my car windows >>


11 posted on 08/01/2006 2:43:58 PM PDT by MikefromOhio
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To: MikefromOhio

LOL


12 posted on 08/01/2006 2:45:04 PM PDT by rzeznikj at stout (ASCII and ye shall receive... (II Computers 3:14))
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To: Irish_Thatcherite

Hell hath froze over!!


13 posted on 08/01/2006 2:45:58 PM PDT by rzeznikj at stout (ASCII and ye shall receive... (II Computers 3:14))
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To: rzeznikj at stout

It has gotten cooler and less humid over here... coincidence? ;)


14 posted on 08/01/2006 2:51:28 PM PDT by Irish_Thatcherite (A vote for Bertie Ahern is a vote for Gerry Adams!|The IRA are actually terrorists, any questions?)
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To: Irish_Thatcherite

African monkeys are at a loss in understanding the new weather patterns.


15 posted on 08/01/2006 2:54:59 PM PDT by postaldave (McCain & Bush, you traitorous !#!$!!s. you two are no different then ted kennedy.)
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To: rzeznikj at stout; postaldave; N3WBI3; ShadowAce; Golden Eagle

see what you people caused. oh the poor monkeys.


16 posted on 08/01/2006 2:56:08 PM PDT by postaldave (McCain & Bush, you traitorous !#!$!!s. you two are no different then ted kennedy.)
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To: postaldave; Swordmaker

In the words of one of Swordmaker's taglines: AIEEEEEEEE!! 8^)


17 posted on 08/01/2006 2:59:02 PM PDT by rzeznikj at stout (ASCII and ye shall receive... (II Computers 3:14))
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To: postaldave

18 posted on 08/01/2006 2:59:12 PM PDT by postaldave (McCain & Bush, you traitorous !#!$!!s. you two are no different then ted kennedy.)
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To: postaldave

"Global Warming types out of work."


19 posted on 08/01/2006 3:11:43 PM PDT by Irish_Thatcherite (A vote for Bertie Ahern is a vote for Gerry Adams!|The IRA are actually terrorists, any questions?)
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To: JRios1968; antiRepublicrat; zeugma

Hey, it finally happened...8^)


20 posted on 08/01/2006 3:27:27 PM PDT by rzeznikj at stout (ASCII and ye shall receive... (II Computers 3:14))
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To: rzeznikj at stout; MikefromOhio

Oh no!! This is SERIES!!


21 posted on 08/01/2006 3:30:33 PM PDT by JRios1968 (There's 3 kinds of people in this world...those who know math and those who don't.)
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To: JRios1968; MikefromOhio

And HUGH!!


22 posted on 08/01/2006 3:31:21 PM PDT by rzeznikj at stout (ASCII and ye shall receive... (II Computers 3:14))
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To: rzeznikj at stout; MikefromOhio

I am stuned!


23 posted on 08/01/2006 3:33:54 PM PDT by JRios1968 (There's 3 kinds of people in this world...those who know math and those who don't.)
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To: JRios1968

Check your FReepmail


24 posted on 08/01/2006 3:34:19 PM PDT by MikefromOhio
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To: JRios1968; MikefromOhio

And most of us here...8^)


25 posted on 08/01/2006 3:38:12 PM PDT by rzeznikj at stout (ASCII and ye shall receive... (II Computers 3:14))
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To: N3WBI3

Microsoft is only doing this because they feel they have to. I prefer the option of agreesive law enforcement, and arresting those who create exploit code for unpatched vulnerabilities, but right now law enforcement can't bear that load. They will one day, when the right person gets hacked.


26 posted on 08/01/2006 3:45:54 PM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
MS will get a better insight as to the flaws in their product and how people will exploit them during this one conference than they would in a whole year looking at it themselves. Passing this up would be plain stupid.

I am all for you when it comes to legally going after people who exploit without permission the systems of others (no matter what their supposed motivation). But doing internal security research and then saying 'hey I found out there is this big error in IE7' should never be illegal. I would not go about it quite that way (I would always give the vendor a heads up but if the problem is not addressed I would feel obligated to let the public know)
27 posted on 08/01/2006 6:42:15 PM PDT by N3WBI3 ("I can kill you with my brain" - River Tam)
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To: Golden Eagle
Well, they certainly have the laws in place already if they ever decide to make it a top priority. These days, given the laws on the books, hackers, if caught and prosecuted, will do more time than someone convicted of physically assaulting someone, or someone convicted of rape.

I think society in general will have to be a little bit more serious in a proactive sense about computer security. When people understand the risks and dangers of computer crime better, perhaps we'll see a better effort made at actually prosecuting computer crime.

I think one reason that you don't see it now, is that for many people, even if they use computers regularly, a computer is an unknowable black box. The same is much the case today with automobiles, but we've been around them longer and society has a more developed sense about law and order surrounding them, and in fact had originally carried many of the traditions surrounding the horse and buggy era that preceeded the wide use of automobiles. Most people know to get the oil, tires, and brakes checked on a more or less regular basis, but haven't a clue about much more than that. There are exceptions to this, obviously or there wouldn't be mechanic or backyard tinkerers, but they are exceptions rather than the general rule.

 Much the same thing could be said about people and computers today. The problem is, that not enough people have learned the computer equivalent of oil changes and break/tire checks. In the interconnected world we live in today, this puts everyone at risk. I am affected by the bozo with a cablemodem who's computer is p0wned by a hacker ring running out of russia that is using his computer to generate spam that I have to deal with, both on my mailservers, and in my inbox. Its the cyber-equivalent to the bozo driving down the street on bald tires and no breaks who is a direct physical danger to everyone around him. Perhaps a better analogy would be the guy driving down the street belching smoke that practically suffocates you if you are unfortunately to be driving behind him.

I suspect that eventually there will be laws and other regulations about computing whereby the user will be held liable to some degree for leaving his system wide open to attackers, in much the same way that you can be fined for leaving the keys in your ignition in many Amerian jurisdictions. There is a specific legal term for this, that escapes me at the moment, (I'm sure someone will remember for me.), but it is similar in a way to the concept of 'enticement'.


I think it is going to take a while for us to catch up to some of he new threats and responsibilities that come from being a networked, computing society.

28 posted on 08/01/2006 7:14:10 PM PDT by zeugma (I reject your reality and substitute my own in its place. (http://www.zprc.org/))
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To: MikefromOhio

Check!


29 posted on 08/01/2006 8:20:06 PM PDT by JRios1968 (There's 3 kinds of people in this world...those who know math and those who don't.)
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To: N3WBI3
I am all for you when it comes to legally going after people who exploit without permission the systems of others (no matter what their supposed motivation).

I agree, with the exception of our military who may do such things against foreign adversaries, at the time of war or in response to hack attempts made against us.

But doing internal security research and then saying 'hey I found out there is this big error in IE7' should never be illegal. I would not go about it quite that way (I would always give the vendor a heads up but if the problem is not addressed I would feel obligated to let the public know)

Finding the holes shouldn't be illegal, but reporting them publicly without first notifying the vendor, or even worse releasing exploit code prior to the vendor having time to develop a patch, should be.

30 posted on 08/02/2006 7:54:19 AM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: zeugma
I think society in general will have to be a little bit more serious in a proactive sense about computer security. When people understand the risks and dangers of computer crime better, perhaps we'll see a better effort made at actually prosecuting computer crime.

Absolutely, we're not there yet. But as the quantity of crimes continues to rise, so will the quantity of prosecutions.

I am affected by the bozo with a cablemodem who's computer is p0wned by a hacker ring running out of russia that is using his computer to generate spam that I have to deal with, both on my mailservers, and in my inbox. Its the cyber-equivalent to the bozo driving down the street on bald tires and no breaks who is a direct physical danger to everyone around him.

Excellent analogy.

I suspect that eventually there will be laws and other regulations about computing whereby the user will be held liable to some degree for leaving his system wide open to attackers, in much the same way that you can be fined for leaving the keys in your ignition in many Amerian jurisdictions.

Possible, but the charges against someone leaving their keys in their car won't be as severe as the charges against a person who may have stolen the car.

I think it is going to take a while for us to catch up to some of he new threats and responsibilities that come from being a networked, computing society.

It'll turn out like everything else. Want something good, reliable, and safe? You'll have to open your wallet, or be such an expert you can build and maintain it yourself, which is getting harder and harder even with cars.

31 posted on 08/02/2006 8:07:38 AM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
publicly without first notifying the vendor

I would say this should not be done, but not that it should be illegal to do otherwise. Setting this up sets a precedent where a company can produce an unsafe product and when the defect is found the public is not made aware of the problem *or* how to protect themselves from harm.

Imagine if I found a serious defect in a baby car seat model and could not make it public without the OK of the manufacturer? sure my butt would be covered but that would be little comfort to someone who lost a baby in the time it took me to report it to the company and the company decided whether is was worth it to recall or take the risk of being sued.

Why should a computer system be any different? Computers run hospitals, banks, and medical research facilities. Were not just talking about the risk of losing money when a computer defect causes a problem we could be talking about lives!

32 posted on 08/02/2006 8:23:08 AM PDT by N3WBI3 ("I can kill you with my brain" - River Tam)
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To: N3WBI3
Imagine if I found a serious defect in a baby car seat model and could not make it public without the OK of the manufacturer? sure my butt would be covered but that would be little comfort to someone who lost a baby in the time it took me to report it to the company and the company decided whether is was worth it to recall or take the risk of being sued. Why should a computer system be any different?

Because, the fault in the baby seat cannot be used by criminals to steal from or destroy others, purposefully. The baby seat requires an arbitrary accident to occur, but doesn't invite others to crash into the car to invoke it, whereas the disclosure of a vulnerability or hack does encourage those who look for such things to plan to use them immediately on unsuspecting innocents.

33 posted on 08/02/2006 8:42:30 AM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
whereas the disclosure of a vulnerability or hack does encourage those who look for such things to plan to use them immediately on unsuspecting innocents.

And the non disclosure of such a hack keeps people from knowing there system is open for attack when that hack may already be know by thousands of criminals! Its pure stupidity to assume because I one does not tell the general public about a vulnerability the hacker community wont know about it. Hell, if I was a black hat hacker I would *not* want the bug disclosed to the general public. The longer that only the vendor knows about it the longer I have a victim set completely unaware their house has no front door!

The argument that when we make something illegal criminals wont have it is the same argument gun grabbers use. But the truth is when we take away information about system vulnerabilities from people *only* criminals will have it!

34 posted on 08/02/2006 8:49:21 AM PDT by N3WBI3 ("I can kill you with my brain" - River Tam)
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To: N3WBI3
Its pure stupidity to assume because I one does not tell the general public about a vulnerability the hacker community wont know about it.

LOL, no it's obviously more ignorant to claim the hackers will know about it anyway so you might as well tell them. It's the same argument we hear from those that want us to share all our nuclear secrets with China and Russia. "Why not, they'll get them anyway by stealing, might as well just go ahead and give em to them." Wait, you say the same thing about open source software, don't you.

The argument that when we make something illegal criminals wont have it is the same argument gun grabbers use.

Another failed analogy of yours, with you talking in circles now. Guns are a completely usable finished product, used legally for many authorized purposes. Vulnerabilities aren't guns, they're like a blueprint for making a gun. The only equivalent to guns in this discussion are exploits, but you just said above that there were no good uses of exploits, remember, so why would anyone but criminals have a need for them.

35 posted on 08/02/2006 9:12:53 AM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
Guns are a completely usable finished product, used legally for many authorized purposes.

Guns, like information, can be used for both legal and illegal purposes, both attack and defense. You attempt to ignore the percent of people who use the illegally to break an apt analogy is pretty transparent. An IT administrator can use that information to protect against the attack of someone else who has it, leaving IT administrators without information is like leaving them unarmed..

36 posted on 08/02/2006 9:24:56 AM PDT by N3WBI3 ("I can kill you with my brain" - River Tam)
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To: N3WBI3
An IT administrator can use that information to protect against the attack of someone else who has it, leaving IT administrators without information is like leaving them unarmed..

You want to help the hackers build an arms race on both sides. A better solution is to annihilate the hackers, and you don't do that by feeding them vulnerabilities. You feed them patches, and catch anyone who cracks it.

37 posted on 08/02/2006 9:39:08 AM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
You feed them patches, and catch anyone who cracks it.

The problem with that is you inherently trust the vendor. Several companies have been known to sit on information that shows their product to have been cracked, and until the information went public, they did nothing about it.

Part of releasing the vulnerability information is to force the hand of the vendor to act. I agree that the vendor should be notified first. However, if nothing is done about it, then the information should be released publicly to force their action.

38 posted on 08/02/2006 9:44:17 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce
I agree that the vendor should be notified first.

Then we agree. I think 6 months is sufficient time for vendors to respond. After that only official groups such as CERT should be notified, and anything else considered criminally negligent. But keep in mind this puts you at odds with open source leaders like Linus Torvalds who believe in what they call "full disclosure", meaning let the hackers and everyone know asap.

39 posted on 08/02/2006 10:11:11 AM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
But keep in mind this puts you at odds with open source leaders like Linus Torvalds who believe in what they call "full disclosure", meaning let the hackers and everyone know asap.

I (and others here) have always claimed that we don't all follow "OSS leaders'" beliefs. Until now, you have refused to believe that.

I expect you to remember this newfound belief when you start looking for topics to smear us with.

40 posted on 08/02/2006 10:21:17 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Golden Eagle
A better solution is to annihilate the hackers

Which I am all for, if you illegally hack you should go away a long time. Someone telling me my front door is open should not be a crime...

41 posted on 08/02/2006 10:46:24 AM PDT by N3WBI3 ("I can kill you with my brain" - River Tam)
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To: ShadowAce; Golden Eagle
The problem is GE has an 'in for a penny in for a pound' mentality. I don't agree with Linus on everything and I agree with Stallmen on barely anything. Yet because I don't condemn the GPL or because I use Linux he is of the mind I must agree with both of them on everything (even though they themselves rarely see eye to eye).

I think its good form and practice to give a vendor the first crack at the problem whether that should be six months or 6 weeks depends on the severity of the problem and how hard a workaround is. All this aside I don't think that reporting the problem out loud should be illegal anymore than my neighbor telling me about my broken lock in ear shot of someone else should be illegal..

42 posted on 08/02/2006 10:51:08 AM PDT by N3WBI3 ("I can kill you with my brain" - River Tam)
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To: ShadowAce
...we don't all follow "OSS leaders'" beliefs...

Why are you so devoted then, from your tagline on down? Actions speak louder than words.

43 posted on 08/02/2006 11:25:54 AM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
Why are you so devoted then, from your tagline on down? Actions speak louder than words.

I like the OS--not the personalities behind it. I personally think it is superior to Windows. Others have differing opinions, but this one is mine.

44 posted on 08/02/2006 11:33:10 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce
I like the OS--not the personalities behind it.

Then you should have no problem with me criticizing them then.

45 posted on 08/02/2006 12:53:36 PM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
I don't believe I've ever had a problem with you criticizing them.

Go back through my history--The only issue (that I can recall) that I've disagreed with you is OSS itself, and the linking of the software to the personalities you dislike.

46 posted on 08/02/2006 1:25:14 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce

Ridiculous, you've only been doing it for years. How you can now sit there and attempt to spout such obvious mistruths is amazing. But as long as you keep ramming their philosophy down our throats, I will continue exposing them and their leftist views.


47 posted on 08/02/2006 6:05:02 PM PDT by Golden Eagle (Buy American. While you still can.)
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To: Golden Eagle
It'll turn out like everything else. Want something good, reliable, and safe? You'll have to open your wallet, or be such an expert you can build and maintain it yourself, which is getting harder and harder even with cars.

You ain't kidding. Modern cars are becoming more like black boxes than anything else. One trend I've noticed is that folks who are really into performance, are learning how to get computers to work for them. It's really neat seeing the insane amounts of information a modern automobile can output through it's computer.

Geeks and Mechanics, Unite!

48 posted on 08/02/2006 8:23:53 PM PDT by zeugma (I reject your reality and substitute my own in its place. (http://www.zprc.org/))
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