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JonBenet Ramsey Murder Suspect Karr - Case Thread 2
FRee Republic ^ | 8/28/06 | FReepers, et alii

Posted on 08/28/2006 9:01:50 AM PDT by Rte66

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To: Valpal1

There is nothing at your link, but since you titled it "Abduction Murder," I wouldn't think there would be a whole lot of parents, percentage-wise, who had to abduct their children to kill them - only the obvious non-custodial ones and that might be the whole 14% you're quoting.

As for Danielle, you were the one who was comparing apples to oranges - a primary crime scene where the victim was killed and the body was found, compared to a secondary crime scene where the victim was simply abducted. Big difference in actions involved.


351 posted on 08/29/2006 7:18:46 PM PDT by Rte66
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To: Rte66

corrected link is in post 344, I need to work on my html skills.

JonBenet and Danielle are both classified as child abductions and a home invasion abduction makes the home a primary crime scene.

As for the 14% rate, it's mostly non-custodials. You'd think a lot of parental child murderers would try to fake an abduction, but they don't, they try to claim or fake an accident or they confess.

Or they are so whacknut like the one who drowned her 5 children, they don't take any steps to cover up or deny.



352 posted on 08/29/2006 7:46:44 PM PDT by Valpal1 (Big Media is like Barney Fife with a gun.)
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To: Rte66
Thanks...

Well I am hoping that his computer HD was loaded with child porn. I find it hard to believe that is was not. The laws on child porn are laxed overseas and he may have felt comfortable having child porn on his laptop. Thai LE may have found the child porn on his laptop or let American LE look at it with Thai police while he was over there. This may part of the reason why he was not officially arrested until he was on US soil, this would put him on US soil (California soil to top it off) with a laptop computer containing prohibited child porn on a laptop in his possession.

Karr has requested that Colorado DA give him back "his" computer.

Like you said it is thorny, but I hope they are able to nail him with some additional charges. This guy does not need to be let go for quite sometime. I want to see him do some time so he has to register as a predator when he gets out.

Another thing that got my attention is that Karr may be like a ticking bomb. He had all the hair removed from his arms and part of his face, and who knows where else. The reason he was doing this could be one single reason or a multiple of reasons. Being hairless or having to worry about less body hair makes it easier to get away with a sexual crime. Men can shed body hair naturally and so easily, it also can be pulled out easily during an attack. Of course it could be that he was slowly starting the process to have a sex change operation. But the Thai doctor said Karr was way off from having that done, normally men that come to him for a sex change consultation do not walk in dressed as a man as Karr did.
353 posted on 08/29/2006 7:52:10 PM PDT by stlnative (WARNING my post is most likely full of poor spelling & bad grammar which are all free of charge!)
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To: Rte66

"As for Danielle, you were the one who was comparing apples to oranges - a primary crime scene where the victim was killed and the body was found, compared to a secondary crime scene where the victim was simply abducted. Big difference in actions involved."

Right. That's what I was hinting at in my earlier post. The Danielle case is not an example of how an intruder can enter a home and not leave evidence b/c Valpa1 didn't establish (and can't b/c we don't know where she was killed) the fact that Danielles case was comparable to that of the JBR case. Once again, you stated it more clearly. It's still apples and oranges, even if we don't know where Danielle was killed. Thanks.

As for the stats Valpa1 quoted those are national statistics that include all sorts of factors not present in the JBR case - it's a misapplication of statistics to make a point.


354 posted on 08/29/2006 7:59:42 PM PDT by ableLight
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To: stlnative

Interesting points all. I do think from reading his emails to Tracey that he DID in fact have some sexual identity issues, to put it politely. He made numerous references to the presence of a myserious female wherever he went. It's him.


355 posted on 08/29/2006 8:04:36 PM PDT by ableLight
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To: Valpal1

I think you meant to make that a link (Abduction Murder Study) to a website but got the forum in it instead.

I'd like to see it if you can put it up. Thanks.


356 posted on 08/29/2006 8:09:05 PM PDT by ableLight
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To: Valpal1

BTW, an interesting exercise would be to see if we can get stats on how many children were murdered in their home by a stranger who broke and entered the home w/o the parents knowledge (since all the Ramseys and their acquaintances were ruled out). That would be truly apples to apples and I'm curious what it would show.


357 posted on 08/29/2006 8:17:21 PM PDT by ableLight
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To: ableLight

The converse would also be interesting. How many children have been murdered in the home by their immediate family residing in the same home.

Comparing the stranger/intruder stats against the murder by family stats would be VERY interesting.


358 posted on 08/29/2006 8:19:11 PM PDT by ableLight
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To: Rte66
In case you are interested...

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2003/April/03_ag_266.htm

http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2005/46618.htm

The PROTECT Act

An important aspect of the U.S. effort is to strengthen law enforcement’s ability to investigate, prosecute, and punish violent crimes committed against children, including child sex tourism and the commercial sexual exploitation of children. The PROTECT Act (Prosecutorial Remedies and Other Tools to End the Exploitation of Children Today Act of 2003) was passed by the Congress in April 2003 and signed into law by President Bush. The act serves as a historic milestone for protecting children while severely punishing those who victimize young people. Of particular note, the PROTECT Act allows law enforcement officers to prosecute American citizens and legal permanent residents who travel abroad and commercially sexually abuse minors without having to prove prior intent to commit this crime. The law also strengthens the punishment of these child sex tourists. If convicted, child sex tourists now face up to 30 years’ imprisonment, an increase from the previous maximum of 15 years.

The PROTECT Act made several other changes to the law with a focus on protecting children from sexual predators, including: extending the statute of limitations for federal crimes involving the abduction or physical or sexual abuse of a child for the lifetime of the child; expanding the potential reach of federal sex trafficking prosecutions by extending federal jurisdiction to crimes committed in foreign commerce; establishing parallel penalty enhancements for the production of child pornography overseas; and, criminalizing actions to arrange or facilitate the travel of child sex tourists.
359 posted on 08/29/2006 8:23:18 PM PDT by stlnative (WARNING my post is most likely full of poor spelling & bad grammar which are all free of charge!)
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To: Rte66

I am praying that they had the classroom bugged when they were watching (and hopefully they video taped it also) Karr through the school window interacting with the 5 year old. - I believe what he said to the child is in the Arrest Warrant or in Tracey's Email File. (it was near the end pages of one of these files)

I would love to see the FBI go after this creep under The PROTECT Act, but I will not hold my breath. I guess if the FBI was going to get involved we most likely would have heard something by now.


360 posted on 08/29/2006 8:37:22 PM PDT by stlnative (WARNING my post is most likely full of poor spelling & bad grammar which are all free of charge!)
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To: stlnative

I haven't finished reading the arrest warrant - I'm still where I stopped last night and I'm not going to download the emails file or phone calls file. Some of it has been on TV (those parts that can be) and some is posted by others on forums - I'll eventually piece it together.

"And hence," I'm not sure what all is in them. I won't hold my breath on the FBI on this one, either. I feel they would be more interested in whether he was part of a network of predators - which, of course, he may be - though I sort of doubt it.

The way he kept looking over his should at the Internet cafe, not wanting anyone to see what was on his monitor screen, tells me that he is still ashamed of these things that he brags about so openly in private in the few emails I've read from the warrant.

He complains about "everyone else" not understanding him and then tries to make arguments for the NA ... well, I don't want to write that word on here - you know the organization I mean. It also has an m and a b and an l and an a after that. Weirdos would get that keyword on google hits and we'd be inundated with JMK's if I wrote it out.

So, I think it would take something like the other rings that the FBI has broken up to get their attention. If we're lucky, maybe he has associated with some of them online, like that one who used to post on another JBR forum from SAmer.

And we won't hear about any of that until it's all over and there are arrests.

I'd really like to know if those people in Europe that he nannied for (if they really exist) have been located and interviewed by LE. That's imperative. If not by Boulder, perhaps by Sonoma. I'd also like to know about 2004 and why he didn't email that whole year. Doing instead of fantasizing?

Truthfully, I really don't care about anything JMK-related at present.



361 posted on 08/29/2006 9:04:35 PM PDT by Rte66
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To: ableLight

Well, not knowing where she actually died is just a matter of a few yards difference - whether in his bedroom or in his motor home, parked outside.

I can deduce that her live handprint on the headboard of the motorhome bed means she was alive in there, but I've always felt that's where she died because of the blood stains.


362 posted on 08/29/2006 9:07:27 PM PDT by Rte66
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SONOMA JUDGE WON'T UNSEAL KARR ARREST DOCUMENTS
08/29/06 5:15 PDT

~SNIP~

It was disclosed during the court hearing that the Sheriff's Department has re-opened its investigation of Karr on the pornography charges. Giordano would not comment on the scope of the re-opened investigation.

Chief Deputy District Attorney Joan Risse said new technology has allowed a more thorough examination of Karr's computer on which the pornography was allegedly found five years ago.

~SNIP~ (more at link)
363 posted on 08/29/2006 9:36:36 PM PDT by stlnative (WARNING my post is most likely full of poor spelling & bad grammar which are all free of charge!)
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Karr headed to California
August 29, 2006

~SNIP~

Temin also sought a court order to return property taken from Karr following his arrest in Thailand.

Assistant district attorney Pete McGuire told Bailin that his office does not want to return a computer seized from Karr. McGuire noted that one of the conditions a California judge imposed on Karr was that he have no access to the Internet.

Bailin ordered that everything except the computer be returned to Karr through his attorney. She also instructed prosecutors (the computer) could not be examined unless they obtained a warrant to do so.

~SNIP~ (more at link)
364 posted on 08/29/2006 9:59:56 PM PDT by stlnative (WARNING my post is most likely full of poor spelling & bad grammar which are all free of charge!)
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To: Valpal1

>>>Danielle Van Damm, another child abduction murder victim taken from her bed where no evidence of an intruder was found in the home. Neighbor David Westerfield was convicted of the crime.>>>

This scares the crap out of me. I have a baby monitor in my daughter's room (they share a bedroom) with those little alarm things on all the windows. There are freaks everywhere. Just this morning, my (I was very proud) observant daughter noticed a man parked in a truck up the street from the bus stop. After quizzing him, he was waiting on friend to come. I plan on calling the police if he waits for a 'friend' again (I have never seen this person on my street before).

So am I paranoid? Maybe. But it pays to be sometimes.


365 posted on 08/30/2006 5:35:57 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: sandbar

But that's not paranoid, that is being alert to your environment and taking responsibility for your turf.

When everyone keeps their head down and minds their own business, that's when criminals run amok, not just the molesters either.

Abduction murder is truly a very, very rare event that is just publicized more due to electronic media.


366 posted on 08/30/2006 7:47:02 AM PDT by Valpal1 (Big Media is like Barney Fife with a gun.)
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To: Rte66; ableLight
Corrected Link: http://www.atg.wa.gov/hits/childmur.shtml

2006 Child Abduction Murder Study

In late 1993, the Criminal Division of the Washington State Attorney General's Office undertook a 3-1/2 year research project, partially funded by the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, to study the investigation of child abduction murder cases.

In this first research project, published in 1997, researchers reviewed more than 600 child abduction murder cases across the United States, then interviewed the investigating detectives. This data provided law enforcement valuable insight into what investigative techniques tend to be most productive.

Now the Attorney General’s Office has released a follow-up study, including 175 additional solved cases. The additional cases generally reflect and support the findings in the original report with several significant and definite differences:

367 posted on 08/30/2006 7:55:48 AM PDT by Valpal1 (Big Media is like Barney Fife with a gun.)
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Karr Seemed 'Just Like the Old John' During Jail Visit
August 30

excerpt...

Aug. 30 - The father and half brother of John Mark Karr, the man who confessed to the murder of JonBenet Ramsey and was then cleared by DNA evidence, says he appeared "stable" when they visited him in a Colorado jail Tuesday.

"He was just like the old John," said half brother Nate Karr in an exclusive interview with "Good Morning America." "We had some touching moments, some laughs," he said.

-------------



Author of book on JonBenet doubts case will be solved
August 30

excerpt...

ST. LOUIS - The author of a book on JonBenet Ramsey's murder says that absent a bona fide confession, he doubts the case will ever be solved.

"The evidence is 10 years old now. If it was going to lead them to a suspect, it would have already," said Charles Bosworth Jr., a St. Louis-area man who co-wrote a book published in 1998 called "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?"

Bosworth is a former longtime crime reporter at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch who lives in Glen Carbon, Ill. He and co-author, Dr. Cyril Wecht, a pathologist and former county coroner in Pittsburgh, had concluded that family or someone close to it killed the 6-year-old beauty queen.
368 posted on 08/30/2006 10:31:42 AM PDT by stlnative (WARNING my post is most likely full of poor spelling & bad grammar which are all free of charge!)
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To: All

After reading (I could only stomach a handful of pages) of the emails to Michael Tracey I have to say:

First, how could he (Michael Tracey) continue and even have conversations like this with this demented twisted sick man. Even for 'investigative' purposes. Four YEARS of this garbage??? You can't convince me he isn't a sicko himself.

Second, relative or not, John Karr needs to be locked away FOREVER. Why do they not have nuthouses anymore??? We have to give up our civil rights to fight 'terrorism', but yet we have to honor civil rights of demented pyscho's at the expense of our children. We must pay for Katrina "victims" to buy drugs, strippers and video game systems, but we can't pay to house people that would harm our children???

I am sickened and as another relative has said (not the looney tunes two that have been in the news spotlight from day one) he is dead to me. Might as well have stayed in Thailand.


369 posted on 08/30/2006 11:08:58 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: Valpal1

Thanks! Very interesting. You do realize, of course, that that was only in the state of Washington?


370 posted on 08/30/2006 12:13:23 PM PDT by ableLight
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To: ableLight

Um, no it wasn't. That study happens to be the difinitive study to date on the subject. It was done by the Washingtion AG's office, partly funded by the U.S. Department of Justice and is national in scope.

If you read the intro, you'd know that.


371 posted on 08/30/2006 2:35:05 PM PDT by Valpal1 (Big Media is like Barney Fife with a gun.)
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To: sandbar; All
I have skimmed through most of the 420 pages from Karr/Tracey email. The FBI is all over this in my opinion - Tracey was communicating with the FBI and the FBI was definitely involved during the last 2 months and most likely earlier than that. Karr's computer has not been searched yet and CO is holding on to it. They have to seek a warrant to access the files on his computer. Karr is in deep doo doo if they find any thing on the computer or if someone from overseas steps forward with information that a child was molested by him in the last 2 or 3 years. It is a federal offense in US now for anyone to travel to another country and molest a child - The federal prison sentence for this 15 years to 30 years for each count. All this follows under the 2003 PROTECT Act.

Tracey had a hard time stomaching all of this, you have to read the 420 page file to catch on to this. Karr would get extremely angry at Tracey many many times for Tracey not responding to his emails that way he expected Tracey should respond.

If no one has got into the 420 page file, I strongly recommend that you look at least at the pages around June 24th and to the day he was picked up in Thailand.

Some people may say well he made up the JonBenet stuff how do we know he was telling the truth about the others girls? Well I'd say Karr was very honest about a lot things he was telling Tracey. If you read from June 24th 06 and on Karr talks in great detail about how he decorated his classroom, he even sent Tracey photos by email. Once US LE got there they saw that Karr was not lying about it and he was not lying about the little 5 year old that Karr was after right before Thai police picked him up. Again you have to read the emails to understand what went down.

Again do not think that Tracey is a sicko until you have went through the emails, you will see clearly that Tracey was having a hard time dealing with all of it, but he kept going because he wanted to get Karr off the streets.

Another thing Karr is not insane, he is flat out a pedophile! He should never see the outside world again.
372 posted on 08/30/2006 5:30:29 PM PDT by stlnative (WARNING my post is most likely full of poor spelling & bad grammar which are all free of charge!)
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To: Valpal1
On page 26 of the full report (PDF format) it states:

According to Hanfland et al (1997), the rarity of these types of cases has allowed a body of "commonly held beliefs" to develop that has little to no basis in fact. Hence detectives, case managers, police executives and the media sometimes operate with false assumptions and misperceptions. Homicide investigators, through no fault of their own, sometimes fail to realize that the investigations of the murders of abducted children are very different the other murders they investigate. Consequently, they sometimes make decisions about the direction of the investigation that are not "high percentage" choices. For example, some detectives believe that in any murder of a child the logical suspect is a parent and, therefore, they devote a considerable amount of resources to prove that belief. But this research shows that the parents are the least likely suspects in an abduction murder of a child. This kind of false assumption is made, in part, from lack of experience with these types of cases and because there is very little empirical research on these types of child murders and their investigations from which detectives can draw guidance. This research will help investigators make those decisions identify the strategies, and implement the tactics that will lead to the more certain and timely capture of the killers of abducted children.
373 posted on 08/30/2006 6:19:21 PM PDT by Valpal1 (Big Media is like Barney Fife with a gun.)
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To: onyx; MizSterious; null and void; gridlock; hershey; hoosiermama; PilloryHillary; KylaStarr; ...

This will probably be the last FR thread roundup on the topic of John Mark Karr, but if more Ramsey murder case info comes up, I'll save the list. Been nice chattin' with y'all!




ADDENDUM #9
Tue., 8/29/06 thru Wed, 8/30/06





http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1692455/posts
Grotesque Ignorance Exposed (The Media & John Mark Karr)
American Spectator ^ | 8/30/2006 | William Tucker

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1692442/posts
JonBenet
Wall Street Journal Opinion Journal ^ | August 30, 2006 | DOROTHY RABINOWITZ

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1692052/posts
Sonoma County D.A. wants Karr to face child porn charges from '01
The Press Democrat ^ | 8-29-06

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1692000/posts
Prosecutor Defends Karr Arrest
The Washington Times ^ | August 29, 2006 | unk


374 posted on 08/30/2006 7:32:18 PM PDT by Rte66
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To: Rte66
Source

"Neighbors said the Ramseys entertained often - they had three separate Christmas parties in December. People were often seen coming and going from their house.

"Many people may have had keys to the house, including caterers, a house cleaner, gardeners and landscapers, said Joe Barnhill, who lives across the street and takes care of JonBenet's dog, Jacque.

If others had keys to the house, it is possible that someone may have stolen the keys from one of these people or keys may have been given to a stranger.

It remind me of the Elizabeth Smart case. The perp who kidnapped ES had been inside the Smarts' residence, but was the only one -- among those who had done work at the Smarts'-- who had not been questioned by LE.

A big thank you for the pings.

375 posted on 08/30/2006 9:48:44 PM PDT by stultorum
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To: stultorum

That was at the very start of the case. There were either 6 or 8 keys out and Patsy knew who they all were. I don't know when the cops got that info out of her, but all were checked out, intensely - for years!

One of those "3" parties was not theirs and they were out of town. I have no idea what the 3rd one might have been. They said they didn't have any that year - but the gingerbread party did count. It just wasn't a big production like the R's normally liked to do.

A great deal of the info that came out at first was later found to be wrong - you kind of have to follow along after that to see what the cops found and what others said in either media interviews or LE questionings (some has been released, not all) or the many books that have been written with more info gleaned by the authors.

You're welcome - y'all can keep posting about the case here, I'm just sick to death of the Karr stuff. Happy sleuthing.

Oh, PS - do you want to go back and hit the "abuse" button on your potato pix post #96, so the mod can delete it? The "no picture" notices are huge and look kind of raggedy there. No problem if you don't want to. See ya!


376 posted on 08/30/2006 10:14:22 PM PDT by Rte66
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To: stultorum

I'm sorry! I was thinking I was writing to stlnative! My huge apologies. Please disregard, lol!


377 posted on 08/30/2006 10:16:04 PM PDT by Rte66
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To: stlnative

Hi - I just screwed up - thought I was writing a post to you, but it was stultorum - I was just seeing "stl" in my peripheral vision.

Here is what was supposed to be to you:

"... Oh, PS - do you want to go back and hit the "abuse" button on your potato pix post #96, so the mod can delete it? The "no picture" notices are huge and look kind of raggedy there. No problem if you don't want to. See ya! ..."

There! I need some ice cream, I think!


378 posted on 08/30/2006 10:18:28 PM PDT by Rte66
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To: Rte66

Thanks for all your hard work tracking down the news items on this story. Whether Karr killed JB or not, I hope he's locked up for a long while--he's a danger to children.


379 posted on 08/31/2006 5:37:00 AM PDT by MizSterious (Anonymous sources often means "the voices in my head told me.")
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To: stlnative

>>>Another thing Karr is not insane, he is flat out a pedophile! He should never see the outside world again.>>>

*sigh* I must agree.


380 posted on 08/31/2006 6:00:13 AM PDT by sandbar
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To: MizSterious
I agree. Karr needs to be locked up. I am grateful that the DA tried to indict him so now we know what he looks like and know to avoid him.
381 posted on 08/31/2006 10:42:33 AM PDT by Dante3
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To: All

John Mark Karr - Ping List

Please FReep Mail me if you want on or off the
John Mark Karr - Ping List

I plan to follow the John Mark Karr story as I desire to see justice served on the 5 counts of child pornography Karr faces in Sonoma County California. Sonoma County California LE is seeking a new warrant to re-search Karr's 2001 computer with latest technology to see if they can find more child pornography on it and to possibly find a trail on his 2001 computer to see if he was soliciting the child pornography to others back in 2001.

The DA in Boulder County Colorado still has Karr's current laptop computer that he willing brought back with him from Thailand. The Boulder DA has refused to return it to Karr and Boulder LE will be required to seek a warrant to access this laptop computer. I would assume that this warrant will be sought out and will be granted to Boulder LE so that they can find what is on Karr's current laptop computer. Federal charges under the 2003 PROTECT Act could be brought against Karr depending what is found on his current computer since he was not under arrest when he willing grabbed his laptop to bring it back with him to the states after Thailand tossed him out of their country. There could be more child porn on it or information that would lead LE (or the FBI) to possible child victims that Karr may have molested overseas. 

More charges may be brought against Karr depending what is found on his past and present computers and I will searching the wires daily to see if anymore charges will be brought against Karr. If you want to be "pinged" when more information is released by the media, please FReep Mail me privately to be put on the John Mark Ping list.

This is not a Ramsey/Karr ping list - you will not be pinged to media articles that only relate to or rehash Karr's false confession to the JonBenet case, unless Boulder's LE has found something to connect Karr to the JonBenet case (like if they finally learn of Karr's whereabouts for December 25th and 26th of 1996)

382 posted on 08/31/2006 12:01:24 PM PDT by stlnative (WARNING my post is most likely full of poor spelling & bad grammar which are all free of charge!)
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To: Rte66


Thanks for all of your work. You're awesome.


383 posted on 08/31/2006 12:51:32 PM PDT by onyx (1 Billion Muslims -- "if" 10% are fundamentalists, that's still 100 Million who want to kill us.)
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To: Rte66

Thanks for all you've done. Appreciate your organizational skills.


384 posted on 08/31/2006 2:06:04 PM PDT by hoosiermama
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To: MizSterious; onyx; hoosiermama

You're all welcome. I was glad that all that time spent on this case was finally useful to others. Wish it could be useful to JonBenet!


385 posted on 08/31/2006 3:16:39 PM PDT by Rte66
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To: onyx
Give polygraphs to both the profssor and to Karr. See who's the bigger liar, just for the hell of it.

Touche...and hello to several familiar "faces" from a while back, this is Rusty... had to reregister.

I would dearly love to know what took 4 years and one documentary for Tracy to decide to present Karr to the DA. Plus, as sick as Karr is, I rather he be the Thai's problem.

As it is, his dream came true and he got his "moment" in Boulder and will now forever be tied to JonBenet(even as foolish footnote).

386 posted on 09/01/2006 5:49:48 PM PDT by Andrew Roberts (Some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug....)
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