Posted on 12/08/2006 10:25:19 AM PST by LibWhacker
Questionable directions given by online mapping services could have contributed to the death of James Kim, who perished while trying to save his stranded family.
Kim, 35, was driving home from a vacation with his wife, Kati, and daughters, four-year-old Penelope and seven-month-old Sabine, on November 25 when he took a wrong turn and they became lost in the wilderness in Oregon, in north-west US.
Kim left his family on Saturday to find help, but never returned. When searchers found his lifeless body yesterday, he had already walked 13 kilometres through rugged terrain, wearing only light clothing.
But Kim - undoubtedly tech-savvy given that he worked as a technology reporter for the online publisher CNET - may never have made that fateful wrong turn if he hadn't used the internet to look up directions for his journey, US media reports suggest.
According to Associated Press, drivers are advised not to take Bear Camp Road to Gold Beach in winter, the route taken by the Kims.
"Authorities say the cyber-savvy family may have plucked the route from Grants Pass to Gold Beach from an online mapping service, unaware of the elements," AP reported.
"Despite its impassable snowdrifts and single lane, Bear Camp Road is offered as the preferred route on some websites and on-board-directions software available on some new cars. And most of those have no business in those mountains in the winter."
When using the Yahoo Maps, MapQuest and Google Maps online services to plot directions from Grants Pass to Gold Beach, Yahoo and MapQuest both recommend taking the same, safer highway route, while Google suggests a shortcut through roads that become dangerous in winter.
"It's [the route used by the Kim family] not a good way to go in winter conditions," Josephine County Undersheriff Brian Anderson told journalists. "You're not going to make it."
It hasn't been definitively confirmed which online mapping service, if any, the Kim family used for directions.
Autopsy results are due today, and it is expected that they will show that Kim, weakened by a lack of food, eventually succumbed to hypothermia.
Kim's wife and daughters were rescued earlier this week, sustaining only minor injuries.
Since his body was recovered yesterday, video, audio and text tributes to Kim have flooded the web.
Yesterday, smh.com.au's story that reported on the finding of Kim's body was the website's most-read article, attracting over 100,000 page views.
Similarly, on MSNBC.com, the story received over 1 million page views by lunch time, and was also its top-rated story. On CNN.com, the story had received 755,000 page views by mid-afternoon, SFGate.com reports.
The website created to track the search effort, www.jamesandkati.com, is currently collecting donations for the Kim family.
Tech savviness does not necessarily equal common sense. It sucks that this family died, but to not have any awareness of the conditions is just plain stupid.
If this turns out to be true, there would be a whopper of a lawsuit forthcoming...........
I smell a lawsuit.
Delorme products also seem to love dirt roads on the default settings.
Yep, rub some green on it and it feels all better.
The name "Bear Camp Road" should have given Kim pause. He paid for his mistake with his life. Very sad, indeed.
Agreed. This isn't a news story, it's just BS speculation. Did the author get lost using YahooMaps one time?
Yeah, and the online maping service may have told them to ignore snow warning signs and to leave common sense at home.
Leave it to yahaw or gurgle to turn a 10 mile trip into 50.
Wife and kids were rescued form the car, dad went looking for help and died.
.... how far down in the article?
Google's stock price hasn't been hit yet GOOG is up 1%
Much too much is expected from maps.
"Kate, Kate, should I turn left or right up ahead?"
However, it wasn't clear whose map the couple used. The 2005-2007 state highway map distributed by the Oregon Department of Transportation has a warning in red print, inside a red box: "This route closed in winter." A Rand-McNally map did not have a similar warning.I'm no lawyer but I've never heard of anyone successfully suing Rand-McNally for an omission like that. I don't know where you draw the line, but at some point a person has to bear responsibility for his own actions and/or poor judgement (not that I don't have any sympathy for poor guy and his wife and kids).
Absolutely correct!
This makes his death kind of ironic, unfortunately.
No offense to the family, but Mr. Kim's reliance on technology would seem to have supplanted his common sense and good judgment.
From the turn off on the Merlin-Galice Rd (just south of Galice) the sign says about 65 miles to Gold Beach. It took me over 3 hours to get there but that was driving a P/U with a large cabover camper on the bed. My wife and stepdaughter went that way and about 8 years ago and it took over 2 1/2 hours. They took the back roads because stepdaugter was just starting to drive and wanted to go where not many cars would be. The longer route via 199 would have taken about 2 hours.
Trying to map the trip on Google but the system just hangs???
Not a chance. From mapquest.com: This map is informational only. No representation is made or warranty given as to its content. User assumes all risk of use. MapQuest and its suppliers assume no responsibility for any loss or delay resulting from such use.
All online map sites have similar, if not the exact same disclaimer.
Just got through to Google (Google Earth) and it does send you through the route that the Kims took. It may be the shortest but not the way to go in the winter. Passable in summer but takes a very long time.
You know, it's crazy... I've been given many bad/incorrect routes by online mapping services (I just haven't been sent on a death ride yet). It's hard to believe tech-savvy James Kim wouldn't know that you have to take those maps with a grain of salt, especially in the backcountry.
Mapquest did have a disclaimer, MSN gave a link for a disclaimer, and Google Earth had no disclaimer or link for one
I did this search on MapQuest and posted about it on 12/4 at 6:47 PM. Contrary to this article it does you on either this road or another forest service road just like it, not a "safer highway route." My post and a few others along this line generated a couple replies because I asked the question as to whether or not MapQuest might have any liability if, in fact, the family had gotten these instructions from them. Do you suppose MapQuest got word of this and changed their recommendation for this route to cover this up?
Not accurate for the searches I just did. Yahoo was the only map service that had the correct route to take, Grants Pass to Gold Beach via 199. All others including Google Earth, MSN Maps, and MapQuest sent you on the fatal trip that the Kims took. Mapquest did have a disclaimer, MSN provided a link to a disclaimer, and Google Earth had no disclaimer.
I just did a search, Grants Pass (Zip 97526) to Gold Beach, and it still sent you the wrong way or the way the Kims attempted. Mapquest did have a disclaimer at the bottom of the directions.
Terms of use for Google maps It's not on the first map that's displayed after an address is entered. It's a link on the printable version, at the lower right hand corner. Their relevant disclaimer for this case:
You agree that you are responsible for your own conduct and content while using Google Maps and for any consequences thereof.
MapQuest cannot be faulted for fixing their recommendation in light of what happened. Moreover, "subsequent remedial measures" are inadmissible as evidence of liability. That's just the way it is in court.
I'm sorry, actually the "Terms of Use" link is on the first map generated too, not just the printable version.
This is a search I just did, still wrong....
Are you certain that's the case? I believe that there is a legal standard of "evidence of guilty knowledge" allowing this type of material.
It's a matter of public policy: one cannot expect property-owners (in this case) to be afraid to fill gopher-holes after an accident until the statute of limitations has expired, or the court case is concluded.
Love how these people attach a bunch of speculation to a big story so that their name will come up on searches about the story and heighten their profile and maybe their paycheck. it's so sleazy.
All that aside these mapping services just use a simple maze pathing algorythm to find the most direct route from the entered point A to the entered point B. There's simply no way they could program in various seasonal travel adviseries and such, at least not and keep the services free. If you really want good directions for a cross country trip in teritory unfamiliar to you there's still only one good source, AAA, they work in the seasonal stuff and get the road construction schedules. AAA can do this because they charge.
They're good as tools but NOT 100% accurate. Sometimes the directions don't always get you to the correct street. That happened to me when I was looking for the DHL address in Long Beach, California.
It's a matter of public policy: one cannot expect property-owners (in this case) to be afraid to fill gopher-holes after an accident until the statute of limitations has expired, or the court case is concluded.
But it must be admissible as evidence if, under the circumstances you describe, I was defending the action by claiming that there was no gopher hole, therefore no possibility of the accident having occurred as alleged. If they say "Oh yes, we changed the routing out of an abundance of caution, once we learned about it," then your principle of law would apply. But if they altered it in an attempt to deny that they directed them to use that route then that is "guilty knowledge."
In this case it really wouldn't be the offense, but the cover up, that controls admissibility.
my mom used to ask ,"If Mapquest told you to drive off a bridge, would you? "
Especially since Bear Camp Road doesn't go to Gold Beach, but rather dead ends. The first of many mistakes in this typical AP article.
"Authorities say the cyber-savvy family may have plucked the route from Grants Pass to Gold Beach from an online mapping service, unaware of the elements," AP reported. "Despite its impassable snowdrifts and single lane, Bear Camp Road is offered as the preferred route on some websites and on-board-directions software available on some new cars.
No it is not. What is offered is to go west 11 miles from Merlin on Galice road, then left onto the BLM 34-8-36 road for 12 miles, where that road ends and splits into the NF-23 road (on the left) and Bear Camp Road (on the right.) Remember this intersection. The Google directions say to "Continue on NF-23) for 24 miles, then turn left at the NF-33 road for 19 miles to another intersection. That intersection is 10 miles from Gold Beach along the south bank of the Rogue River, and where they likely would have been told to cross the river to get onto the road on the north bank, where their lodge is.
Note that nowhere does the route suggest taking "Bear Camp Road," because Bear Camp Road isn't the through route. Just Google Earth it, or Google Maps, or Mapquest, or MSN maps. None of them show Bear Camp Road as a main road.
The problem is that Bear Camp Road is actually wider than the main road where it splits off from the main road (BLM34-8-36/NF-23.) Perhaps that fork in the road had poor signage, but that isn't the mapmakers' fault. The family got into trouble because they took a wrong turn at Bear Camp road and then continued 15 more miles down various zigzaggy roads and through multiple splitoffs until they ended up completely lost in the maze. Unfortunately easy to do, but if they had stayed on the main road and carefully followed the directions they would have made it safely to their destination. Perhaps such a poorly-marked route that isn't maintained in winter shouldn't be used as an option, but it doesn't excuse questionable judgements. The mapmakers didn't choose to go into the mountains without much gas, didn't choose to go up a road marked "closed in winter" on the Oregon highway map the family had with them, didn't choose to head across the mountains on a very cold and stormy night, didn't choose to continue going despite snow, slickness, and the general poor conditions of all the road past Galice.
My point is not to blame them, it is easy to understand how a series of events and seemingly minor decisions could end up putting this family in harm's way before they knew it. I can't say for sure that it couldn't happen to me. But there were a lot of factors involved in this incident, and just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean that it should be sued. The talk about the mapmakers being financially liable is ludicrous and a good example of what is screwing up this country.
According to Associated Press, drivers are advised not to take Bear Camp Road to Gold Beach in winter, the route taken by the Kims.
Especially since Bear Camp Road doesn't go to Gold Beach, but rather splits off from the main road. The first of many mistakes in this typical AP article.
"Authorities say the cyber-savvy family may have plucked the route from Grants Pass to Gold Beach from an online mapping service, unaware of the elements," AP reported. "Despite its impassable snowdrifts and single lane, Bear Camp Road is offered as the preferred route on some websites and on-board-directions software available on some new cars.
No it is not. What is offered is to go west 11 miles from Merlin on Galice road, then left onto the BLM 34-8-36 road for 12 miles, where that road ends and splits into the NF-23 road (on the left) and Bear Camp Road (on the right.) Remember this intersection. The Google directions say to "Continue on NF-23) for 24 miles, then turn left at the NF-33 road for 19 miles to another intersection. That intersection is 10 miles from Gold Beach along the south bank of the Rogue River, and where they likely would have been told to cross the river to get onto the road on the north bank, where their lodge is.
Note that nowhere does the route suggest taking "Bear Camp Road," because Bear Camp Road isn't the through route. Just Google Earth it, or Google Maps, or Mapquest, or MSN maps. None of them show Bear Camp Road as a main road.
The problem is that Bear Camp Road is actually wider than the main road where it splits off from the main road (BLM34-8-36/NF-23.) Perhaps that fork in the road had poor signage, but that isn't the mapmakers' fault. The family got into trouble because they took a wrong turn at Bear Camp road and then continued 15 more miles down various zigzaggy roads and through multiple splitoffs until they ended up completely lost in the maze. Unfortunately easy to do, but if they had stayed on the main road and carefully followed the directions they would have made it safely to their destination. Perhaps such a poorly-marked route that isn't maintained in winter shouldn't be used as an option, but it doesn't excuse questionable judgements. The mapmakers didn't choose to go into the mountains without much gas, didn't choose to go up a road marked "closed in winter" on the Oregon highway map the family had with them, didn't choose to head across the mountains on a very cold and stormy night, didn't choose to continue going despite snow, slickness, and the general poor conditions of all the road past Galice.
My point is not to blame them, it is easy to understand how a series of events and seemingly minor decisions could end up putting this family in harm's way before they knew it. I can't say for sure that it couldn't happen to me. But there were a lot of factors involved in this incident, and just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean that it should be sued. The talk about the mapmakers being financially liable is ludicrous and a good example of what is screwing up this country.
Driving through snowy mountain passes means taking the right gear: snow chains, blankets, power bars, water, extra clothes if the starting and stopping destinations really aren't that cold.
Even in the Northeast when you really arent that far from civ. (ever) if you're in a car in the winter it makes sense to throw a sleeping bag and some extra warm clothing in the car. If you break down on the side of the highway and have to hoof it somewhere I would rather do it in some warm hiking boots, etc. then in a business suit.
But I feel bad for the family. It's a sad story.
Also good for any vehicle is first aid kit, flashlight, knife, road flares, some extra vehicle fluids, and length of line (rope).
Which would be fine in and of itself (though a tad lazy), except that the accusation he makes is out of date. Newer press briefings have told us that the Kims were told about this road in person from an attendant inside a one of those state-run rest stop/chamber of commerce things, and that said attendant specifically warned them that said road may be dangerous at this time of year.
That is not so IMO and I've lived in that area and have taken that route to the coast (summertime) before. They got into trouble the minute they decided to take the mountain route to Gold Beach via Galice. The fact that they strayed from the route the mapping tried to steer them is probably not relavant. The minute they turned off the Merlin-Galice road they were on a road that was not normally drivable in the winter. Probably did not make any difference they made a wrong turn, they still would have not made the coast making all the right turns.
Having lived in S Oregon for 15 years until 2004 you would know not to go that way in the winter. Even in the summmer although shorter it is not a quicker or even easier way to go.
From the Grants Pass area you have two choices to get to Gold Beach, 199 south then north on hwy 1 or I-5 north to 42 then south on hwy 1.
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