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Retread ZOT! Who is the moderator in this thread?
Posted on 02/27/2007 4:07:28 PM PST by PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
I would like to get permission to post a question to other Freepers. TY.
TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Free Republic Policy/Q&A
KEYWORDS: aaaaaaaaazotzzzzzzzz; aaaaaaaazzzaaaaaaaaa; allurzotarbelong2us; areyoueponymous; dntfearbutembracezot; donotadjustvertical; dontadjusthorizontal; fan; ibtz; idesofmarchareuponus; iluvcatapungeeweeeee; lifestooshorttofight; middlefingerdiscount; molassesmiasma; monkeyfacerules; monkeyfacewhatrules; patrickhenryzot; penguinhumor; pleasedontzottheut; remainclamplease; remnantcuriosbite; sionnsar; thisisnotanotzot; thompsonforpresident; troll; trollpavedover; trolltimer; u4goturkeywurdz; vikingkitties; vk; weareincontrol; wehavearrived; wherewegoingbob; youneedbifocals; zombiethread; zot; zotisyourbuddy; zotisyourchum; zotisyourfriend; zotisyourpal; zotuntilwedrop; zotzapalooza
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Responsibility2nd
It's a good thing I wasn't drinking anything, or you'd owe me a new keyboard. I laughed so hard I got tears in my eyes.
151
posted on
02/27/2007 5:53:20 PM PST
by
DaveLoneRanger
(As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
To: PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
152
posted on
02/27/2007 5:56:17 PM PST
by
azhenfud
(The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
To: JRios1968
To: SandyInSeattle
"Looter guy! Where's he been hiding?"
I found him!
154
posted on
02/27/2007 6:02:55 PM PST
by
dynachrome
("Where am I? Where am I going? Why am I in a handbasket?")
To: dynachrome
That house is going to flood when global warming melts the snow.
155
posted on
02/27/2007 6:04:36 PM PST
by
MaxMax
(God Bless America)
To: Huntress; PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
To: PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
To: SandyInSeattle
Found him over here too :)
To: Thunder90
159
posted on
02/27/2007 6:06:50 PM PST
by
Huntress
(I believe in government by grumpy old guys.)
To: Monkey Face
Hiya!
Wonder if this thread will go undead...
To: PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC

Doncha' know the Moderator knows all?
161
posted on
02/27/2007 6:08:39 PM PST
by
Salem
(FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
To: K4Harty; andyandval
Has Looter Guy ever been positively identified?
He could make millions if he would come forward for the recognition due him as the face of Katrina.
162
posted on
02/27/2007 6:11:27 PM PST
by
SandyInSeattle
(I made it home! Hello, Seattle! It's Raining! Woo Hoo!)
To: BJClinton
LOL!!
163
posted on
02/27/2007 6:14:48 PM PST
by
Salem
(FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
To: PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
Who is this Zot you speak of? He will bow before the great Zod!
164
posted on
02/27/2007 6:14:50 PM PST
by
Spruce
To: PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
165
posted on
02/27/2007 6:26:22 PM PST
by
SlowBoat407
(A living insult to islam since 1959)
To: darkwing104; SJackson; yonif; Simcha7; American in Israel; Slings and Arrows; judicial meanz; ...
Off topic, but you guys really have to get on
darkwing104's Viking Kitty/ZOT ping list. With all that is going on, a good ZOT thread and the laughs helps maintain some perspective.
166
posted on
02/27/2007 6:41:49 PM PST
by
Salem
(FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
To: JRios1968; monkapotamus; All
MONK get your Star Wars photoshop in gear
167
posted on
02/27/2007 6:43:44 PM PST
by
SevenofNine
("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
To: JRios1968; monkapotamus; All
MONK get your Star Wars photoshop in gear
168
posted on
02/27/2007 6:43:51 PM PST
by
SevenofNine
("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
To: Salem
I'm not going to read the thread.
Did he ask his question?
169
posted on
02/27/2007 6:48:39 PM PST
by
SJackson
(No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms, Thomas Jefferson)
To: Jet Jaguar
Dang, that hurts my eyes!
170
posted on
02/27/2007 6:49:10 PM PST
by
OSHA
(Sarcasm detector overload!)
To: Salem
So how do I get added?
Is there an initiation?
What are the dues?
Where can I get a map?
171
posted on
02/27/2007 6:51:31 PM PST
by
pax_et_bonum
(I will always love you, Flyer.)
To: PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
Honestly? Yes, they make your butt look big.
To: Salem
I love that. It's hilarious.
173
posted on
02/27/2007 6:56:46 PM PST
by
processing please hold
(Duncan Hunter '08) (ROP and Open Borders-a terrorist marriage and hell's coming with them)
To: Salem; darkwing104
thanks Salem, I could use a laugh. Please put me on your ping list darkwing.
174
posted on
02/27/2007 7:07:22 PM PST
by
Fred Nerks
(Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download. Link on my bio page.)
To: SJackson
Did he ask his question? No.
175
posted on
02/27/2007 7:08:52 PM PST
by
Enosh
(†)
To: Fred Nerks
Done
176
posted on
02/27/2007 7:16:49 PM PST
by
darkwing104
(Let's get dangerous)
To: stylecouncilor
177
posted on
02/27/2007 7:27:49 PM PST
by
DaveLoneRanger
(As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
To: BJClinton
Wonderful! Fantastic! Wherever did you get it??
178
posted on
02/27/2007 7:35:57 PM PST
by
DaveLoneRanger
(As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
To: PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
I would like to get permission to post a question to other Freepers. TY.
.permission denied
To: PATRICKHENRY REPUBLIC
I hate it when I miss a good zot!
180
posted on
02/27/2007 8:16:13 PM PST
by
rdl6989
To: Fierce Allegiance
This was the funniest thread- I was laughing so hard I could not post!!!
181
posted on
02/27/2007 9:35:24 PM PST
by
mojo114
To: JRios1968
182
posted on
02/27/2007 9:42:15 PM PST
by
Danae
(Anail nathrach, orth' bhais's bethad, do chel denmha)
To: Danae
183
posted on
02/27/2007 9:51:55 PM PST
by
JRios1968
(Tagline wanted...inquire within)
To: darkwing104
Can you please add me to your viking kitty/ZOT ping list?
Thanks a bunch!
To: Darksheare
185
posted on
02/27/2007 9:56:56 PM PST
by
Danae
(Anail nathrach, orth' bhais's bethad, do chel denmha)
To: JRios1968
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh
186
posted on
02/27/2007 10:02:04 PM PST
by
Danae
(Anail nathrach, orth' bhais's bethad, do chel denmha)
To: Danae
You have to know these things when you're king...
187
posted on
02/27/2007 10:03:24 PM PST
by
JRios1968
(Tagline wanted...inquire within)
To: Salem
I love that picture! haha
188
posted on
02/28/2007 4:26:52 AM PST
by
lupie
To: Enosh
189
posted on
02/28/2007 4:55:01 AM PST
by
WhiteGuy
(GOP Congress - 16,000 earmarks costing US $50 billion in 2006 - PAUL2008)
To: MonicaG
LOL, you know he forgot the question!
190
posted on
02/28/2007 5:11:16 AM PST
by
WhiteGuy
(GOP Congress - 16,000 earmarks costing US $50 billion in 2006 - PAUL2008)
To: Responsibility2nd; myguns
Hope you enjoy many good yearsYOUR ZOT
here at Free Republic.There. Fixed it.
191
posted on
02/28/2007 6:10:47 AM PST
by
Responsibility2nd
(Warning. If your tagline is funny... I may steal it.)
To: RosieCotton; sionnsar
Wonder if this thread will go undead...We can only hope! It's still "alive" so perhaps, if sion works fast enough, we can have it.
Tomorrow is officially "Moving Day" for the Undead, anyway. Sion?
192
posted on
02/28/2007 6:56:19 AM PST
by
Monkey Face
(Never understimate the power of stupid people in large groups. [Congress is in session.])
To: pax_et_bonum
193
posted on
02/28/2007 6:57:43 AM PST
by
Monkey Face
(Never understimate the power of stupid people in large groups. [Congress is in session.])
To: stylecouncilor
Never make Britney mad at you.
To: DaveLoneRanger
I believe I stole it from some other Zot! thread in response to
195
posted on
02/28/2007 8:17:40 AM PST
by
BJClinton
(articulate and bright and clean and a nice looking guy)
To: Monkey Face
Well, today would normally be Moving Day. I have conflicts this evening, so we'll have to see.
196
posted on
02/28/2007 10:01:35 AM PST
by
sionnsar
(†trad-anglican.faithweb.com†|Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
To: sionnsar
Well, if we don't make it tonight or tomorrow, it's OK, as this is a short month. So we'll take what we can get!
197
posted on
02/28/2007 10:19:20 AM PST
by
Monkey Face
(Never understimate the power of stupid people in large groups. [Congress is in session.])
To: JRios1968
Estimating the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow
Hashing out the classic question with Strouhal numbers and simplified flight waveforms.
by Jonathan Corum
After spending some time last month trying to develop alternate graphic presentations for kinematic ratios in winged flight, I decided to try to answer one of the timeless questions of science: just what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
What do you mean, an African or European Swallow?
To begin with, I needed basic kinematic data on African and European swallow species.
| |
 |
 |
| |
South African Swallow (Hirundo spilodera) |
European Swallow (Hirundo rustica) |
Although 47 of the 74 worldwide swallow species are found in Africa,1 only two species are named after the continent: the West African Swallow (Hirundo domicella) and the South African Swallow (Hirundo spilodera), also known as the South African Cave Swallow.
Since the range of the South African Swallow extends only as far north as Zaire,2 I felt fairly confident that this was the non-migratory African species referred to in previous discussions of the comparative and cooperative weight-bearing capabilities of African and European swallows.3
Kinematic data for both African species was difficult to find, but the Barn or European Swallow (Hirundo rustica) has been studied intensively, and kinematic data for that species was readily available.
It’s a simple question of weight ratios
A 54-year survey of 26,285 European Swallows captured and released by the Avian Demography Unit of the University of Capetown finds that the average adult European swallow has a wing length of 12.2 cm and a body mass of 20.3 grams.4
Because wing beat frequency and wing amplitude both scale with body mass,5 and flight kinematic data is available for at least 22 other bird species,6 it should be possible to estimate the frequency (f ) and amplitude (A) of the European Swallow by a comparison with similar species. With those two numbers, it will be possible to estimate airspeed (U).
In order to maintain airspeed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?
Actually, wrong. By comparing the European Swallow with bird species of similar body mass, we can estimate that the swallow beats its wings 18 times a second with an amplitude of 18 cm:
| Species |
Body mass |
Frequency |
Amplitude |
| Zebra Finch |
13 g |
27 Hz |
11 cm |
| European Swallow |
20 g |
≈ 18 Hz? |
≈ 18 cm? |
| Downy Woodpecker |
27 g |
14 Hz |
29 cm |
| Budgerigar |
34 g |
14 Hz |
15 cm |
Note that even the tiny Zebra Finch flaps its wings no more than 27 times a second while cruising.
If we ignore body mass and look only at bird species with a similar wingspan, we can estimate an average frequency of 14 beats per second and an amplitude of 23 cm:
| Species |
Wingspan |
Frequency |
Amplitude |
| Budgerigar |
27 cm |
14 Hz |
15 cm |
| European Swallow |
≈ 28–30 cm |
≈ 14 Hz? |
≈ 23 cm? |
| Downy Woodpecker |
31 cm |
14 Hz |
29 cm |
| European Starling |
35 cm |
14 Hz |
26 cm |
By averaging all 6 values, we can estimate that an average European Swallow flies at cruising speed with a frequency of roughly 15 beats per second, and an amplitude of roughly 22 cm.
Skip a bit, Brother
Last month’s article on The Strouhal Number in Cruising Flight showed how simplified flight waveforms that graph amplitude versus wavelength can be useful for visualizing the Strouhal ratio (fA/U), a dimensionless parameter that tends to fall in the range of 0.2–0.4 during efficient cruising flight.
For a European Swallow flying with our estimated wingbeat amplitude of 24 cm, the predicted pattern of cruising flight ranges from a Strouhal number (St) of 0.2:
... to a less efficient 0.4:
If the first diagram (St = 0.2) is accurate, then the cruising speed of the European Swallow would be roughly 16 meters per second (15 beats per second * 1.1 meters per beat). If the second diagram (St = 0.4) is accurate, then the cruising speed of the European Swallow would be closer to 8 meters per second (15 beats per second * 0.55 meters per beat).
If we settle on an intermediate Strouhal value of 0.3:
We can estimate the airspeed of the European Swallow to be roughly 11 meters per second (15 beats per second * 0.73 meters per beat).
Three shall be the number thou shalt count
Airspeed can also be predicted using a published formula. By inverting this midpoint Strouhal ratio of 0.3 (fA/U ≈ 0.3), Graham K. Taylor et al. show that as a rule of thumb, the speed of a flying animal is roughly 3 times frequency times amplitude (U ≈ 3fA).5
We now need only plug in the numbers:
U ≈ 3fA
f ≈ 15 (beats per second)
A ≈ 0.22 (meters per beat)
U ≈ 3*15*0.22 ≈ 9.9
... to estimate that the airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is 10 meters per second.
Oh, yeah, I agree with that
With some further study, it became clear that these estimates are accurate, though perhaps coincidental.
An actual study of two European Swallows flying in a low-turbulence wind tunnel in Lund, Sweden, shows that swallows flap their wings much slower than my estimate, at only 7–9 beats per second:
“Compared with other species of similar size, the swallow has quite low wingbeat frequency and relatively long wings.” 7
The maximum speed the birds could maintain was 13–14 meters per second, and although the Lund study does not discuss cruising flight in particular, the most efficient flapping (7 beats per second) occurred at an airspeed in the range of 8–11 meters per second, with an amplitude of 90–100ð (17–19 cm).
And there was much rejoicing
Averaging the above numbers and plugging them in to the Strouhal equation for cruising flight (fA/U = 7 beats per second * 0.18 meters per beat / 9.5 meters per second) yields a Strouhal number of roughly 0.13:
... indicating a surprisingly efficient flight pattern falling well below the expected range of 0.2–0.4.
Although a definitive answer would of course require further measurements, published species-wide averages of wing length and body mass, initial Strouhal estimates based on those averages and cross-species comparisons, the Lund wind tunnel study of birds flying at a range of speeds, and revised Strouhal numbers based on that study all lead me to estimate that the average cruising airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is roughly 11 meters per second, or 24 miles an hour.
What is the capital of Assyria?
For those looking for additional answers, the four capitals of Assyria were Ashur (or Qalat Sherqat), Calah (or Nimrud), the short-lived Dur Sharrukin (or Khorsabad), and Nineveh.8 The ruins of all four ancient cities fall within the modern state of Iraq.
References
Thank to everyone who has written in with comments and questions. Responses are posted here, along with a revised estimate from Dr Graham K. Taylor, and some alternate theories. - Chris & Tilde Stuart
Birds of Africa: From Seabirds to Seed-Eaters
MIT Press (1999)
- G. L. Maclean
Roberts’ Birds of Southern Africa
John Voelcker Bird Book Fund, Cape Town, South Africa (1985)
- Graham Chapman, John Cleese, Eric Idle, Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, Michael Palin
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Python (Monty) Pictures Ltd. (1975)
- Avian Demography Unit
SAFRING results of the European Swallow (Hirundo rustica)
Department of Statistical Sciences, University of Cape Town (2002)
- Graham K. Taylor, Robert L. Nudds, Adrian L. R. Thomas
Flying and swimming animals cruise at a Strouhal number tuned for high power efficiency
Nature 425, 707–711 (October 16, 2003)
- Email correspondence with Graham K. Taylor of the University of Oxford Zoology Department (October 22–23, 2003)
- Kirsty J. Park, Mikael Rosén, Anders Hedenström
Flight kinematics of the barn swallow (Hirundo rustica) over a wide range of speeds in a wind tunnel
The Journal of Experimental Biology 204, 2741–2750 (2001)
- Ashur Cherry
Assyrian History
The Mesopotamian Encyclopedia (2001)
198
posted on
02/28/2007 11:40:42 AM PST
by
NonLinear
(Genesis 16:11-12 pretty much sums it up.)
To: NonLinear
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
199
posted on
02/28/2007 11:59:27 AM PST
by
JRios1968
(Tagline wanted...inquire within)
To: NonLinear
200
posted on
02/28/2007 12:07:47 PM PST
by
BJClinton
(articulate and bright and clean and a nice looking guy)
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