Posted on 07/24/2007 3:47:02 PM PDT by commish
I know I said I'd stay out of this, but enough is enough. Nascar is a sport that has it's roots in illegality. To presume that through some divine intervention, each and all participants should be now lily white, is beyond the pale.
Jr Johnson got his Presidential Pardon from Ronald Reagan, but since he was a conservative, that's OK huh?
To start, in your #35 to me you wrote:
Let us hope when you get home you can come up with something more substantive than an ad_hominem.
Now, from long experience in communications, I know that someone like you with so adamant, entrenched a conviction will not be swayed by anything that doesn't dovetail with your point of view. However, other people read these threads, so the facts I'm going to post are for them to consider should they be of a mind to do so.
In your Post #25, you categorically state:
Rick Hendrick gave $1 million to Bill Clinton’s Foundation thus earning him a Presidential pardon. In my book, that makes him a "Clintonista."
Hate to break it to you, fideist, but despite your certitude, you are 100% wrong about that. Rick Hendrick never paid a dime to Bill Clinton or his foundation. Heck, this is so easy to refute, that I'm going to cite sources that are thoroughly anti-Clinton -- and, by extension, anti anyone he pardoned, including Rick Hendrick. There are many sources on the internet for this information, but I'm going to cite references in our own FreeRepublic.
A search in FR's archives for 'Rick Hendrick Clinton' yields the articles at this link.
You will note the info in these sources (and many others on the internet) makes it clear: Despite ANY evidence, rabid partisans implied that a $500,000 gift from the Bank of America Foundation to the Clinton Library was tied to the Hendrick pardon. Why? Because Rick had been on the Board of Directors of a smaller regional bank purchase by Bank of America. Guilt by association -- a favorite trick of demagogues on all sides of the political divide.
As I said, fideist, I'll let readers of this post make up their own minds. However, I'll note that you mixed up the BofA Foundation with the Clinton foundation, and stretched $500,000 to $1,000,000. And I'll note that the Congressional investigations of these pardons turned up zero evidence of any wrongdoing by Rick Hendrick or the BofA Foundation.
Next:
Rick Hendrick happens to be a registered Republican. He is also a businessman and, like thousands, if not millions of businessmen around the country, he sometimes contributes to the campaigns of Republicans and Democrats. Here is a link to a 2005 USA Today article which shows that in the 2004 election year, Rick contributed comparatively small sums to both a Republican and a Democrat campaign. You'll also note in the same article that Bill and Betty France, Roger Penske, Brian France, and Chip Ganassi all did likewise, despite the fact that some 90% of NASCAR political contributions go to Republicans. (There is a similar list which shows that Dale Earnhardt Sr. contributed 80% to Republicans, Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson 100%, and Dale Junior zero to either party.)
As for your viewpoint that someone pardoned by Bill Clinton means they are a "Clintonista," that can't be refuted because it's your belief. However, I'm glad to note that the Founders who wrote the United States Constitution heartily disagree with you.
Now, as to your extraordinarily presumptuous claim:
Junior is a traitor to the company his father and Theresa created. It was his and Theresa's job to work out their differences. Junior abandoned the mission, that makes him a traitor in my book.
I see that, in addition to all your other qualities -- so ably displayed by you in your posts -- you arrogate to yourself the ability to channel Senior's ghost. So let me get this straight. In your world, any child whose father builds a business is to be enslaved by and forced to run the business after the old man retires or passes on. (Hmmmmm...should I ask if that only goes for sons? Only sons who have the old man's name? Only sons of famous racing icons? Only sons of famous racing icons because fideist was a fan of the old man?)
So it is fedist's edict that such boy children are not entitled to their own lives, but must live out the dead father's life instead. Charming worldview you have there, fedist.
You are making following racing on FR unfun with your attitude. I like the NASCAR threads because they are a refuge from the FR infighting, and you are spoiling it.
Speaking of attacking a driver or team owner....
Agreed! But I am not the one backing down from counter-arguments.
I am perfectly willing to entertain arguments against my criticisms.
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Did ya ever think that maybe some of us here don’t want to have to be part of this “counter-arguments” or whatever kick you have been on a tear with of late on this and the race thread?
Just a thought.
This is not a High Volume Ping List and is intended primarily to alert folks of the posting of the weekly Nascar qualifying and race threads.
Occasional sports or military or prayers Pings using the list may also be sent as situation or subject dictates.
Profanities, taunting and flame wars and belligerence in observing common sense courtesy and family decency standards on the thread may result in serious sanctions.
FYI: I just noticed that the link to the FR search page with the Hendrick pardon articles does not “stick.” You’ll have to select “Archive” in the first field (vs. “Quick”) and then click the search button. Then you’ll see the articles.
Bravo Wolfstar.
It’s unfortunate that some folks need to spout irresponsible claims. Most say ignore those type of posts, but I feel there are others who may read lies written on the internet about others and then believe them to be true. Thus, continuing that kind of misinformed garbage on other forums.
I am so tired of Rick Hendrick being castigated over and over. It needs to be put to rest once and for all and you hopefully have done that.
Now, as for Jr.
I agree with you when you ask does he have to remain at a place his father owned, no matter what? He needed to leave the nest and be his own man, no more being compared to the old man over and over and over. He has said it was a very difficult decision, but one he had to make for reasons we may never know. We do know, he said they sold bits and pieces of him many times over and he honored that only because he honors his father. But, when there was no give and take and they could not agree on the direction of the company to make it viable he felt it was time to leave. And, as I have had to say before that is his perogative.
There has to be a damn good reason Tony Eury Sr is now working at JRM.
It was reported yesterday that all merchandising for Jr will happen through JRM. He said previously the PTB at the old place had more than 70 that he was contracted to in some form or other. He wants to keep it VERY small beginning with Sony and Adidas. I have corresponded with the VP over at JRM and she was instrumental in putting those two together for him. Yes SHE, lol........Kelley and Thayer are instrumental in Jr’s business his future and his life.
He is his own man and one his father would be very proud of.
I thank you for your honest and truthful debate here.
And thanks to all who did stand up for truth here.
You are all are so right! I was the one that started it! Read this WHOLE thread, and the ones the preceeded it. Maybe you haven’t noticed because it is not your goat getting gored?
I am to ignore when DEI is insultingly called “TEI.”
I am to ignore when Teresa is insultingly called “Wicked stepmother;” “witch,” and “absentqueenb.”
I am to ignore when my team (DEI) is insulted by those who warn other drivers if they go to my team “they will be booed.”
Ands on, and on, and on.
But I am called to the carpet for calling Junior a traitor and Rick Hendrick a Clintonista.
You may attempt to swing the ax in only one direction, but justice dictates it cuts both ways.
Just stop, will ya?
Keep this off the race thread and keep it here.
The DEI team has legal help and will get by just fine regardless what anyone here or elsewhere has ever said here or elsewhere.
That comment I made earlier on the race thread about growing thicker skin wasn’t meant for just you and WCG and a few others that may be offended from time to time when their driver or team is the topic of scorn or ridicule or hearsay.
The race thread was never intended to be a knockdown dragout affair, so Don’t go there! Take your goat or ox elsewhere.
Folks that want to drag and toss mud be it either “self-defense’) or just to be spiteful , you’re on notice. I’ll leave it at that.
Maybe the race thread isn’t the best place for some folks to hang out.
Nuff said.
You are a fan of DEI. Great! I'm a Jeff Gordon fan. Not an HMS fan, or a Rick Hendrick fan, or a NASCAR fan. Just a JG fan. If I tried to refute all the nasty things said about him on various internet boards, I wouldn't have a life. So I learned to ignore most of it, because it doesn't really affect Jeff or me. He's laughing all the way to the bank, and I'm loving the heights his career is reaching. I don't need external validation to enjoy what I enjoy. It's called maturity, I guess. You might try it sometime. It has its own rewards.
If you read my post upward, you will see that was my position EXACTLY.
Wolfstar, you are a conundrum. You appear to be the most reasonable of those against me in this debate, yet you continue to be the only one on either side hurling personal attacks. (I was accused of personaly attacking FReepers who like HMS of being “less principled,” but clearly that requires ignoring all that I have written on this thread, because I clearly stated on another post “So what then are we to say of FReepers who are HMS fans? Are they less principled? I don’t think so.”).
Appealing to the former rationality, I will make one last attempt and then drop it. I NEVER started the insults. I reacted to insults with insults. That does not make me morally right, but nor is it morally right to only condemn me for being insulting.
It PAINS me that my fellow FReeper NASCAR enhtusiasts will stand by and idly watch someone insult my favorite team, and then throw me under the bus for replying to that person in kind. What is morally right is not subjective here, it is objective.
I admit I was immature and wrong to insult another person’s driver/team, in particular as a response. But I also think it is wrong and inconsiderate of certain individuals to continually insult my team. AND, I think it was wrong for the all of you to only condemn me.
I am done.
I admit I was immature and wrong to insult another person’s driver/team, in particular as a response. But I also think it is wrong and inconsiderate of certain individuals to continually insult my team. AND, I think it was wrong for the all of you to only condemn me.
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Drop the melodrama already.
You should have been on the race threads the first year.. it took a bit to get it turned around. It seems like every year we go thru some “crisis” as someone gets a little too edgy in their postings.
I don’t enjoy seeing this play out or being also held up to critique by you and others in the past in a oblique way.
You got issues , fine , lay them out, just don’t feel others are as insulted as you when they come out. That’s why I discourage this kind of ionterchange, it is not what the thread was started for or was intended to be about.
The thread wasn’t started so folks could whine about this and that, Yeah folks say mean and sometimes stupid things on the thread.
You, however, are milking this woe or plight or lone victim act a bit too far.
As far as pain goes that you feeel on the threads as the “lone defender of DEI”, try some advil or tylenol. as to being thrown under the bus, We don’t allow buses on the track.
If folks want to take all this stuff about racing so seriously, you’re needing to take a deep breath or two before posting a defense on the threads.
I can’t believe how petty some folks can get , I don’t insult others on the threads and don’t encourage or relish seeing it happen and have never chosen to assassinate teams and drivers with words, well, none except their own and when duly deserved.
There is no melodrama involved. I spoke sincerely and from the heart. My team was repeatedly insulted, I immaturely responded in kind, and only I was thrown under the bus for it.
Like I said, drop the victim act.
I have no real dog in this fight, but I think that you're whitewashing this a bit by implying there's no connection between Rick Hendrick and Hugh McColl, Jr., other than the former was a director of a bank that the latter purchased.
...smaller regional bank...
It was the third-largest bank in the country at that time! And although it took on the name "Bank of America," it was actually NationsBank that bought BankAmerica in the deal. And who was the Chairman of NationsBank while Rick Hendrick was a director? Hugh McColl. Who became Chairman and CEO of Bank of America? Hugh McColl. Who is a longtime political ally of Bill Clinton? Hugh McColl.
Hugh McColl also wrote a letter to President Clinton recommending a pardon for Rick Hendrick, and--as chairman and CEO of Bank of America--announced a $500,000 donation toward the Clinton library immediately prior to the pardon. While BoA has also donated toward other libraries and the donation itself might be unrelated, it would be disingenuous to simply dismiss any connection between the pardon and Hugh McColl, considering the letter.
My interest in the sport is what happens on the track...and I am not defending fideist's posts...but I just had to comment that this seemed a bit too far in the other direction.
100% of what you posted is guilt by association. Pure guilt by association and nothing more. Because A did this, and B did that, and C knew A, why of course B helped C because of A. Only thing you're missing is a little thing called evidence. But even if evidence existed of what you and others infer through the series of circumstances you tie together, a funny little document called the United States Constituion doesn't care a whit.
Rick Hendrick filed his request for a pardon through his attorney in a fully lawful manner. He was pardoned by the then-President of the United States. Much as millions of us despise Bill Clinton, and I surely do, he was the duly elected and sworn in president. And he owes no one any explanations for why he chose to exercise his pardoning power in the Hendrick case or in any other case.
Article II, Section 2, Clause 4 of the U.S. Constitution reads, "and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States."
The power to grant reprieves and pardons is absolute and rests solely with the president. The Constitution places no restrictions of any kind on that power. It does not say the president can grant a reprieve or pardon only if he is a conservative or Republican, or only if he or his foundation accepts no donations, or only if the person being pardoned does not know anyone remotely associated with the president.
People who keep bringing up Rick Hendrick's pardon do so in order to smear him. They take nothing else about the man's life into account other than (1) someone he knows and served on a corporate board with is a Democrat who contributed to the Clinton foundation, and (2) Rick owns HMS.
They don't take into account the fact that single felony for which he was convicted was a case of mail fraud. Not that he paid for his convinction of that single felony through legal due process. Not that he has done good, charitable things for people many times over, and has lived an exemplary life ever since his mistake.
Nope, in the small minds of people who hate him for totally idiotic reasons, the scales of justice and mercy do not accept counterweights of good works, a kind and generous heart, and a life mostly lived well.
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