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A Study in Science - Formal Debate on Creation and Evolution with Dave and Ryan

Posted on 10/18/2007 7:03:45 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger

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1 posted on 10/18/2007 7:03:48 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger
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To: gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; AndrewC; Havoc; ...


You have been pinged because of your interest regarding news, debate and editorials pertaining to the Creation vs. Evolution debate - from the young-earth creationist perspective.
To to get on or off this list (currently the premier list for creation/evolution news!), freep-mail me:
Add me / Remove me

2 posted on 10/18/2007 7:05:12 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger ("Being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.")
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To: DaveLoneRanger

The large audience sits patiently awaiting the introduction of tonight’s debaters. A hush falls over the crowd as the gentlemen walk onto the stage. . .


3 posted on 10/18/2007 7:11:38 PM PDT by ZGuy ("Modern universities and colleges are the biggest fraud on the planet." -- David Allen White.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

As the crowd grows impatient, a voice cries out “They’ve got the game on out in the lobby!” and people begin filing out. . .


4 posted on 10/18/2007 7:25:40 PM PDT by ZGuy ("Modern universities and colleges are the biggest fraud on the planet." -- David Allen White.)
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To: ZGuy

While “the large audience” is waiting, some may be interested in this info:

“Loren and Deb Haarsma, two Calvin faculty (physics & astronomy,
respectively) have extensive experience speaking and teaching about science
and Christian faith to a variety of audiences and in a variety of venues.
Their hard work is now partly available on the web, but also now in a new
book from Faith Alive Christian Resources (Grand Rapids, 2007). The
attractive cover proclaims the title, “Origins: A Reformed Look at Creation,
Design, & Evolution.” Here is further information:

http://www.calvin.edu/news/releases/2007-08/origins.htm

We have several times ...talked about the lack of helpful
materials that would be good for Christian schools and home schooling
families, on issues of science & faith. We now have, IMO, the best answer
for that problem—though I also continue to recommend the various
publications of Michael Poole, which are almost impossible easily to obtain
on this side of the pond. ...” ~ Ted Davis ASA


5 posted on 10/18/2007 7:27:20 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Mrs. Clinton reminds every happily re-married guy of his first wife." ~ Rush paraphrased.)
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More for some of those who are “waiting”:

http://www.probe.org/radio-program/radio-program/this-weeks-program.html


Origin Science
Kerby Anderson
Origin Science versus Operation Science

Recently Probe produced a DVD based small group curriculum entitled
Redeeming Darwin: The Intelligent Design Controversy. It has been a
great way to inform Christians about Intelligent Design and show them
how to use a conversation about this topic to share the gospel.

This year also marks the twentieth anniversary of a book Norman Geisler
and I published entitled Origin Science.{1} In light of the current
controversy concerning intelligent design, I want to revisit some of the
points we made in this book because they help us better understand some
of the key elements in the debate about origins.

The foundational concept in the book was that there is a fundamental
difference between operation science and origin science. Operation
science is what most of us think of when we talk about science. It deals
with regularities. In other words, there are regular recurring patterns
that we can observe, and we can do experiments on those patterns.
Observation and repeatability are two foundational tools of operation
science.

Origin science differs from operation science because it does not deal
with present regularities. Instead it focuses on a singular action in
the past. As we say in the book, “The great events of origin were
singularities. The origin of the universe is not recurring. Nor is the
origin of life, or the origin of major new forms of life.”{2}

We argued that “a science which deals with origin events does not fall
within the category of empirical science, which deals with observed
regularities in the present. Rather, it is more like forensic
science.”{3} In many ways, origin science is more like the scientific
investigations done by crime scene investigators. The crime was a
singular event and often there was no observer. But CSI investigators
can use the available evidence to reconstruct the crime.

Likewise, research into origin science must use the available evidence
(the bones and the stones) to try to reconstruct a past event. We
therefore concluded that:

In origin science it is necessary to find analogies in the present
to these events in the past. Thus, for example, if evidence is
forthcoming that life can now be synthesized from chemicals (without
intelligent manipulation) under conditions similar to those reasonably
assumed to have once existed on the primitive earth, then a naturalistic
(secondary-cause) explanation of the origin of life is plausible. If, on
the other hand, it can be shown that the kind of complex information
found in a living cell is similar to that which can be regularly
produced by an intelligent (primary) cause, then it can be plausibly
argued that there was an intelligent cause of the first living organism.{4}


6 posted on 10/18/2007 7:31:17 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Mrs. Clinton reminds every happily re-married guy of his first wife." ~ Rush paraphrased.)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: DaveLoneRanger

“We, who are about to die, salute you!”


8 posted on 10/18/2007 7:41:59 PM PDT by Rocky
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Waiting calmly for the proceedings to proceed.


9 posted on 10/18/2007 7:57:41 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: ZGuy

Sitting patiently? I’m off to make some popcorn.


10 posted on 10/18/2007 7:57:48 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Rocky

LOL!!


11 posted on 10/18/2007 8:28:56 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger ("Being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.")
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Who wins the debate if nobody shows up?

Maybe we should start a debate of our own --

RESOLVED: All right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary decent people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired.

12 posted on 10/18/2007 8:30:29 PM PDT by ZGuy ("Modern universities and colleges are the biggest fraud on the planet." -- David Allen White.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Thanks, Dave. I will now present 3 major lines of evidence for evolution. When you see this (1) that is there to denote the passage. A reference will be posted at the bottom.

Evidence #1 The Fossil Record

When you start off with a 5 toed horse like animal, then higher up in the strata find a 4 toed horse like animal, then a 3 toed, then a single toed, what does that mean to you? The Geologic column is riddled with example after example of this. Here is the infamous horse series:

http://chem.tufts.edu/science/evolution/HorseEvolution.htm

Here are other examples:

Elephants
http://allelephants.com/allinfo/evol.php

Whales
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_03

Titanothere
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0/evo_54

The Sea Sloths
http://laelaps.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/the-giant-swimming-sloths-of-south-america/

Why is the fossil record littered with sequences that just so happen to be in an order that makes them look like they evolved? I cannot make sense of it without evolution. In fact, I think anyone who saw these sequences would suggest evolution, had it not already been proposed so long ago.

Evidence #2 ERV’s

Another Major line of Evidence is the Endogenous retroviruses (ERV’s). About 8 percent of our genome is made up of these ERV’s(1). On a rare occasion a virus will insert itself into it’s host’s genome at random(2), and the host’s descendants will inherit this and have the virus in their genome. Our genome is 3 billion base pairs, so it is extremely unlikely that any creature would share the exact same virus in the exact same place in the genome. But yet humans and primates do have the same viruses in the same places in their genome.(3)

1. http://www.retrovirology.com/content/3/1/67
2. The Blue Lollipops show the regions that HIV has inserted:
http://biology.plosjournals.org/archive/1545-7885/2/8/figure/10.1371_journal.pbio.0020234.g001-L.jpg

Full article:
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0020234
NOTE: When it says “distinct target site preference” it does not refer to one specific place, but rather a very wide range of places (the gene, the promoter of the gene).

3. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/18/10254

Evidence #3 Embryological Evidence

Now, the first thing I want to make perfectly clear is that I am NOT referring to Haeckel’s work nor to his long discarded theory. Ontogeny does not recapitalate Phylogeny, but there are some interesting similarities in development which I believe are best explained by evolution.

Mammal Kidneys

Mammal Embryos develop 3 sets of kidneys(1). The first, pronephros, is the same set found in primitive fish like Lampreys.(2)
After 3.5 weeks, the mammal embryo replaces it. The second set, the mesonephros, is the same set found in higher fish and amphibians. In human males it gives rise to urogenital structures, while in females the remnants are vestigial. The third set (Metanephros) is the set which develops and becomes the adults set of kidneys, and it is the same set found in mammals and birds.

Other Evidence

Snakes as well as Dolphins are known to develop legs as embryos, only to reabsorb them later. (3)

Whales Develop hair as embryos, only to discard it later (except for the nosehair) (4)

1. http://www.uoguelph.ca/zoology/devobio/210labs/kidney2.html
2. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9061539/pronephros
All Kidneys are listed here:
http://www.britannica.com/search?query=Mesonephros&ct=&searchSubmit.x=0&searchSubmit.y=0
3. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#ontogeny_ex3
4. http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol20/94_origin_of_whales_and_the_power_12_30_1899.asp

Thank you Dave, you now have the floor. : )


13 posted on 10/18/2007 8:30:45 PM PDT by AiGBusted
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To: LiteKeeper

He’s new, so his post has to be approved. But he’s informed me that he’s submitted it for review.


14 posted on 10/18/2007 8:31:27 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger ("Being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.")
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I’m all ears. Let the games begin!


15 posted on 10/18/2007 8:33:38 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: AiGBusted
Thanks, Ryan. Your post would have to clear at 11:30. I'll be reading, responding, rebutting and refuting, probably at least within 48 hours, probably sooner.
16 posted on 10/18/2007 8:33:47 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger ("Being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.")
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To: Matchett-PI
“Loren and Deb Haarsma, two Calvin faculty (physics & astronomy, respectively)...

WHAT!!??!!!! Hobbes isn't represented at all?

Cheers!

17 posted on 10/18/2007 8:37:20 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: AiGBusted; DaveLoneRanger

==Evidence #2 ERV’s...1). On a rare occasion a virus will insert itself into it’s host’s genome at random(2), and the host’s descendants will inherit this and have the virus in their genome. Our genome is 3 billion base pairs, so it is extremely unlikely that any creature would share the exact same virus in the exact same place in the genome. But yet humans and primates do have the same viruses in the same places in their genome.(3)==

AiGBusted....This is easily explained by showing that many kinds of “ERVs” are actually functional elements - sometimes they even have vital functions without with the creature would die. This feature is consistent with common design. Also many ERVs have preferred target sites where they “like” to insert themselves. Ever hear of hotspots?

As I mentioned before, this is easily explained by showing that many kinds of “ERVs” are actually functional elements - sometimes they even have vital functions without with the creature would die. This feature is consistent with common design. Also many ERVs have preferred target sites where they “like” to insert themselves.


18 posted on 10/18/2007 8:57:30 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: AiGBusted; DaveLoneRanger

Sorry for posting original and edited version....but you get the point.


19 posted on 10/18/2007 9:25:43 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: AiGBusted

1). On a rare occasion a virus will insert itself into it’s host’s genome at random

That’s one heck of an assumption. Please cite your evidence that ERV insertions are random.


20 posted on 10/18/2007 9:51:12 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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