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Two Guns Owned By Mexican Folk Hero Pancho Villa Up For Auction (Calamity Jane's Gun: For Auction)
Dallas News ^ | November 7, 2007 | Associated Press

Posted on 11/10/2007 1:20:58 PM PST by DogByte6RER

Two guns owned by Mexican folk hero Pancho Villa up for auction

Wednesday, November 7, 2007

Associated Press

SAN ANTONIO – Whether or not Pancho Villa is remembered as an infamous outlaw or a revolutionary hero, everyone agrees that the folk hero of the 1910 Mexican Revolution always carried guns.

Now two of those firearms, and one that belonged to frontierswoman "Calamity Jane," will be up for bidding in an auction beginning Saturday in Fredericksburg. The auction is open for public preview on Friday.

"He always carried a gun to the day of his death and he didn't care what it was," Tom Burks, manager of the auction and former curator for the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, said of Villa. "He knew his life didn't depend on a fancy gun."

Also Online Frontier Times Western Auction But one of them is a real beaut'.

Villa's Remington single action revolver, engraved with a scroll pattern, will clearly be the star of the auction. The big draw is that it has Villa's real name, "Doreteo Arango," engraved on one side of the barrel. On the other side is "Chih-1914," around the time Villa became governor of the Mexican state of Chihuahua.

Burks said the gun model dates to 1875.

Another gun in the auction, which features about 1,000 Old West items, once belonged to "Calamity Jane," Burks said. The pocket pistol, which comes in its leather case, bears the moniker "Martha Jane Cannary," the frontierswoman's real name.

Also available is a mauser carbine rifle that Villa reportedly dropped in the Rio Grande during a skirmish with opposition forces. Documents accompanying the rifle say a woman fished it out of the water and sold it to a young man who later gave it to his sister.

(Excerpt) Read more at dallasnews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; History; Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; calamityjane; guns; gunsandammo; historicfirearms; history; oldwest; panchovilla
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I think Calamity Jane could have kicked Pancho Villa's ass even on her worst and most drunken day...
1 posted on 11/10/2007 1:21:00 PM PST by DogByte6RER
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To: DogByte6RER
I was so disappointed when I found out somebody already had her real name for Cowboy Action Shooting . . .

. . . but it's o.k. I'm a Crow Indian lady scout instead . . . .

2 posted on 11/10/2007 1:22:38 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: DogByte6RER

"I don't need no steenkin' guns no more..."

3 posted on 11/10/2007 1:29:16 PM PST by mikrofon
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To: mikrofon
"Tell them I said something."

- last words of Pancho Villa

4 posted on 11/10/2007 1:45:52 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

“Calamity Jane”

Too bad they didn’t have penicillin back in those days.


5 posted on 11/10/2007 2:09:07 PM PST by BerryDingle (Illegitimi Non Carborundum (Don't let the bastards wear you down))
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To: AnAmericanMother

My maternal grandmother at age 4 was one of three siblings who were smuggled out of Mexico after Villas men killed her parents. They were landowners.


6 posted on 11/10/2007 2:12:01 PM PST by VR-21 (Leftists justify their existance by kicking their own country in the teeth.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

But they turned Pancho into such a lovely collander!


7 posted on 11/10/2007 2:12:02 PM PST by elcid1970
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To: DogByte6RER

Reminds me of the story I heard that Jesse James’ mother would go down to the local store and buy a bucket of cheap pistols to sell the tourists as “Jesse’s personal gun”. There are still probably dozens of these floating around out there.


8 posted on 11/10/2007 2:13:00 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: ozzymandus

Pretty good scam.


9 posted on 11/10/2007 2:14:54 PM PST by Joe Boucher (An enemy of Islam)
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To: AnAmericanMother
I was so disappointed when I found out somebody already had her real name for Cowboy Action Shooting . . .

Here's your chance to pick up her BUG...

10 posted on 11/10/2007 2:16:36 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: Joe Boucher

I saw a crappy old pistol on display in the public library recently with a card telling some ridiculous story that it was Jesse’s. Some farmer claimed he came across the James Gang camping overnight on his farm, and many years later, his grandson plowed up this POS $2 pistol. Combine the two tales, and you’ve got “Jesse James” pistol”. I’d like to think most people have more sense than that.


11 posted on 11/10/2007 2:19:03 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: elcid1970

Too bad they shot up the car. It was a nice car.


12 posted on 11/10/2007 2:20:53 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: DogByte6RER

13 posted on 11/10/2007 2:21:19 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: xsrdx
Nah, I'm getting a Crow skinning knife instead.

"Virtue pistols" are all well and good, but with 2 Ruger SAA revolvers, a Stoeger coach gun, and a Winchester lever action, I think I'll be pretty well equipped.

14 posted on 11/10/2007 2:23:30 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
He don't look that bad for a guy shot 47 times.

Did they put a clean shirt on him, or what?

15 posted on 11/10/2007 2:24:19 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: DogByte6RER

16 posted on 11/10/2007 2:25:48 PM PST by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life :o)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
It would appear that Pancho is where the X is in the above photo.
17 posted on 11/10/2007 2:26:04 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: ozzymandus

Bat Materson used to do the same thing.

I met Col. Jeff Cooper and had the urge to ask if he would sell his 1911. I was in the middle of wondering if I could afford it and backed off.

There was a doctor who had his Scout rifle signed by Cooper with a magic marker. I realized he now had a rifle he would be nuts to continue to use after that.


18 posted on 11/10/2007 2:26:18 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Liberty Valance
Panco Villa Collection


19 posted on 11/10/2007 2:29:42 PM PST by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life :o)
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To: AnAmericanMother
. . . but it's o.k. I'm a Crow Indian lady scout instead . . . .

So you're saying "Wild Bill" is probably spoken for then? Any of the Younger brothers available?

Coolest part of SASS is the mounted shooting, although I'd like to see IPSC targets and live ammo. Yeeha!

And I thought 3 Gun was expensive.

20 posted on 11/10/2007 2:31:55 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: xsrdx
ANYbody you ever heard of is already taken.

It got so bad, a lady in our club just took the moniker "Not Yet Taken".

Nobody had gotten my lady, because she isn't well known even though she worked for General Crook (her brother was killed by the Lakota, and she was out for revenge.)

If the closest mounted club weren't down in FLORIDA, I would be doing mounted shooting in a heartbeat. Even though I have a tall skinny Tbred hunter-jumper she is already broke to gun. And we would clean up in the mounted contests where they have to jump something - not so well in anything that looks like a barrel race. My girl won't set any land speed records anywhere, but she's utterly bombproof and can jump the moon.

21 posted on 11/10/2007 2:43:01 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: ozzymandus

Listen, I have Adolph Hitlers L.L.Bean boots I’ll sell ya real cheap.


22 posted on 11/10/2007 2:47:25 PM PST by Joe Boucher (An enemy of Islam)
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To: xsrdx

SASS non-mounted which came first does use live ammo and I believe the targets have more imagination built into them than IPSC.


23 posted on 11/10/2007 2:50:17 PM PST by Plains Drifter (If guns kill people, wouldn't there be a lot of dead people at gun shows?)
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To: AnAmericanMother
(her brother was killed by the Lakota, and she was out for revenge.)

...Red Cloud and Crazy Horse caused a lot of trouble out West. Just about brought Crook to wits end.

24 posted on 11/10/2007 2:50:41 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: AnAmericanMother

I think that is not Pancho. Pancho is where the X in the picture is.

Meanwhile, a real find would be the head of Pancho Villa sa it was stolen from his corpse several years later.

I wonder if Warren Oates did it!


25 posted on 11/10/2007 2:52:10 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: DogByte6RER

I’d want Pancho’s bandoliers. I thought THOSE were cool.


26 posted on 11/10/2007 2:53:18 PM PST by Fido969 ("The hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax." - Albert Einstein)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Are you sure that isn't Gov. Corzine in that picture. I understand he had a similar pose in the aftermath of his car accident.

27 posted on 11/10/2007 3:04:15 PM PST by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway~~John Wayne)
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To: mass55th

If you look close at the bottom of the picture you will see two names. Villa is the first one with a small x above the name. If you look straight up into the picture to the right of the woman spectator’s head you can see another X. That is Villa.

One of the other posts I made of a picture taken from the hood you can also see him.


28 posted on 11/10/2007 3:53:18 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Plains Drifter
SASS non-mounted which came first does use live ammo

..and I'm sure the wax bullets they use in Vegas are a real handful.

and I believe the targets have more imagination built into them than IPSC.

No argument there. Plus, you get to wear chaps and call each other "buckaroo".

29 posted on 11/10/2007 3:55:49 PM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Maybe I should have said my comment about it being Corzine was a joke.


30 posted on 11/10/2007 4:14:37 PM PST by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway~~John Wayne)
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To: Plains Drifter

I was turned off from having anything to do with SASS when I noticed the recoil on the guns. It looked like they were shooting .22’s. Don’t they need a proven power factor in order to compete?

I did like the use of shotguns, rifles and handguns but all at the same time? No thanks.


31 posted on 11/10/2007 7:40:57 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5; Plains Drifter; xsrdx
My husband shoots 45 Long Colt. Plenty of recoil there.

I'm starting out with .38 Special/.357 just because the distances are relatively short. My carry gun is a Combat Commander in .45 ACP and my target pistol is a 1911A1 in .45, but they won't let me shoot those!

There are some people who download the .38 spl but there aren't many of them. The big problem with that is that you don't get knockdown on the moveable targets. It's like using downloaded .30 caliber on the metallic silhouette and then hearing it hit the rams and just watching them sit there. It's counterproductive.

The scenarios can be a good deal more creative than IPSC and the time pressure is fairly intense. I like it! (I've just got to get the hang of loading those darned revolvers! I have never been a wheelgun person!)

32 posted on 11/10/2007 8:42:23 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Shooter 2.5
If you're in the cowboy class, you have to shoot .40 caliber or better.

And of course you don't shoot all three arms at once! (you put the others down first.)

33 posted on 11/10/2007 8:48:11 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: VR-21; Liberty Valance
Villa was definitely a bad guy. He swore he’d kill every Chinese/Asian in Mexico. He tried pretty hard to live up to his word. He just liked murder. And he killed a lot of people when he wasn’t murdering them.
34 posted on 11/10/2007 9:38:30 PM PST by Brucifer (G. W. Bush "The dog ate my copy of the Constitution.")
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To: Shooter 2.5; Plains Drifter; AnAmericanMother
I was turned off from having anything to do with SASS when I noticed the recoil on the guns.

I think SASS is probably the best thing to happen to shooting sports in recent history. They have 10 times the membership of USPSA or IDPA, and their membership and funding have helped build - and protect - some magnificent shooting facilities. It's a very nonthreatening shooting sport - that aspect entices a lot of people to shoot that might not otherwise be interested.

But it's easier shooting - the guns don't recoil much, the targets are big and up close, all steel - so no taping, and scoring is a no brainer. A hit is a hit, perimeter or A zone. It takes a lot of skill to win, but it's different.

They did a lot of stuff right, and they have the membership to show for it. Plus, you get to participate in the masquerade aspect, from a period that many Americans hold in romantic high esteem. And the stages are incredibly ornate and imaginative, within the constraints of the SASS design limitations.

That said, I wish they'd be a little less hostile to other shooting sports, their founding membership seems to have inculcated a specific hatred of USPSA/IPSC in particular, and I'm not sure exactly where it came from because the disciplines aren't all that different.

If Doc Holliday were walking around today, he wouldn't be packing an Uberti SAA.

35 posted on 11/11/2007 5:23:33 AM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Don’t they need a proven power factor in order to compete?

No PF for SASS, in fact they often use cream of wheat to top off the small charges in those big cases.

No need to cycle any action - your thumb does that - so as long as the bullet makes it to the target you're good.

36 posted on 11/11/2007 5:29:57 AM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: AnAmericanMother

It did look like a lot of fun but as I said, I was turned off by the lack of recoil in the guns regardless of the caliber. I also tried to watch that movie “Hell to Pay” which employed a lot of the SASS members but the acting was atrocious. The special features for the movie were more fun to watch.

There’s supposed to be a huge match at Glen Rose, Texas on the third weekend of the month. I still want to take a ride out there and check it out someday. Only problen is the third Saturday is my IDPA matches.


37 posted on 11/11/2007 6:10:53 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: xsrdx

I didn’t think they had a power factor. We had a guy sneak into a IDPA match shooting a .38 revolver using squibs. It was ridiculous.
SASS should also get rid of that two hand hold for all their classifications instead of just “Duelists”. I never have seen a Remington or Russell painting where they needed two hands. Just saying.


38 posted on 11/11/2007 6:17:12 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: xsrdx

Having been in SASS for over 16 years, yes SASS was started by some folks who didn’t have alot of use for IPSC shooters. SASS was supposed to be about people and families getting together and having fun. When I compete I more interested in the costume than a high score. I don’t know about Ubertis as I carry Colt 44-40s and a Winchester ‘92 and a Winchester shotgun 12 gauge model 97. The gamers are the guys with the small caliber and the light loads. The guys that are in for fun like myself are shooting the 44s and the 45s. Speaking of fun, it’s more fun to shoot at targets from moving gold mining carts and bucking mechanical horses than it is to stand at a firing line in some of the IPSC outfits I’ve seen.


39 posted on 11/11/2007 7:27:05 AM PST by Plains Drifter (If guns kill people, wouldn't there be a lot of dead people at gun shows?)
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To: Plains Drifter
Speaking of fun, it’s more fun to shoot at targets from moving gold mining carts and bucking mechanical horses than it is to stand at a firing line in some of the IPSC outfits I’ve seen.

I certainly get your point about having a good time; I'm sure that's why SASS has such a huge membership. I think SASS is big enough to pay staff to run the bigger matches?

USPSA is all volunteer, except for a very small administrative staff, which really limits the time people are willing to put into elaborate matches.

40 posted on 11/11/2007 11:39:05 AM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Like I said, our club is not downloading. They rather frown on that as somewhat wimpy. I'm certainly not afraid of a substantial charge - we load our own for a lot of calibers in excess of .40 - including .41 Mag and .455 Webley among the more oddball ones.
41 posted on 11/11/2007 4:35:19 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Plains Drifter

I wondered what they had that mechanical horse up at the livery stable scenario for!!!!!!


42 posted on 11/11/2007 4:36:30 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

I’m sure your club doesn’t but like the guy who was shooting at our club, it doesn’t take much for a spectator to get the wrong idea as to the rules. There’s gamesters in all of our sports that take the fun out of it for the rest of us.

One incident comes to mind. There was a competitor who ran out of rounds on the last target. Instead of losing time by reloading, he took the miss by yelling out, “BANG”. The spectators including me gave out a silent WTF. When the awards were issued our hero was tied for first place. If I remember, the officials knocked him down to third.

By the way, I would love to see a picture of your Webley. I’ve liked them since watching the movie, “The Mummy”.


43 posted on 11/11/2007 6:05:40 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: AnAmericanMother; Shooter 2.5
Like I said, our club is not downloading.

You'd never know without a chrono stage. I can just about guarantee the top finishers are shooting light loads.

If not, they'll eventually get beat my somebody that is.

44 posted on 11/12/2007 6:02:49 AM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: xsrdx
I can most certainly tell if somebody's downloading.

And if you 'don't know without a chrono stage,' how the heck are YOU perceiving that they're downloading, hmmm?

Answer: By the visible recoil and noise, of course, just like I do.

45 posted on 11/12/2007 7:24:19 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Shooter 2.5; xsrdx
I met Col. Jeff Cooper and had the urge to ask if he would sell his 1911. I was in the middle of wondering if I could afford it and backed off.

If you caught him in a good mood, he'd have chuckled and asked you what you were going to throw in for boot. When I met him, he admired the work done on my not-exactly stock M1911/Commander by the late Armand Swenson, and I offered to trade him for his gold-plated and trimmed M1911A1, which I believe was one that came back from the War in the Pacific with him. The *How much more for boot* answer was the reply I got...so no deal. We both knew I wasn't really serious.

There was a doctor who had his Scout rifle signed by Cooper with a magic marker. I realized he now had a rifle he would be nuts to continue to use after that.

Colonel Cooper was curious about the yellow plastic grip on the ejection port side of my M1911A1, and I explained to him that it was an old tank crewman's affectation, being severely discouraged by higher headquarters, but frequently observed in our tank battalion, which at the time had posted the highest-ever tank gunnery scores recorded on the NATO/USAREUR gunnery range. In a tanker's shoulder holster, the only grip that shows to a viewer is the rightside/ ejection port-side grip panel.

He dug around in his stuff and came up with a well-used and yellowed ivory grip panel for the other [slidestop] side, smooth and uncheckered. And he signed it for me.

It's now instead on the Swenson bobcat he had handled and admired that day. The Colonel was most certainly a class act.

46 posted on 11/12/2007 1:27:23 PM PST by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: Shooter 2.5
SASS should also get rid of that two hand hold for all their classifications instead of just “Duelists”. I never have seen a Remington or Russell painting where they needed two hands. Just saying.

Them was the days when a feller was taught that he held his reins in t'other hand, or his saber.

47 posted on 11/12/2007 1:32:34 PM PST by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: xsrdx
No argument there. Plus, you get to wear chaps and call each other "buckaroo".

Better'n getting callked cowpoke. Some folks get fussy 'bout that....

48 posted on 11/12/2007 1:34:07 PM PST by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: ozzymandus
I saw a crappy old pistol on display in the public library recently with a card telling some ridiculous story that it was Jesse’s. Some farmer claimed he came across the James Gang camping overnight on his farm, and many years later, his grandson plowed up this POS $2 pistol. Combine the two tales, and you’ve got “Jesse James” pistol”. I’d like to think most people have more sense than that.

In a bar in Organ, New Mexico [well, actually in the only bar in Organ, New Mexico] they had on proud display in a red velvet lined and glass-framed case a remarkably beat-up Colt Peacemaker revolver, along with a brass tag telling any interested observers that this historical piece was The only handgun in New Mexico not used by Pat Garret to kill Billy the Kid.

They had a pretty fair number of other interesting pieces on the wal and hanging from the ceiling of that ol' place, some shootin' irons and some not.

49 posted on 11/12/2007 1:39:19 PM PST by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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To: xsrdx
That said, I wish they'd be a little less hostile to other shooting sports, their founding membership seems to have inculcated a specific hatred of USPSA/IPSC in particular, and I'm not sure exactly where it came from because the disciplines aren't all that different.

My only complaint came when I showed up with a gunbelt at which a couple of their purists turned up their noses, until I showed them a photograph of my maternal grandfather wearing it, a relic of Wyoming's Johnson County Wars.

They were also annoyed that I was wearing dirty coveralls instead of the fancy Western duds they favored, and I apologized, having soiled the things a bit the day before when I was firing a coal-powered steam locomotive with a scoop shovel, the motor driven auger feeder being out of service for new bearings. But the overalls and Hickory cap were also authentic to the period, though I probably should have worn my derby.

Helpfully, my girlfriend at the time was a Lakota sweetie who answered every question put to her in the language her grandmother had taught her. And she outshot me in the Frontiersman black powder handgun category, though she was in a *greenhorn* class.

50 posted on 11/12/2007 1:50:12 PM PST by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
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