The last charge (Knights Templar are back...)

The Guardian (U.K.) ^ | 3-19-08 | Patrick Barkham

[Renfield]

Almost 700 years after the Pope burned their leader at the stake, the Knights Templar are back. Or are they? Patrick Barkham tries to find out why the long-vanished order of Crusaders might suddenly be advertising in the press....

~~~snip~~~

Apart from the odd misplaced apostrophe and various arcane references to "annulling the bull", the advert gravely announced that the Knights Templar would petition the Pope to "restore the Order with the duties, rights and privileges appropriate to the 21st century and beyond". It called on all Templar groups and "brothers in arms" around the world to get in touch, either via its website, www.theknightstemplar.info, or an address in west London, which could clearly become a mecca for long-lost Templars and baffled Telegraph readers alike....

[Renfield]

Any interest in the Knights Templar?

[TexasNative2000]

You might want to talk to Tom Hanks.........

[wideawake]

Anyone who claims to be a Knight Templar today is a member of a secret society and is, if Catholic, under a latae sententiae excommunication which can be rescinded only if they renounce their membership in the secret society.

[Dixie Yooper]

which could clearly become a mecca for long-lost Templars

Mecca? Jerusalem perhaps, never Mecca.

[SF Republican]

under a latae sententiae excommunication - what are the chances the Pope would rescind this?

[Dr.Deth]

Another possible worm is the reaction that the restoration of the Templars would cause among some Islamic groups who associate the Templars with the Crusades.

That's precisely why this should be seriously considered. A big f-you to the "Crusades for we, not for thee" Jihadis.

[wideawake]

what are the chances the Pope would rescind this?

Without renunciation of membership in the secret society, none. This particular excommunication is reserved to the local ordinary, usually.

[shuckmaster]

They’re putting the band back together again.

[uglybiker]

I'm still looking for proof that ANY group calling itself 'Kights Templar' (Masons included) are descended from the originals.

[SunkenCiv]

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[Lurker]

Ah yes....excommunication. Isn't that where mortal men tell God who He's allowed to talk to?

L

[wideawake]

Isn't that where mortal men tell God who He's allowed to talk to?

Your post essentially reads: "Wideawake, I have no idea what the word 'excommunication' means. Can you explain it to me?"

Well, Lurker, I'd be happy to.

Excommunication means that Church recognizes that one of its members has committed a sin of the kind that merits the sinner's exclusion from the sacraments it administers.

[Lurker]

Excommunication means that Church recognizes that one of its members has committed a sin of the kind that merits the sinner's exclusion from the sacraments it administers.

Oh gee, thanks.

So in other words as far as God is concerned, it doesn't mean squat.

Thanks for clearing that up.

L

[wideawake]

So in other words as far as God is concerned, it doesn't mean squat.

Except for the fact that He, in the person of the Holy Spirit, guides the Church and commands obedience to its precepts.

[Lurker]

Except for the fact that He, in the person of the Holy Spirit, guides the Church

The Pope is God? Who knew?

L

[wideawake]

The Pope is God? Who knew?

What your post actually says is: "Wideawake, I've read the New Testament, but I'm a little confused. Was Jesus God or was Peter God? I can't remember, can you tell me?"

Again, Lurker, I'd be happy to.

Jesus was God, and Peter was a mortal man that Jesus selected to perform certain tasks on His behalf.

[Lurker]

What your post actually says, and I quote, is this:

Except for the fact that He, in the person of the Holy Spirit, guides the Church

So your position is that Jesus is running the Catholic Church?

Do I have that about right?

L

[wideawake]

So your position is that Jesus is running the Catholic Church?

Insofar as jesus is the Son of God and the Son and Holy Spirit are one, He is guiding the Church - not administrating it.

"Running" is too vague a term since it could mean either.

[Lurker]

"Running" is too vague a term since it could mean either.

Did Jesus 'excommunicate' the Knights Templar or did the Pope do it?

L

[wideawake]

Did Jesus 'excommunicate' the Knights Templar or did the Pope do it?

The Knights Templar were not, as a body, excommunicated. Their order, as a canonical entity, was dissolved.

[Lurker]

The Knights Templar were not, as a body, excommunicated

But you said: "Anyone who claims to be a Knight Templar today is a member of a secret society and is, if Catholic, under a latae sententiae excommunication"

Talk about a distinction without a difference....

L

[wideawake]

Talk about a distinction without a difference....

The distinction is quite differentiated.

The original Knights Templar were not a secret society, but a religious order established according to the norms of canonical law.

Anyone who claims to be a Knight Templar today cannot claim membership in the original Knights Templar, since that order was dissolved as a canonical organization centuries ago.

The "Knights Templar" today are any of a number of secret societies that claim to be somehow occultly linked with that long-dissolved order. There is, of course, no actual, historical link.

Membership in a secret society incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

[Lurker]

The "Knights Templar" today are any of a number of secret societies that claim to be somehow occultly linked with that long-dissolved order.

Every one of them? You have proof of this?

Membership in a secret society incurs a latae sententiae excommunication

So if as a Catholic I had a 'secret society' called "Lurkers Secret Society" I would be automatically excommunicated?

Exactly which Pope wrote that?

L

[mnehrling]

ping

[wideawake]

Every one of them? You have proof of this?

Name one person who claims to be a Knight Templar who believes he bears no relationship whatever with the original.

So if as a Catholic I had a 'secret society' called "Lurkers Secret Society" I would be automatically excommunicated?

So if as a Catholic I had a 'secret society' called "Lurkers Secret Society" I would be automatically excommunicated? Exactly which Pope wrote that?

Such a society would have to meet the criteria defined by Pope Clement XII back in 1738 - to summarize the bare essentials: a group whose rules require one to conceal his membership in the group from all non-members including even his family and pastors, which requires a solemn oath to be taken to conceal the secrets of the society, and which undertakes corporate actions or requires rules of conduct that are concealed from outsiders.

[Lurker]

Name one person who claims to be a Knight Templar who believes he bears no relationship whatever with the original.

How interesting that you won't answer my question.

It's a strong indicator that the person doing it is full of horse manure.

L

[wideawake]

How interesting that you won't answer my question.

Every KT claimant I have ever encountered in reality or on the web claims some kind of affinity with the historical Knights templar. That's the best I can do for you. Can you give me a counterexample?

You're getting pretty frustrated with my ability to definitely answer all your other questions, I see.

[Lurker]

Such a society would have to meet the criteria defined by Pope Clement XII back in 1738 - to summarize the bare essentials: a group whose rules require one to conceal his membership in the group from all non-members including even his family and pastors, which requires a solemn oath to be taken to conceal the secrets of the society, and which undertakes corporate actions or requires rules of conduct that are concealed from outsiders.

So every single undercover CIA and FBI agent is automatically excommunicated?

L

[mnehrling]

The original Knights Templar were not a secret society, but a religious order established according to the norms of canonical law.

Thank you. It really is sad that this military order who really had an amazing and interesting history of its own is so buried in all the conspiracy theories and groups who want to claim to have some sort of connection. (IMHO, only one group has even the slightest claim to some sort of relationship, and they don't claim direct relationships, only inspiration and very lose family ties- but that isn't for here).

I believe we need to distribute copies of Foucault's Pendulum before they are allowed to continue to post.

[Lurker]

I believe we need to distribute copies of Foucault's Pendulum

Read it.

L

[mnehrling]

The Knights Templar were not, as a body, excommunicated. Their order, as a canonical entity, was dissolved.

Right again, the Pastoralis Praeeminentiae (may have the spelling wrong on that) ordered the capture of all Templars for crimes against the crown and church, but only some individual leaders were excommunicated.

[mnehrling]

Catholic definition of secret societies.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14071b.htm

[wideawake]

So every single undercover CIA and FBI agent is automatically excommunicated?

Not at all. Non-members of both organizations have investigative oversight of them, and the laws governing their activities are matters of public record, as are the oaths they take.

[rmichaelj]

widewake, you seem to have the patience of Job.

[wideawake]

You’re too kind.

[Natural Law]

Amazing isn't it. Those who claim to be the purest Biblical Literalists have given dominion over the interpretation of the word of God to past Popes and conventions of politically appointed Bishops, but deny any such authority to today's more enlightened and accountable members of the clergy. Go figure.