Posted on 05/17/2008 3:30:37 PM PDT by skimask
Thanks for posting. Big Brown...whata horse! WOW!
Afterburners.
Secretariat at the Belmont Stakes in 1973 was essentially like Tiger Woods at the Masters in 1997: totally no competition.
Big Brown’s performance today brought to mind Secretariat. Thank you for providing the video link. I watched that race on a snowy b/w 13 in. portable, and Secretariat was beautiful to watch even under those circumstances.
“Actually it is Secretariat who might not be in Big Brown’s league.”
That is really quite absurd.
Based on the racing times Big Brown would have lost the Derby and Preakness to Sham, the gifted horse that helped drive Secretariat to greatness. In any other year but 1973, Sham would have been the Derby and Preakness winners, and horse of the year, instead of a little noted footnote to the greatest throroughred horse of all ( Man O’ War partisans do have some good arguments of course ). Sham’s Derby time was no worse than the fourth best ever, and most say second only to Secretariat’s.
Big Brown is a very good horse in a very weak year for throroughbred horses. He hasn’t yet shown that he is in the same class as either Sham or Secretariat. All he needs to do is win the Belmont in 2:23.99 and break Secretariat’s 35 year old stakes, track, and world record. If Big Brown could do that, I’d then agree that he is one of the all-time greats. But let’s be realistic, if he can just win in 2:25.99 or less, and become the second horse to run the Belmont in less then 2:26, he will establish himself as one of the better triple crown winners. First he’s got to do it, and based on his Derby and Preakness times I doubt that it will happen.
It helps to actually know what you are talking about here at FR. I saw Secretariat LOSE three times. I mean I was there IN PERSON to see him lose. I was also there at Belmont to see his spectacular Belmont Stakes win. Were you even born yet?
Sham was a nice horse, but his principal claim to fame was losing to Secretariat. Without looking I cannot think of the name of any horse that ran behind Sham in a race that he won. Secretariat beat many better horses than Sham.
Horse races are just that. They are races, not time trials. The trip, surfaces, and conditions vary in ways that make time comparisons silly. Maybe we'll see if Big Brown is as awesome as he looked winning the Preakness yesterday when he races older horses later in the year. From what I have seen so far (all on TV) he might be.
ML/NJ
Excuse me? Secretariat was no more a bay than I am.
Secretariat is said by some to be the best racehorse of the 20th century, though Man O'War actually has a stronger claim. However, there were a few centuries of horse racing before either of them were born. What of Eclipse, whose races consisted of three multi-mile heats, and who was undefeated in 18 starts? He stopped racing only because no horse could be found to race against him after he continued to distance them all by 240 yards or more. He was considered the greatest race horse of the 18th century, and he ran longer, harder races without the benefits of modern shoes and farriery, modern supplements, modern surfaces.
“What of Eclipse, whose races consisted of three multi-mile heats, and who was undefeated in 18 starts?”
That’s why the horse of the year award is the “Eclipse award”.
“Were you even born yet?”
Unfortunately I was. And I was at Valley Forge with Washington, but don’t remember seeing YOU there.
So far your horse has just won easily ( and slowly ) on fast tracks, against abysmal competition. I hope he can show his supposed greatness before they finally put him out to stud.
I wonder what you think of a horse named Winsome Charm. He ran pretty fast this year; didn't win but he ran pretty fast. Does he go into your Hall of Greatness with Sham?
ML/NJ
“But my guess”
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. According to “Blood-Horse” magazine War Admiral was a much greater horse than Seabiscuit, and they settled that one the other way on the track!
ML/NJ
“how stupid your War Admiral-Seabiscuit analogy is”
If you think it’s stupid to settle sporting controversies on the field of action, you probably also think the New England Patriots had a better season than the New York Giants. I guarantee that the Patriots and Giants wouldn’t agree with that opinion.
Seabiscuit at his best beat War Admiral at his best by 4 lengths. Reportedly the match race terms were dictated by War Admiral’s owner, who tried hard to dodge the race. It’s still available on video, in case you weren’t also there in 1938.
Heartbreaking stuff with those two. For Funny Cide, they ran the hell out of him a day or so before the Belmont, killing his chances. Smarty should have won the Triple Crown. The jockey rode him on the outside almost all of the way. A smarter race by the jockey and Smarty would have won by a few lengths. Of course, Barbaro was the next Secretariat. Tragic stuff that. I've got my hopes up again. I want to see a Triple Crown winner before I die. Big Brown -- if everything goes the way it has so far -- should win the Belmont by 10-15 lengths.
Secretariat was not perfect, but his performance in the Belmont in particular makes one wonder how he ever lost a race. In fact, his run in the Preakness also showed he was able to simply run right by his opponents. Sham’s early push in the Belmont helped him run harder. I’m not surprised that Secretariat’s times were so good because of the “match race” effect. In the absence of Secretariat, Sham would’ve been an easy Triple Crown winner. The same goes for Sunday Silence and Easy Goer. Each would’ve almost certainly been a Triple Crown winner if not for the other.
We can’t be certain that Big Brown has had any competition to this point. In his last two races, he’s simply stayed with the pacesetter until the 3/4 mark and then took off. You watch the pacesetter (Gayego, for example) and how hard the horse is running. His head is pumping, while Big Brown looks fairly relaxed. When Big Brown starts pumping, he blows the other horses away with no difficulty. It’s possible he’s really just that much better than the other horses. I think Casino Drive is only being mentioned so there’s some interest in the Belmont and so it doesn’t end up being Big Brown against an empty field.
It’s certainly possible that the Belmont might be too long for him, but I’ve seen nothing in any of the races I’ve seen (Florida, Kentucky, and the Preakness) that leads me to believe he’s even gotted tired on the track. It looks like Desormeaux runs him just hard enough to win comfortably (as he’s done in ever race he’s ran). It’s tough to argue that a horse who hasn’t lost - and furthermore has won convincingly every race - isn’t potentially one of the best.
“In the absence of Secretariat, Sham would’ve been an easy Triple Crown winner. The same goes for Sunday Silence and Easy Goer. Each would’ve almost certainly been a Triple Crown winner if not for the other.”
With that comment in mind, I love this quote...
Affirmed’s trainer, Laz Barrera, once said: “Affirmed is greater than Secretariat, or any Triple Crown winner, because only Affirmed had to face Alydar.”
I know Bob Baffert (Know him?) wasn't around for Secretariat but here's what he had to say about Big Brown: "This is the best horse I've seen since I've been in the business." You, on the other hand, think he has just romped past pigs.
ML/NJ
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