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Operational evaluation of FN SOF Combat Assault Rifle (FN SCAR).
roaddog727 | today | Me

Posted on 05/21/2008 10:50:16 AM PDT by roaddog727

From time to time I write reports of interesting things I do where I work at SOCOM. One of the neat things I had the opportunity do in January/February of this year was go to Iraq (Baghdad, Falluja, and Balad) and Afghanistan (Baghram) to participate in a Knowledge Management assessment.

But that is not what I want to discuss today. Today I had the opportunity to fire the FN SOF Combat Assault Rifle (FN SCAR) {Low Rate Initial Production}.

See Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_SCAR

The models in particular were the SCAR-L (Mk-16, 10 inch, 5.56x45mm, Close Quarters Combat variant) and SCAR-H (MK17, 13 inch, 7.62x51mm, Close Quarters Combat Variant). I was shooting at 25M silhouettes, standing, unsupported.

Course of fire:

20 rounds in the SCAR-L, semi auto – all 20 rounds in the 9 ring or better.

20 rounds in the SCAR-H, semi auto – all 20 rounds in the 9 ring or better.

40 rounds in the SCAR-H, full auto – 35 rounds in the black, 5 still on the target in the white (3 high-center, 1 low left, 1 low right)

20 rounds in the SCAR-L, full auto, silenced – all 20 rounds in the 8 ring or better.

What was most pleasing was the ease of firing and ease of target engagement. Particularly appealing was that when I fired both variants on full auto, instead of the barrel going high and to the right, the rifle pushed straight back. I’ll say that again – instead of going high and right on full auto, it pushed straight back. Savvy shooters will know what that means.

The above results speak for themselves. This is a great weapon and will have great results in combat.

HoooooAH!


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: banglist; scar
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Great weapons systems. At present, the 5.56 and 7.62 variants are 88% interchangeable. the goal is for them to bee completely interchangeable (except barrel, magazine, and bolt). Ultimately the changeover to this family of weapons will save lots in $ and time.

As always,

Have at it.

1 posted on 05/21/2008 10:50:16 AM PDT by roaddog727
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To: roaddog727; neverdem; Joe Brower

Any news or feedback on the SF’s 6.8Rem caliber project?


2 posted on 05/21/2008 10:53:32 AM PDT by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: roaddog727

Here is a working link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_SCAR

It seems like a great weapon and they all have advantages and disadvantages, but in the TO, if given a choice I would choose the XM8.


3 posted on 05/21/2008 11:00:33 AM PDT by WildcatClan (Don't blame me...............I supported Duncan Hunter.)
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To: Travis McGee

nothing


4 posted on 05/21/2008 11:04:52 AM PDT by neverdem (I'm praying for a Divine Intervention.)
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To: Travis McGee

Not to my knowledge, but I have no visibility on that program, sorry.


5 posted on 05/21/2008 11:05:48 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: WildcatClan

“...if given a choice I would choose the XM8.”

I would encourage you to fire the SCAR before you make that eval.


6 posted on 05/21/2008 11:07:15 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: roaddog727

FN had better deliver on making the SCAR available to civilians.


7 posted on 05/21/2008 11:21:46 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: roaddog727

I would love to see the US Military return to the 7.62. I never thought the .22 was a good military cartridge.


8 posted on 05/21/2008 11:22:27 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: The KG9 Kid

It won’t be cheap.......


9 posted on 05/21/2008 11:26:27 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: roaddog727

Another good gun. But……..

We need a design challenge at DARPA. All these weapons are old potatoes re-warmed. AR18 repackaged as “XM8.” This is essentially an older design too........ There hasn’t been anything new that really brought anything new in capabilities or performance in a long time.

There were some inspiring ideas such as caseless ammunition on the G11 concept for example. What we need is a revolutionary break through, not some evolutionary development that brings modest performance gains over what we have now. -IMHO


10 posted on 05/21/2008 11:27:57 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: mbynack

It’s happening. A bit at a time, but happening.

Hit something (or some one) with the 7.62, it goes down and, (more importantly) STAYS down.


11 posted on 05/21/2008 11:28:21 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: Red6

“What we need is a revolutionary break through, not some evolutionary development that brings modest performance gains over what we have now. -IMHO”

Agreed.

What we need is a man-portable (and useable), high energy pulse laser. No recoil, no windage. Point, click, ZZZzzzphths, clunk.


12 posted on 05/21/2008 11:32:03 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: roaddog727
In reality however, we have been using caseless ammo on tanks since 1982, and the G11 successfully experimented with it years ago. Imagine 33% less weight and volume for the same amount of ammo.

There are many ideas that are within the realm of feasibility we should explore. Things where like with the M16 43 years ago, or the M1 Garand when fielded, give us a significant performance advantage over other standard issued weapons.

Everything we are seeing proposed is more or less a reincarnation of some older concept. An improved M16. A new version of an AR18/180 or a new FN.......... The performance gains on these weapons is marginal over what we already have. While an AR18 surely is a slightly better design than the M16, it's not making me go in heat either.

13 posted on 05/21/2008 11:49:28 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: roaddog727
Hit something (or some one) with the 7.62, it goes down and, (more importantly) STAYS down.

I agree. The people who were advocating the 5.56 always talked about the potential for wounding and how it would take two more men out of the battle to carry the wounded away from the front lines. In my experience in the desert, the guy that was wounded continued fighting.

In close quarters battle you might hit the guy several times with a burst and stop the fight, but at ranges out around 300-400 meters using iron sights you were lucky to hit him once. If he found out about it he would get really angry.

I understand that they're starting to see a lot more guys wearing body armor, too. I don't know that the 5.56 can penetrate body armor at 300 meters when fired out of the M-4.

14 posted on 05/21/2008 11:49:51 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: roaddog727
When is LUT or IOTE scheduled? Very interested in reception from SOF troopers when evaluated back to back with M4 SOPMOD/MWS, both in formal test and once fielding is underway.

If improvement over current M16 series is possible, this represents most likely approach given comprehensive approach to developing the SCAR requirement.

Curious to watch Army/USMC reception to SCAR fielding within SOCOM...

556/762 platform commonality is cool, what will be TELLING is how much 762 really gets used....

15 posted on 05/21/2008 11:50:31 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: xsrdx

Put it thisa way:

“The field” is clammoring for a return to the 7.62x51. Also of note, in the future, there will also be a 7.62x39 variant fielded for the SCAR.


16 posted on 05/21/2008 12:03:11 PM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: Travis McGee

“Any news or feedback on the SF’s 6.8Rem caliber project?”

I’d advise taking a look at the 6.5 Grendel before getting too worked up about the 6.8. It has far better ballistics, with similar knockdown power. The .308 (7.62 NATO) is too much recoil for an assault rifle.

www.65grendel.com

It’s also being evaluated by SOCOM.


17 posted on 05/21/2008 12:20:35 PM PDT by PreciousLiberty
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To: roaddog727
Gun Porn needs pictures:


The 3rd Generation FN SCAR-L, or Mk 16 Mod 0.


The 3rd Generation FN SCAR-H, or MK 17 MOD 0.
18 posted on 05/21/2008 12:26:03 PM PDT by SaltyJoe (Lenin legalized abortion. Afterward, every life was fair game for Death.)
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To: mbynack

A 22 will kill perfectly fine if placed right. A 50 cal won’t kill if it misses.

Against human targets, 556 is bad news. I’m talking from experience. The bullet is unstable and after it hits begins to rotate after 7cm of penetration. At close range the slug virtually explodes inside a person with only the penetrator exiting. It can’t deal with the forces acting on it. At over 50 meters you get two exist wounds usually because as the slug rotates it separates into the penetrator and lead tail. A 308 on the other hand punches nice clean holes and doesn’t rotate until after 18cm. 556 is a nice all purpose round which because of its high velocity and instability creates a lot more damage on a human that the layperson thinks.

If you doubt me. Try this. Take some coffee cans and set them up and shoot at them with 556; small entrance and exit holes. Now take some more large coffee cans and fill them with water, shoot again. You’ll see a small entrance hole and the entire rear of the can is blown open. That’s because MOST the damage from a bullet like 556 is from its shock wave and instability, not the physical hole it punches!

You address some other myths. A very fast and flat shooting round 556 really needs no adjustment for distance and in 99% of the time windage. People shoot bullseye (with fixed iron sights 40/40) on the M16 qual range all the time, and that’s knocking over a smaller that life sized Ivan at 300 meters. A smaller round like 556 allows for less recoil, makes it less intimidating for the person learning, and generally is lighter and smaller. 556 is a good round against a “human” and for general purpose use in the military.

We’re not killing Kodiak bear. We’re shooting at humans. We’re not setting world records for distance; we’re shooting at ranges of less than 100 meters in most cases. Weight, volume, and ease of use (recoil etc) are will weigh in as well…………. 556 isn’t for everything, but as an all purpose round it does very well, and in fact all others have gone over to the concept of small high velocity rounds, even the Russians who adopted their 5.45 and FN which is experimenting with a 4.7mm.


19 posted on 05/21/2008 12:31:45 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: roaddog727
“The field” is clammoring for a return to the 7.62x51. Also of note, in the future, there will also be a 7.62x39 variant fielded for the SCAR.

Well, maybe in SOCOM-ville, but there is no validated requirement for a general issue 762 rifle to replace the M16/M4 from CENTCOM or any other combatant command.

Again, what will be interesting with SCAR is how much draw 762 really has amongst the rank and file when they have both options - and the M4 - available.

20 posted on 05/21/2008 12:31:46 PM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: PreciousLiberty
6.5G AWS
21 posted on 05/21/2008 12:37:47 PM PDT by SaltyJoe (Lenin legalized abortion. Afterward, every life was fair game for Death.)
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To: mbynack
You can always tell those who hunt, and only plink at a range with their $5,000 conversation piece rifle.

If you shoot a moose, bear, buck, I really don't care what; and place a bad shot, a 338 won't take him down. On the other hand, a 270 will drop a black bear perfectly fine if you hit him right. With “hand guns” and in the low velocity ranges you have an excellent point. The 45 has a lot more target effect than say a 9mm, but in the realm of high velocity, things change. -IMHO

22 posted on 05/21/2008 12:42:39 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: roaddog727

Oh man, I want a job at USSOCOM.


23 posted on 05/21/2008 12:53:14 PM PDT by wastedyears (Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. - Optimus Prime)
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To: roaddog727

Why wouldn’t the barrel, mag and bolt be interchangeable? If you’re firing a larger round, wouldn’t you need a larger bore barrel?


24 posted on 05/21/2008 12:55:31 PM PDT by wastedyears (Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. - Optimus Prime)
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To: mbynack
The people who were advocating the 5.56 always talked about the potential for wounding and how it would take two more men out of the battle to carry the wounded away from the front lines. In my experience in the desert, the guy that was wounded continued fighting.

This is only relevant in warfare against First World countries. Against our likely enemies, they are more likely to just leave their wounded for US to care for, producing stress on OUR logistics and medical facilities

25 posted on 05/21/2008 12:56:31 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell)
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To: wastedyears
Why wouldn’t the barrel, mag and bolt be interchangeable? If you’re firing a larger round, wouldn’t you need a larger bore barrel?

What they're saying is that if you want to switch from 5.56 to 7.62, you swap the barrel, mag, and bolt for the 7.62 versions, and leave the frame, trigger, etc alone.

26 posted on 05/21/2008 1:01:23 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell)
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To: PapaBear3625

Gotcha


27 posted on 05/21/2008 1:08:02 PM PDT by wastedyears (Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. - Optimus Prime)
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To: Red6
If you shoot a moose, bear, buck, I really don't care what; and place a bad shot, a 338 won't take him down. On the other hand, a 270 will drop a black bear perfectly fine if you hit him right.

A firefight is a lot different from hunting elk. Proper shot placement isn't always an option in a firefight at night at 300 meters with iron sights. Especially when the target is hiding behind rocks and shooting back. In that case I want the biggest, badest bullet traveling at the highest velocity to create a huge wound cavity and immediate incapacitation. When I hit someone I want them to stop shooting at me immediately, not ten minutes from now.

28 posted on 05/21/2008 1:14:58 PM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: roaddog727
Bookmark
29 posted on 05/21/2008 1:32:46 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: The KG9 Kid
FN had better deliver on making the SCAR available to civilians.

They are working it. I heard a podcast the other day where FN's marketing director was interviewed. He really understood the demand for 'black rifles' in the civilian market and was committed to bringing it to us. Still ain't all that cheap though.
30 posted on 05/21/2008 2:10:22 PM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: PreciousLiberty

I agree, both 6.5 and 6.8 rounds have pros and cons but both are superior to 5.56, and fit in the 5.56 envelope.


31 posted on 05/21/2008 2:32:08 PM PDT by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: mbynack
762 isn't going to “knock” someone over. That's a myth too. 762 (as far as potential) is better at extended ranges and it has more punch on a building, bunker, forested areas, even penetrating thin armor of vehicles like a BTR70 (with standard M80 ball). The problem is that a weapon chambered in 308 will weigh and recoil more, with target effect on a human not being any greater (in net often less).

You can carry 210 rounds 223 in the weight and volume of 120 rounds of 308. The weapon weighs less (by design you can make them lighter); you basically don’t need to compensate for range from 0-300 meters because the deviation from line of sight is 2 inches up and down. Ammo is cheap; training new people is easy on a weapon that isn’t that intimidating. Recoil is low and recovery times fast, and depending on design of the weapon easy to manage on auto. All this is packed into a weapon that essentially does more damage on a human than a much more stable and slower 762x51 round.

**** “In that case I want the biggest, badest bullet traveling at the highest velocity to create a huge wound cavity and immediate incapacitation.”

223 isn’t some magical caliber, nor is it perfect for everything, but it’s a caliber that in most situations offers good all around performance. The M4 “CAN” be operated from a vehicle. 15 minutes later you “CAN” be clearing rooms, and tomorrow you might be on a roof top where you “CAN” take a 200 yard shot. It’s a weapon you “CAN” carry for long times in hill country or jungles. How good would an MP5 work at 200 meters? How good does the M107 work at CQB? How nice and light is an M14 carrying it? 223 is simply a good standard caliber that works well in most scenarios, and you can’t pick and choose what you have that second like in a computer game switching between the nine different weapons one carries there. Those stating the obvious that caliber “X” can carry further or punch through more or whatever else, are playing the game of narrowing in the scope to a small band of variables they deem important that second to make their claim. The problem is that we’re talking about an “all purpose” caliber with mutually exclusive variables at work.

32 posted on 05/21/2008 2:53:24 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: xsrdx

Yes,
I am speaking from the perspective of “Happy-COM”

And also correct, (for now) there is no “Validated requirement” in CENTCOM, “Sad-COM” for this weapon. However, once the word gets out and folks start firing it and engaging live targets, that may well change.


33 posted on 05/21/2008 3:48:52 PM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: Red6
“762 isn't going to “knock” someone over. That's a myth too.”

True. IF you're using Ball Ammo. We're dinking around with stuff that's truly “lethal”. To the effect that if you hit the guy in the supper arm, no more arm and part of the shoulder to boot.

That's all I'll say, except that it has undergone JAG review and survived.

34 posted on 05/21/2008 3:54:27 PM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: SaltyJoe
Thanks for the gun porn.....:-)

please take note of each of the muzzles:

the 7.62 variant is longer than the 5.56 variant. This is to prevent inadvertent “Sound suppressor” installation over the wron caliber barrel. Although you COULD screw the 7.62 suppressor over the 5.56 muzzle. But that's OK - it won't blow up in your face.

also, if you look just above the serration to the rear of the flash suppressor you'll see threading. That's where the “Noise suppressor” screw's onto the muzzle. Very sweet. You DON'T have to remove the existing flash suppressor.

35 posted on 05/21/2008 4:00:39 PM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: roaddog727
"..., instead of the barrel going high and to the right, the rifle pushed straight back."

MMmmmm...thats good engineering...:)
Felt recoil? Single handed operation? Left shoulder/right shoulder ease of use?

Thanks.
36 posted on 05/21/2008 6:10:32 PM PDT by Tainan (Talk is cheap. Silence is golden. All I got is brass...lotsa brass.)
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To: roaddog727

We don’t need a technology driver like the OICW, and we also shouldn’t settle for some re-warmed old potatoes in a new package. What we need at this point is something feasible that brings a real advantage to the table, and nothing so far proposed fits that description.

Think: first mini-ball, semi auto, first breech loader........

What we need is something that “significantly” enhances either the capabilities or performance of the weapon. The goal isn’t to make a fashion statement, change things just for the sake of changing, or to make some guys feel special by adopting a toy for them. We don’t need any more Army black-beret nonsense, and essentially that’s what a lot of this is.


37 posted on 05/21/2008 6:12:36 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Tainan

Recoil was insignificant on the SCAR-L and light on the SCAR-H. I was waering a polo shirt and have only minor stippling on my shoulder. That’s after 40 rounds of the 5.56 and 60 rounds of 7.62. With a little padding, I could fire the 7.62 all day.


38 posted on 05/21/2008 6:21:28 PM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: Red6

“We don’t need any more Army black-beret nonsense, and essentially that’s what a lot of this is.”

Until you fire the weapon, you have nothing further to add, other than uninformed opinion.


39 posted on 05/21/2008 6:25:19 PM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: roaddog727

Personally, I’d like to see a DOD wide transition to the piston action 6.8 SPC M-4.


40 posted on 05/21/2008 7:06:21 PM PDT by Lancer_N3502A
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To: roaddog727
You're probably right.

This newly designed action from the late 50s, a weapon made of all new materials, in all new calibers like 308 and 223, will offer earth shattering new performance in ballistics's while vastly reducing weight over present M4s. Feel better?

41 posted on 05/21/2008 8:22:44 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and take it.)
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To: Red6

Different action, different ammo.

Again, until you fire it and have had the engineers discuss it with you, all you have is uninformed opinion.


42 posted on 05/22/2008 2:10:38 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: wastedyears

IT is a rather “interesting”, “Fun” place...... :-)


43 posted on 05/22/2008 4:39:46 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BS does not get bridges built - the funk you see is the funk you do)
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To: Red6
I'm not basing my analysis on rumors on the Internet. I'm basing it on 22 years on active duty and two combat tours. I have to disagree with your assessment of "smaller and lighter is better". If that were true the Marines and special forces wouldn't be pulling surplus M-14s back into service and the Army wouldn't be looking at the 6.8.
44 posted on 05/22/2008 4:48:37 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: mbynack; Red6
Proper shot placement isn't always an option in a firefight at night at 300 meters with iron sights.

Your argument strongly favors 556. The entire point of small caliber assault rifles is increased probability of hit. You are far more likely to score a COM hit under pressure with a light recoiling, flat shooting rifle.

And just for the record, there are almost no riflemen left in OIF/OEF shooting iron sights. Optics are everywhere, and intended to address precisely the issue you raise - increased hit probability under suboptimal conditions.

45 posted on 05/22/2008 6:40:09 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: mbynack
If that were true the Marines and special forces wouldn't be pulling surplus M-14s back into service and the Army wouldn't be looking at the 6.8.

The Army isn't "looking" at 6.8 with any seriousness, and those M14's have largely been replaced by 762 and 556mm AR variant heavy barreled "designated marksmen" rifles.

762 NATO has a place, but not as a general issue rifle caliber.

There is no warfighter requirement for a larger caliber?? And believe me, they aren't shy about asking for more and better stuff.

If 556 wasn't working, we'd have already fielded AR10's army wide three years ago.

46 posted on 05/22/2008 6:57:49 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: roaddog727; Red6
Again, until you fire it and have had the engineers discuss it with you, all you have is uninformed opinion.

As I stated before, we'll know soon enough. The M16 series is a spectacularly successful weapons system, esp. in current SOPMOD/MWS configuration and USMC M16A4. SCAR is an incremental improvement, hardly a death ray.

Having them both in widespread combat use will be interesting - were it really a priority it would have been fielded already.

Time will tell if the operators in SOCOM are truly ready to abandon their AR pattern long guns.

47 posted on 05/22/2008 7:17:58 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: mbynack; Red6
I have to disagree with your assessment of "smaller and lighter is better".

It's hardly Red6's "assessment" - no major Army WORLDWIDE still uses a battle rifle caliber for general issue.

It's not a conspiracy to make war less dangerous, but recognition of the increased effectiveness of "small and lighter."

48 posted on 05/22/2008 7:23:29 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: xsrdx
If 556 wasn't working, we'd have already fielded AR10's army wide three years ago. Trying to get the army to change weapons is almost impossible. The loggies have as much say as the front line commanders and they prefer to keep the status quo.

My experience is based on Desert Storm and I haven't really talked that much to guys over there now. I did see a recent photo taken in Iraq with a Marine with an M-14, so at least some are still using them.

All I can tell you is that based on my experience, I would prefer to carry a larger caliber than the 5.56. We didn't have to carry them for extended periods, so the weight of the ammo and the rifle didn't really make a lot of difference. I'm used to firing 12 guage shotguns and a 30-06, so the recoil on the 7.62 didn't bother me. Also, there's a lot of new technology on recoil reduction that could be applied to a new combat rifle.

49 posted on 05/22/2008 7:24:25 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: mbynack
Trying to get the army to change weapons is almost impossible.

It would happen overnight if combatant commanders demanded it. In peacetime, you have an argument, but if there was a legitimate, coordinated consensus for a "better" rifle from the field, the Army and Congress would be tripping over each other to get it done.

The Marine Corps just recently approved adoption of the M16A4 as standard issue, following a full analysis of requirements and competitive evaluation. Had they wanted an AR10 or SCAR, they could have bought it.

Your preference for a larger caliber is fine, but what works for you as an individual has little to do with what works as a general issue weapon for a large military force.

Even in the hands of trained riflemen, smaller calibers achieve better hits faster than larger calibers.

That's what wins gunfights, assuming the small caliber has adequate terminal performance.

Trading slightly better terminal performance for slower and less accurate has not been the preferred approach since the Sturmgewehr hit the battlefield.

50 posted on 05/22/2008 7:43:40 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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