Skip to comments.Any veterinarian Freepers ? Need help / advice ! ( Vanity )
Posted on 05/30/2008 6:20:50 PM PDT by sushiman
I live in the boondocks of Kumamoto with my Japanese wife and our two Boston Terriers Toto and Momo . There is only one vet in this area and we have used him since the dogs were born and they have always had regular check ups , shots , etc...
A couple of weeks ago , Toto ( now 11 ) and I were outside in the garden . In order to scare away some pesty crows that live in back of our house , I shot a cap gun . As soon as I did , Toto fell over on his side , wet all over himself , and didn't move . I massaged his chest , and after about a minute he recovered . I thought he had collapsed from shock from the noise ( he hates thunder , fireworks ...) , but my wife took him to the vet the next day . From what I gather he didn't give Toto an ultrasound or do any other involved examination . After hearing the info we gave him about the incident , and listening to Toto's heart , he prescribed a drug we are to give Toto daily . I'm not sure exactly what it does , but my wife appears to trust the vet and thinks " it can't be helped " . I am not sure I trust the vet . I can get more info from my wife when she gets home .
Anyway , Toto has had two more incidents since last Sunday . One time he was running around the garden for a few minutes and collapsed . Yesterday , he dropped as soon as I let him out . Both times he recovered after about a minute .
I know he is old , but I want to do right by my buddie and do everything I can for him . I am going to suggest that my wife take him to another vet about an hour's drive from here . I know she is going to say it's a waste of time ( she really does trust our vet ) , but I'll give it a shot .
In the meantime , I'd like to hear from any vets out there in Freeperland who have an opinion or any advice , etc...
By the way , he has no cough , but does pant a little more than he used to . Otherwise , fit as a fiddle as far as I can tell . Super appetite !
Thanks in advance !
I am not a Veterinarian, just a fellow animal lover- it might help if you post what your Vet actually said was wrong with your dog and the name of the medication you are to give him.
My thoughts are with you and your wife that things go well for your dog; they are a special part of our lives and I know how I feel when something is wrong with one of them.
I’m afraid I can’t offer any ideas or solutions, but I can and do wish the best of luck to both you and Toto. Good luck.
I’m NOT a vet, but it could be a problem with the “inner” ear.
The Inner ear can affect balance: He may be getting dizzy.
The sound of the cap gun may have set it off.
As you know dogs hearing is very sensitive.
That’s my unprofessional opinion.
I had a dog that acted in a similar way. After many different diagnosis it was finally diagnosed with having mini epileptic seizures.
Thank you all for the replies .
When he falls over , his hody becomes a bit rigid , and he looks almost dead . After a minute , he snaps out of it .
All the medical jargon in Japanese I don’t always understand , hence my lack of description . The jist was he has a bad ticker and there isn’t much the vet can do for him . I just can’t accept that , since he didn’t give him a thorough examination IMO .
I love this dog almost as much as my wife !
My cousin once had a German Shepard that would collapse if you scared him. Later diagnosed with epilepsy more common in older dogs. Back in the day, nothing could be done, you just waited a few and he would get up and be back to normal.
Any chance of your dog getting chocolate ?
Ahhh, hope you find the cause and that your little buddie can be treated. Our Lab began to pant as he got older. Dr. Said it was becuase the air flow is more restricted at that age. :( Still miss him so much after all these years. Good luck.
I found this info that might help:
I completely understand about that - if my husband were to tell me I would have to choose between him - or our pets - I'm afraid he would be packing his bags.
Maybe the vet heard something in Toto's heartbeat when he listened with a stethoscope?
Never give a dog chocolate or raisins! Either one of them can kill a dog, they affect their nervous system. As few as 6 or 7 raisins can kill a dog.
I knew chocolate was bad, but I have never heard about raisins. Thanks for the information - would the same go for grapes?
” Maybe the vet heard something in Toto’s heartbeat when he listened with a stethoscope? “
Yes , I believe he did .
A couple years ago, the dog I grew up with started to tense up and fall over whenever she got excited. That was the beginning of the end. Ended up being that she was having the dog equivalent of a stroke, though the vet said dogs can’t have strokes in the sense tha a person does. Eventually, she lost her sight and sense of balance (all in the same day following one of these attacks) and the vet told my parents that the best thing to do was to put her down. Angel was a nearly 15 year old shepherd/basset mix, though. Now I am no vet, but consider the dog’s age and understand that once they start down hill they go down pretty fast.
I’m sorry for the struggle, bro. Hope all becomes well.
” Any chance of your dog getting chocolate ? “
No . I have never given any of my dogs chocolate . Toto loves cabbage ! And the occasional lick of beer ! This dog WOULD eat anything , though .
One of our bulldogs had similar symptoms many years ago, but much more severe. He was having seizures, believed to have been brought on by a tic bite. I believe the treatment was steroids, but can’t be sure.
My dear little dachsund who passed a year ago April, she was 14, had seizures since she was two years old. Her symptoms at first were the rigid body and she would hold her legs stiff, this would last for maybe five minutes, then she would vomit after the seizure and was totally normal. She never fell over, but she would shiver and stare during the seizure. She must have known when a seizure was coming on, as she would try to get to me. My vet said that startling noises, etc. cause dogs to seizure. After several seizures on several fourth of Julys, I made sure she was in the house and not exposed to the sounds. My other dachsund however, did exactly what your dog is now doing. She would be fine and suddenly fall over and lay panting, then get up and she would be okay. She also had a bad heart but after extensive testing during this time, the vets did not think it was her heart causing this, but something more and probably neurological, although they could not pinpoint the cause. Unfortunately, after several weeks, we did need to put the little angel to sleep. I hope this is not the case with your little guy and prayers to you all.
I’ll say a prayer for Toto.
I used a vet site for a problem I recently had with my cat and I believe they take dogs as well. I found the site using ask.com and inputting online vets. I wish I could remember the name. You only pay if you’re happy with the advice, and even then it’s only 9 to14 bucks.
I highly recommend them as the service was very quick and very thorough and on point. They did ask me additional questions before diagnosing. Good luck.
Our other Boston ( we had three : the mother and two sons ) died a year ago from lymphoma , and his symptoms were very similar to what you described happening to your dog .
I know he is old , 11 and a half , and realize it’s all downhill from here on out ( heck , same with me ! ) , but just wanted to give him every chance , even if that means he can live only another year or so . I have had lots of dogs during my lifetime , but this guy is my favorite . My best friend - seriously .
You really don't have to explain anything. I still miss Dempsey, my big Boxer, the way "Uncle Charlie" missed Teddy. [Sing for us Teddy!]
My wife's friend growing up was a Boston Terrier named Buttons.
I hope you get answers about your Mister Toto!
Haven’t read through the replies yet, but what you described sounds like seizures.
I’m not a vet, but a very experienced caretaker of ancient cats with multiple medical problems under the care of various veterinary ‘ologists. This does NOT sound like a heart problem. Any heart problem severe enough to cause sudden and total collapse and loss of consciousness, would not be followed by the animal being back to its usual perky self a minute later. As other posters have noted, this sounds like epilepsy. If it is epilepsy or any sort of seizure disorder, phenobarbitol is the usual first-try medication. I had a cat with a strange seizure disorder in old age — basically very frequent collapse with twitching for a few seconds, but no loss of consciousness and always fine after a few seconds. A tiny dose of phenobarbitol solved the problem and kept kitty seizure free for the last 4 of his 21 years.
This doesn’t mean that your dog doesn’t ALSO have a heart condition, and it’s possible the vet has prescribed an appropriate medication for whatever heart condition he detected. But no heart medication would be expected to stop seizures. I wouldn’t have a whole lot of faith in a vet who doesn’t recognize what you described as some type of seizure.
Ping! FReeper needing veterinary advice for a dog in Japan.
They had him on one medication, but the doctor wasn't happy with how it was working. In the meantime, the cat began to have episodes where he passes out. He's out for 5-10 minutes at the most, but then when he comes out of it, he's his old self. These episodes seem to be preceded by coughing, as if the cat is trying to hack up a hairball. He's on a different medication, but has still experienced at least one or two of the passing-out episodes. The vet says it's obvious that his passing out is related to his heart problem, but they still haven't managed to find the right dosage to alleviate the problem, or regulate his heart rate.
Your dog could have a heart problem or may have developed something that would bring on a seizure or fainting. I'm surprised your vet didn't do any extensive tests on your dog, as my son's vet had the cat go through a battery of tests, x-rays, scans, etc. But then again, all vets are different in how they approach treatment.
Sending prayers that all works out!
Thank you ( and the rest of you as well ) for the reply .
The weird thing is , this NEVER happened UNTIL the day I shot the cap gun . As soon as I fired that shot he immediately went down .
If he has heart trouble (and I don't see that it has been established here that he does) There is plenty that you can do for him.
99% of heart trouble is bacterial infection, and inflammation. Fish oil (8 - 12 capsules per day) will quickly reduce the inflammation, and the bacteria can be effectively treated with a product from Premier Biogenics called "Heart Nano Detox." It's primary ingredient is Allicin which is the main component in garlic. It has a strong taste and odor, so it would be necessary to give it to him through a tube and funnel. It works well for humans, so I am sure that it would work for a dog.
Of course, if that isn't his problem, then it may not help at all. The seizure sounds more likely to me. Seizures can come from all kinds of different problems.
For your future reference, it’s “vetvetdoug”, and I pinged him. “Endeavor” is also a vet but hasn’t posted in almost 3 years so I don’t think she’s around anymore.
Sorry to hear about your buddy. It might not pertain here but I’ve started my dogs on a raw diet 4 months ago and they’re thriving on it.My chihuahua had hot spots near his tail,hair missing, the whole nine yards. After one week on the raw diet they were completly gone! Raw meat, chicken,beef,fish and organ meat including bones ,just don’t cook the bones. Dogs are not meant to eat cereal ,they’re carnivores. Also doing research on over vaccination. You don’t get vaccinated every year why should your dogs. There are studies that say the one year rabies vaccine is good for 7 years, maybe longer.
The Japanese name of the drug is called LERITE , otherwise known as Enalapril maleate .
Have you considered that the cap gun incident may not have been the first time? The reason I ask is I had a dog who had seizures, and I still remember the first one and assumed it was the first. It may or may not have been, it was just the first one I saw.
Have you had any times when there was urine on the floor and just assumed one of the dogs had an “accident”? It might have been the remnants of a seizure. Just food for thought.
One other note: My dog did NOT have epilepsy. The vets never did figure out what caused the seizures. I know this doesn’t sound very helpful, but I guess what I am trying to say is that if epilepsy is ruled out, it does not mean what is occurring are not seizures. I hope you are able to get to the bottom of this, and definitely take your dog to the other vet an hour away. Your wife couldn’t really get THAT mad at you for that, even if you have to ask for forgiveness after the fact rather than permission!
My first dog was a Boston Terrier named Tappy. My last two were dachshunds, Schnitzel and Weinie.
Maybe you've heard of the sleep disorder, narcolepsy? There's a famous video of a poodle with narcolepsy. You can watch it and see if it's similar to your dog.
Stanford Researchers Nab Gene For Narcolepsy in Dogs
The most dramatic symptom, however, is sudden episodes of muscle weakness known as cataplexy. The knees may buckle, the neck muscles may go slack, and in extreme cases the person may collapse to the floor completely paralyzed. Loss of muscle tone can last from a few seconds to several minutes. These abrupt attacks can occur at any time but are often triggered by strong emotions such as anger, joy or surprise. It's common for narcoleptics to have such an attack while laughing.
Sporadic cases of narcolepsy in dogs is due to hypocretin peptide deficiency while the familial form is due to mutations in one of the two hypocretin receptor genes (hcrtr2). Various dogs are shown here in a clip narrated by Dr. Mignot.
Seizures, Narcolepsy and REM
Narcolepsy is a disorder characterized by cataplexy, excessive sleepiness, and an abnormality in the phase of sleep called rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. In dogs, the most obvious sign is recurring cataleptic attacks. During a cataplectic attack, the dog suddenly collapses with paralysis of all muscles except for muscles that move the eyes and muscles responsible for breathing. The attacks are often provoked by excitement, such as feeding or play. They usually last only a few seconds, although severe episodes can last for several minutes.
During a cataplectic attack, the dog is usually conscious but unable to move. During a cataplectic attack the dog may enter REM sleep. Calling to the dog or touching the dog may terminate an attack.
I hope this helps you to solve your problem or rule it out. Good luck.
That is odd.
Enalapril is for heart failure, and sometimes prescribed for kidney failure as well.
If you try phenobarbitol, try a VERY small dose at first. My cat ended up perfectly well controlled on a tiny fraction (1/14th) of what the vet originally prescribed, and the vet had said the prescribed amount was a small dose (and per other vets, it was). Phenobarbitol needs an adjustment period, and tends to cause lethargy until the animal/person has adjusted to it, so even if a larger dose is ultimately needed, it’s better to build up to it gradually. That also helps find out what the minimum effective dose is. It’s doesn’t have any serious side effects that I know of, at least in moderate doses, so you may want to ask your vet (or a vet) about trying it. If the seizure-like episodes stop with the phenobarbitol, and return when it’s discontinued, you’ve got your diagnosis.
I have a dog who has seizures - they are much like what you describe. Noise is major trigger for her. In fact, thunderstorms are the worst. I give her Phenobarb once daily and more when there are storms.
Toto was ok with thunderstorms when he shared space with his brother Max . Max died last March , and ever since he goes nutso when we get a thunderstorm or when the local kids set off fireworks .
Also known as Vasotec, an ACE inhibitor, used in humans to treat hypertension, congestive heart failure, and cardiomyopathy.
I suspect your dog has a weak heart....excitement is causing his heart to beat fast...too fast to effectively pump blood in its weakened state. His blood pressure plummets, he becomes unconsious and shows seizure type activity caused by a sudden lack of bllod to hte brain. Once laying down, effective blood flow is restored to the brain and he waked up after a couple of minutes, initially a bit wobbly but then seemingly as normal as he gets.
No...not a vet...a paramedic :)
Raisins or grapes, either one is deadly. So are onions and chocolate. Potatoes and garlic are also not good for dogs. A small amount like licking a plate is ok, but not any sizable amounts.
Your description sounds like epilepsy. My former dog had grand mal seizures. We had to give him phenobarbital and another drug which aided in the absorption of the phenobarb. He was a lot slower, but he lived another 5-6 years after his first seizure.
When your dog falls over, does his body become stiff with an arched back? Do his legs flail like he is running? Does he urinate?
My dog’s seizures came on suddenly when he was 7 or 8 years old. There was no prior indication of any medical situation. One the vet had his medication balanced, he would only have one or two seizures a year.
There is nothing wrong in seeking a second opinion from another vet. Sometimes another doctor will see something the first missed. If nothing else, the other vet can confirm the diagnosis.
” When your dog falls over, does his body become stiff with an arched back? Do his legs flail like he is running? Does he urinate? “
Yes , somewhat stiff , but no arched back . He urinated the time I set off the cap gun , but not the following two times .
I had a beagle once that looked healthy as could be but would have a seizure if she ran for a few minutes. Vet wanted to put her on medication. I thought about it for a couple of days and realized that some of my other beagles were having other problems so I changed to a different brand of dog food. Problem solved.
Now, this doesn't mean you should change to a high protein dog food. That can cause kidney problems from what I understand. Try a good name brand dry dog food.