Posted on 07/27/2008 6:54:27 AM PDT by Amelia
It's an AP article so I can't excerpt, just summarize.
Sweden generally has a system of government schools with a national curriculum, but for the past 16 years has also allowed "independent" private schools, which are government funded, cannot charge tuition, but can choose their own teaching methods.
Some comparison to vouchers in our country, discussion of methods schools use to attract students, and some of the differences between private and public schools there.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
I sense this is an attempt by native Swedes to create a politically-correct escape route to get their children away from the growing Muslim population in that country, particularly in some urban areas.
- John
The elementary schools (grades 1-8) are beyond appalling, both public and private. They lack formal curriculum and the students do not receive grades. As a consequence the math and reading skills are at least 2 to 3 grades below those of comparative students in the U.S. This is my own personal observation having a son in Swedish schools and nieces and nephews in public schools in the U.S.
Are the private schools required to follow the national curriculum, or are they allowed to choose their own?
Also, what do the private schools cut to reduce expenses and make a profit?
That's a possibility.
I thought the article had some interesting points, but on a number of issues I'd have liked to have seen more details....
ping
bookarmk
Very good!
So, on the whole, Swedish education is dumbing down Swedes MORE than the government indoctrination schools of the US?
From this link (and also results of the PIRLS and PISA tests) it appears that Swedish students perform better than students in the United States on international comparisons, although in some areas the differences are not significant.
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Since the private schools in Sweden are also government funded, at the same rate as public schools, having school choice there does not reduce education taxes.
Would such a system be acceptable in the U.S. since it does offer educational choices, or would it not be because the government continues to be involved in funding education?
How is it different from our current system of charter schools?
I'm interested in hearing some thoughts....
That is my biggest concern, and as you know I am not one of those vehemently opposed to our current system. It the government is going to "fund" it, the government is eventually going to seek total control of it.
How is it different from our current system of charter schools?
Probably not much different, except is the instances where those seeking to start up the charters have to come up with the funds to begin the schools before they can get any of the state funding.
I understand that the money follows the student so that they are free to choose their school, but what kind of schools may they choose? If my child wanted to attend a school wrapped around music, to the detriment of other subjects, could she do that? Do they fund Christian, Catholic, Buddist, or Muslim schools? For a school to receive government funds does it have to be certified by the Swedish government in some way? Do schools have to keep scores at a certain level to maintain this certification?
So many questions for this issue. It ***SOUNDS*** like a good system, on paper - but as always the devil is in the details.
Which is why I am very wary of vouchers. There SHOULD be private schools that operate outside of the public school system. These schools should maintain complete autonomy. If they want to teach religion from Catholic to Muslim to Baptist to Wiccan, they should be able to. But as soon as Uncle Sam places any tax money into the school via public funding, the good Uncle is going to want to strip that school of what makes it special.
You and I are definitely on the same page here.
Once the government, at any level, starts providing funds all bets are off in regard to autonomy. Heck, it’s getting to the point where government doesn’t even have to provide funds and autonomy is still a moot point (see all the nanny state threads.)
I favor anything that increases choice for parents and encourages the development of a free market in education.
How is it different from our current system of charter schools?
The article did not discuss whether or not any of the private schools were religious. Charter schools in the U.S. are Secular Humanist.
Given you reasoning, we should immediately cease all Pell Grants and student loans for college students.
What do you mean by "acceptable in the US"? Are you wondering whether the public will accept it, or whether it would survive constitutional scrutiny? I'd answer both questions in the affirmative. (The stumbling block for voucher legislation is always teacher union-funded ad campaigns.)
How is it different from our current system of charter schools?
It's different in that it allows a school to keep any profit it makes (although US charter schools simply hide their profits in salaries, etc.) It would also be different if it allowed religion to be taught in the schools. As far as I'm concerned, US gov't schools violate the "free exercise" clause of the Constitution.
That's the best argument against vouchers, but it's flawed.
Suppose that under a voucher-regime the gov't decides to reassert control over the curricula of private schools. The parents of children in these schools, whether Bhuddist, Muslim, Catholic or Hippy Dippy, artsy-fartsy, would all unite to fight off gov't regulation. (There is historical precedent for this, as in the 1990s when homeschoolers fought off a planned gov't takeover of homeschools.) Conversely, under our current system of school funding, these same parents are at each other's throats, vying for control of school curricula.
Finally, in the worst case scenario, suppose that the gov't succeeds in re-regulating gov't-funded private schools. In this case, school quality would deteriorate to the point where wealthy parents would again seek out non-voucher-redeeming private schools for their children. We would revert to the status quo.
So there really is no reason to oppose vouchers. At worst, schooling will remain unchanged. At best, schooling will be revolutionized.
I meant acceptable to conservatives who don't feel the government, particularly the federal government, should be involved in education.
There are also a number of FReepers whose main objection to "government schools" is the amount of taxes used for those schools, and this Swedish system wouldn't seem to change that.
It would also be different if it allowed religion to be taught in the schools. As far as I'm concerned, US gov't schools violate the "free exercise" clause of the Constitution.
I have not been able to determine whether or not any of the Swedish independent schools are religious or not. I do know that some voucher programs, most noteably the federally funded voucher program in D.C., allow the vouchers to be used in parochial and other religious schools.
That's not my major worry about vouchers. Voucher programs so far, even in the program in D.C., generally don't provide enough money for tuition at independent private schools, and usually the tuitions at church-related schools are artificially low because the school is subsidized by the church as a ministry to the children of that church.
Also many small private schools will not accept the special-needs children public schools are required to serve, and the private schools that do are usually much more expensive than "regular" private schools.
It's not fair or realistic to ask churches to subsidize all children, so voucher programs should reflect the true cost of a child's education. That currently doesn't seem to be the case.
We are not discussing colleges here, thus rendering your point moot.
All student loans are not government issued or backed, but if you believe the federal government shouldn't be involved in education at all, they certainly should not be issuing Pell Grants.
If we don't see a problem on this level ( and we've had the GI bill vouchers since the end of WWII) I don't expect a problem on the K-12 level.
However....I would like to see vouchers, tax credits, charters, magnet schools,or government virtual or on-line schools used merely as a means to provide more choice for parents and to encourage the development of alternatives that can eventually lead to a completely free market. As it is now the traditional government school system is sucking the oxygen out of the free market.
I am for developing more and more alternatives to the traditional public school model (k-12), but I do not accept the idea that it can be done without government interference once government funding is accepted.
Charter schools, by their very nature, are quasi-government schools, although with a bit more autonomy than traditional public schools. But still do not have as much autonomy as truly private schools, be they religious or secular.
Do you believe that government vouchers for students attending colleges and universities should be discontinued. Hey! There is certainly a danger for government interference there!
Well?....Does the government interfere with private colleges and universities?
After WWII did vouchers to students going to college cause the government to interfere in the affairs of colleges?
Gabz,....I see a disconnect here.
Those who most vigorously fight against vouchers for K-12 students champion them for college students.
I have no disconnect here at all. I have never fought against vouchers of any sort, I just expressed my concern about them. Just because I express a concern does not mean I do not support them.
Please do not project upon me something I have never said nor agree with.
I know the sense in which you mean that, but there's nothing to stop government schools from soliciting donations, just as religious schools do. (Insert laughter here). The fact that this idea is laughable tells us something, doesn't it?
Also many small private schools will not accept the special-needs children public schools are required to serve, and the private schools that do are usually much more expensive than "regular" private schools.
Simply attach the money to the child, rather than assign the money and child to designated gov't schools.
It's not fair or realistic to ask churches to subsidize all children, so voucher programs should reflect the true cost of a child's education. That currently doesn't seem to be the case
80-90% of the typical gov't school budget consists of teacher salaries. Typically, teachers in gov't schools earn twice the salary of teachers in private schools. That is the single greatest factor in explaining the cost difference between gov't and private schools.
Actually, yes, they do. Google around and use "Title IX" or "Section 504" or "discrimination" as a keyword with "college federal assistance".
That may be true in your state. I don't believe that it is in my state, and I don't believe that you'd find any qualified science or math teachers to work for half of my salary. It's hard enough to find them now, because we can make so much more in industry.
In the case of BJU, it was even worse than it appears as BJ takes NO federal dollars in any form. No Stafford, No Pell, No VA (although they do offer scholarships to vets, but private ones) and students whose sole source of income is social security must be able to show how they are paying for college without using those funds. So yes, BJ had some out of date policies - so what? they weren't using any federal, state, or local government funds to run the university in any way.
You may or may not know Gabz, that UVA, William and Mary, and VT are thinking of converting from state universities to private. By doing this, they will drop some of the state requirements in procurement, hiring, and recruiting. The last I heard is that UVA alone would save several million a year, but the situation works best if all three come together to pool resources.
Government money always, ALWAYS comes with government strings. My goodness, even something simple as a dental practice has mountain of local, state, and federal regulations to follow!
But when it comes to vouchers, I have nothing against them, with the exception that I like the fact that private schools can be totally private and have whatever weirdness they want for their customers. I know that when those schools start taking money, the face of the school will change permanently and communities lose a valuable resource.
Should I assume that the 3 of you are lobbying for an end to Pell Grants, student loans guarantees, and state scholarships?
What surprises me is that those who are the most opposed to vouchers and tax credits for private K-12 schools also most often are the fiercest defends of vouchers for college students. There's a disconnect here.
I'm interested in hearing some thoughts....
Since your question goes to the crux of the article, I'd love to hear input on how this system in Sweden is different from our charter system - and also how/are religious schools funded? Also, is home schooling widely done in Sweden, and if so, is it done with minimum regulations or with lots of red tape
WHAT are you talking about???????
Why do you insist on making up stuff? Please show where any of us said any such thing?
What surprises me is that those who are the most opposed to vouchers and tax credits for private K-12 schools also most often are the fiercest defends of vouchers for college students.
Who here is doing that? I asked you the same question earlier.
There's a disconnect here.
And it is obviously with you.
What you said.
I'd like to know more about that as well. It seems to me that some of our charters actually get more funding than regular public schools, since some get subsidies from private organizations, but I'm not certain of that, since funding formulas may vary from state to state.
In my cursory search, I didn't find a lot of information about the independent schools in Sweden.
Sometimes.....it just gets weird around here
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