Skip to comments.CHINESE LINES HOLD SOUTH OF KIUKIANG (8/2/38)
Posted on 08/02/2008 6:18:24 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
The Japanese also have made little progress in clearing out Chinese troops from the Lushan and Kwanglu Mountains southeast of Kiukiang by attacks from the north and west. Kuling is reported still quiet. It is claimed that the Japanese have suffered heavy casualties in the recent Yangtze front operations.
The Japanese air force yesterday bombed Chinese fortifications along the Yangtze.
General Chang Chun, former Foreign Minister, was yesterday appointed director general of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-sheks headquarters for Szechwan, Kweichow and Sikang and simultaneously relieved of the Governorship of Szechwan.
This position is very important as regards consolidation of the Central Governments position in West China, and its responsibilities include supervision and direction of political affairs, maintenance of peace and order and construction of defense works.
Garrison headquarters here reports that 200,000 Wuhan civilians have been mobilized and assigned to auxiliary military duties in connection with the defense of the Hankow area. Headquarters issues this report as evidence of the concrete measures being taken to mobilize the Wuhan populace for a determined and united defense.
Despite large-scale fighting in which Japans combined land, naval and air forces hammered at the Chinese defenders, the Japanese admitted that a fierce conflict still was continuing south of Kiukiang, with the Chinese line unbroken.
The Japanese said that their forces were pounding forward north of the river in the Kiukiang area, but they admitted that gains were small. They said that the principal struggle in that sector was northwest of Taihu, near the western border of Anhwei Province.
Northeast of Kiukiang Japanese cavalry fought to within a mile of Susung, but was repulsed.
Latest dispatches from the front said that the Japanese immediately threw in two regiments of reinforcements and renewed the assault, while the Chinese attacked all along the line to Taienshan, thirty miles to the north.
A second Japanese column was advancing directly westward from Kiukiang and a third was attempting to break through Chinese lines at Shahochen, just south of Kiukiang.
The drive was aided by Japanese warships in Lake Poyang, which bombarded Chinese positions along the lake shore.
In Shansi and Honan Provinces and along the Peiping-Hankow and Tientsin-Pukow Railways widespread daily clashes continued.
Sporadic artillery duels and skirmishes also were daily occurrences across the Tsien Tang River from Hangchow, southwest of Shanghai in Chekiang Province.
The Fourth Route Army, cooperating with guerrillas, was increasingly active in the Lake Tai area, west of Shanghai, and along the Shanghai-Nanking and the Shanghai-Hangchow Railways.
Japanese military authorities carried out extensive raids in Pootung, industrial area across the Whangpoo river from Shanghai, arresting twenty men and women suspected as terrorists, and confiscating thirty guns and eight bombs.
He declared that fresh troops from the Wuhan area are at present being thrown into the area west of Kiukiang, where Japanese troops are engaging a portion of the Fourth Army of the Chinese.
An important break in the main line of Chinese defenses in the Hankow area was claimed also when it was asserted that the Japanese advance had battered in the north gate of the walled town of Susung last night and captured the town.
Japanese aerial observers at dawn this morning reported that the Chinese forces in the surrounding area appeared in full retreat. Susung is an important strategic point.
Japanese also claim control of Hwangmei, north of Kiukiang, and from this point an excellent motor road leads to Hankow. Chinese sources, however, say that already many of its bridges have been dynamited and portions of the highway flooded in order to impede the Japanese advance.
The Chinese forces were checked, it was claimed, only after months of depredations during which two Japanese planes were shot down.
Sino-Japanese war update.
For instance, PJ O'Rourke's recent travelogue is just filled with regurgitations of Mao-ist propaganda & myth-making from that era, all of which makes complete sense once you understand what Mao was trying to accomplish [and in fact accomplishing] at the time:
The Cleveland of Asia: A Journey Through Chinas Rust Belt
P. J. O'Rourke
CIA files released in the last year affirm that the CIA helped insure that Mao won.
Demonic Traitorous globalist pig manipulators.
God will deal with all such in His time.
The suffering between now and then is not fun to contemplate, however.
Mao was a pure psychopath....along with Stalin and Hitler he was about the most prolific killer of the 20th Century.All he was trying to accomplish was the gaining of total power....and adoration.Nothing more.Despite what he...or anyone else....might claim.
Yeah, C&H indicate that there were a number of Americans in the Mao effort, to include Edgar Snow, Anna Louise Strong, an un-named American bank [I really wish they'd named the bank], Gen Patrick Hurley, George Marshall, and probably the entire US State Department, among others.
I may be wrong.
But I have a very faint impression it was Bank of America.
Thanks for the details.
Right - Mao used the long march to eliminate his most powerful rivals within the Communist Party high command.
One of the things that's fascinating about PJ ORourke's piece is the story told to him by a survivor of the Long March, who was marching under the command of one of Mao's rivals, and whose comrades were systematically marched & starved to death by Mao so as to eliminate them as competitors to Mao [and his troops].
But sixty or seventy years later, when he spoke to PJ, this survivor still didn't realize that - that the Long March was so terrible for him & his comrades precisely because Mao was determined to [and succeeded in] killing them all off.
PS: Getting back to the story at hand, Mao used the entire "war" against Japan to attack Chiang in the countryside - Mao viewed the Japanese as his allies in weakening and deposing Chiang.
...both sides of the Yangtze River in the vicinity of Kiukiang, 135 miles downriver from Hankow.
I see Hankow on the map. Kiukiang apparently doesn't rate a dot of its own.
One of the stories mentions a cavalry attack, but it doesn’t say if it was tank cavalry or horse cavalry. I mention this because in 1939 both Belgium and Poland fielded horse cavalry.
"From December 1937 events such as the Japanese attack on the USS Panay and the Nanking Massacre swung public opinion in the West sharply against Japan and increased their fear of Japanese expansion, which prompted the United States, the United Kingdom, and France to provide loan assistance for war supply contracts to Kuomintang.
"Furthermore, Australia prevented a Japanese Government-owned company from taking over an iron mine in Australia, and banned iron ore exports in 1938.
"Japan retaliated by invading Vietnam in 1940, and successfully blockaded China and prevented the import of arms, fuel and 10,000 tons/month of materials supplied by the Western Powers through the Haiphong-Yunnan Fou railway line.
"By mid-1941, the United States organized the American Volunteer Group, or Flying Tigers. Led by Claire Chennault, their early combat success of 300 kills against a loss of 12 of their shark painted P-40 fighters earned them wide recognition at the time when Allies were suffering heavy losses."
So, the US provided Mao's communists with how many tons of supplies, and how many fighter planes?
I don’t recall the details.
I think there’s a thread on FR.
I think it was more holding back certain things, facilitating certain things . . . aiding with materiel was a minor part of such manipulations, imho.
The puppet masters have been playing all sides against the middle for many, many decades.
PLEASE read post #76 at the FR thread link in my tag line.
After reading those quotes of leaders from 1900 on, THEN tell me whether you believe the CIA did no such thing, or not.
Surely you do not intend to suggest that the CIA was helping Chi-Coms during the 1930s?? ;-)
During W.W.II, the US provided "Uncle Joe" Stalin with many $billions in military aid, and Chinese nationalists (even before Pearl Harbor) with many $millions in aid -- tens of thousands of tons, according to the source above.
I'd suggest that any aid provided directly to Chi-Coms was relatively miniscule.
The CIA did not exist until after WWII.
Marshall et al WITHHELD supplies from Chiang, and repeatedly restrained him from going after Mao and finishing off Mao once and for all [while Chiang still had the upper hand] at the same time that Stalin was arming Mao to the teeth.
BTW, after Chiang was vanquished to Formosa/Taiwan, most of China was effectively a Soviet satellite [literally - it was almost another province of the Soviet Union] until Stalin's death - that's something else which Chang & Halliday make clear.
Yes, of course, which is why any suggestion that the "CIA" was helping Chi-Coms during the 1930s is so utterly ridiculous it's beyond response.
But I was trying to be a nice guy, and not insult the IQ of our worthy poster, Quix...
Factually the assertion about the "CIA" might not be correct, but the sentiment itself is most definitely correct - the very same Communists who riddled the FDR & Truman administrations, and who helped Mao rise to power, are indistinguishable from the Valerie Plame / Joe Wilson / Foggy Bottom types who are working so diligently to bring down the Bush administration and to promote the causes of nihilism, statism, and Islam.
The names may have changed over the course of the last century, but the methods & the ends are the same.
Horses. I don't think the term "cavalry" was used for other than mounted troops (as in armored cavalry or air cavalry) until the era of the horse was dead and gone.
I came across a cavalry related anecdote in a book about Joe Stilwell I am reading that Tainan recommended. In 1938 Stilwell was military attache in China, but after war broke out in Europe he was brought home and promoted to help with the frantic U.S. preparation of the military for war. He spent a brief period at West Point lecturing on the Sino-Japanese war...
...an occasion memorable for his reply to a Cavalry officer's question on the role of the horse in the fighting in China. After a thoughtful pause Twilwell replied, "Good eating, if your're hungry."
Barbara W. Tuchman
Stilwell and the American Experience in China, 1911-45, pg 204.
It’s the CIA documents themselves that documented our aid to the CHICOMS.
I would not argue it was above miniscule. It was, evidently quite decisive enough—helped them win.
I was disappointedly shocked to read of it—even after all my 45+ years of study of the globalists.
I forget the man’s name Madame Chiang Kai Sheck is holding onto??
I’ve read most of either Chenault’s autobiography of the time or one of his colleague’s.
Let me give you guys a clue.
I know this will come as a huge shock to you to learn...
During World War Two, until it's end in 1945, our ENEMIES were the AXIS powers -- i.e., Germany, Italy and Japan. Got that so far? Axis = enemy.
Our ALLIES were the Communists -- especially the Soviet Union, who lost 100 dead for every American soldier killed in battle. In those days, we liked and appreciated the Communists, we didn't consider them our enemies, and we were glad for every Axis Enemy they killed.
Now, of course, you may consider that naive, even wrong headed, but the facts are the facts, and if you don't understand it, then nothing America did in those days can make any sense to you.
Things were not quite as simplistic in all respects and all regions as you seem to think they were.
Vinegar Joe, aka Uncle Joe, but never to be confused with that other Uncle Joe.
Btw, I once went to a school named after him. Of course, that does not make me an expert. ;-)
I thought so. Stillwell.
It was his WWII diary etc. I read most of.
He seemed to do an excellent, no-nonsense job yet had some sense of humor and down to earth-ness about him.
I enjoyed his book.
If you think I'm too "simplistic," do you want to suggest an example, where the US supported our Axis enemies against our Communist allies?
I think the key point to understand is that America's strategic alliance with the Soviet Union was made by Roosevelt and supported by Churchill with far fewer reservations than we today believe appropriate.
So, both the credit for victory and blame for Communists' successes go to FDR.
But, in Rooosevelt's defense, please remember the basic wartime statistics: for every German soldier Americans killed, the Soviets killed ten. And for every American soldier who died in battle, 100 Soviets died.
So in the end, it was largely Soviet blood with American treasure which won that war. And I don't think we should be so quick to forget it.
As for Communist spys in the US government -- yes, all of that is true, and all rightly blamed on President Roosevelt. The US government did not really begin to understand that Russia would be the new enemy until after FDR passed away, in 1945.
Glad to see you have more appreciation for some of the complexities than first seemed to be the case.
George Marshall didn't betray Chiang until AFTER World War Two [although Molotov was feeding disinformation to Hurley during the war].
Chang & Halliday have an entire chapter on it, called "Saved by Washington" [i.e. Mao saved by Washington], covering the period 1944 to 1947.
Our ALLIES were the Communists
No, in China, our allies were supposed to be the Kuomintang, led by Chiang.
But after WWII, Chiang was betrayed by Marshall & the State Department:
George C. Marshall - Post War: China and Secretary of State
...In December 1945, Truman sent Marshall to China to broker a coalition government between the Communists under Mao Zedong and America's Nationalist allies under Chiang Kai-shek. Marshall had no leverage over the Communists, but threatened to withdraw American aid essential to the Nationalists. Both sides rejected his proposals and the Chinese Civil War escalated, with the Communists winning in 1949. His mission a failure, he returned to the United States in January 1947. As Secretary of State in 1947-48, Marshall seems to have disagreed with strong opinions in The Pentagon and State department that Chiang's success was vital to American interests, insisting that U.S. troops not become involved...
Patrick J. Hurley - China
...Throughout his tenure in China, Hurley felt that his efforts were being undermined by State Department officials, principally John Stewart Service and John Paton Davies in China, and John Carter Vincent in Washington, who he felt were unduly sympathetic to the Communist forces led by Mao Zedong...
"Today's" date is August 2, 1938.
The issue under discussion is US "CIA" support for Chi-Coms during the 1930s. I say it was totally insignificant, if it even existed.
Do you disagree?
Rings true to what little I know.
The question as to which political group directed the Chinese war effort and exerted most of the effort to resist the Japanese remains a controversial issue.
In the Chinese People’s War of Resistance Against Japan Memorial near the Marco Polo Bridge and in mainland Chinese textbooks, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) claims that it was the Communist Party that directed Chinese efforts in the war and did everything to resist the Japanese invasion. Recently, however, with a change in the political climate, the CCP has admitted that certain Nationalist generals made important contributions in resisting the Japanese. The official history in mainland China is that the KMT fought a bloody, yet indecisive, frontal war against Japan, while it was the CCP that engaged the Japanese forces in far greater numbers behind enemy lines. This emphasis on the CCP’s central role is partially reflected by the PRC’s labeling of the war as the Chinese People’s Anti-Japanese War of Resistance rather than merely the War of Resistance. According to the PRC official point of view, the Nationalists mostly avoided fighting the Japanese in order to preserve its strength for a final showdown with the Communists. However, for the sake of Chinese reunification and appeasing the ROC on Taiwan, the PRC has now “acknowledged” that the Nationalists and the Communists were “equal” contributors because the victory over Japan belonged to the Chinese people, rather than to any political party.
Leaving aside Nationalists sources, scholars researching third party Japanese and Soviet sources have documented quite a different view. Such studies claim that the Communists actually played a minuscule involvement in the war against the Japanese compared to the Nationalists and used guerrilla warfare as well as opium sales to preserve its strength for a final showdown with the Kuomintang. This is congruent with the Nationalist viewpoint, as demonstrated by history textbooks published in Taiwan, which gives the KMT credit for the brunt of the fighting. According to these third-party scholars, the Communists were not the main participants in any of the 22 major battles, most involving more than 100,000 troops on both sides, between China and Japan. Soviet liaison to the Chinese Communists Peter Vladimirov documented that he never once found the Chinese Communists and Japanese engaged in battle during the period from 1942 to 1945. He also expressed frustration at not being allowed by the Chinese Communists to visit the frontline, although as a foreign diplomat Vladimirov may have been overly optimistic to expect to be allowed to join Chinese guerrilla sorties. The Communists usually avoided open warfare (the Hundred Regiments Campaign and the Battle of Pingxingguan are notable exceptions), preferring to fight in small squads to harass the Japanese supply lines. In comparison, right from the beginning of the war the Nationalists committed their best troops (including the 36th, 87th, 88th divisions, the crack divisions of Chiang’s Central Army) to defend Shanghai from the Japanese. The Japanese considered the Kuomintang rather than the Communists as their main enemy and bombed the Nationalist wartime capital of Chongqing to the point that it was the most heavily bombed city in the world to date. The KMT army suffered some 3.2 million casualties while the CCP increased its military strength from minimally significant numbers to 1.7 million men. This change in strength was a direct result of Japanese forces fighting mainly in Central and Southern China, away from major Communist strongholds such as those in Shaanxi.
I have heard it said that Japanese archives indicate that Japanese forces took 90% of their casualties fighting the Nationalists. There’s another anecdote that 200 Nationalist generals got killed, whereas only 2 Communist generals were killed in the war. The real problem with Stilwell is that he tried to win WWII on the back of the Chinese military - something that was not within the ability of the Nationalists. It could be argued that Stilwell, by destroying the cream of the Nationalist armies in forlorn hopes against the Japanese military, is the true author of the Chinese Communist victory in 1949*. The best people that the Nationalists managed to recruit were fed into the Japanese meatgrinder, even while the Communists conducted what amounts to an extended period of rest and recreation during WWII.
* This victory cost us another 100,000 men in the Korean and Vietnam Wars. My view is that Stilwell has a lot to answer for.
"Theres another anecdote that 200 Nationalist generals got killed, whereas only 2 Communist generals were killed in the war. "
Your comments correspond more closely to my understanding, and I am far from expert.
The claim that Chaing warehoused US military supplies while fighting 22 major battles and losing 3.2 million casualties simply does not compute.
I suspect we are being treated to some Chi-com propaganda.
"The best people that the Nationalists managed to recruit were fed into the Japanese meatgrinder, even while the Communists conducted what amounts to an extended period of rest and recreation during WWII."
Sadly, history is absolutely chock full of the cruelest ironies.
But we must remember that the war in China, if it did nothing else, kept millions of Japanese tied down there, preventing them from defending their empire against the advancing Americans. So, we can easily say that all those Chinese soldiers killed saved a corresponding number of American lives.
I credit President Roosevelt as the genius behind America's war strategy, but I also blame him for the post war success of Soviet and Chinese communism.
Hankow is on the left side of the map about half way down.
Link not working.
Note the Japanese light tanks below:
Whoops. Oh well. It was just the battle map that BroJoeK just posted.
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