Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

FR Gun Club
Radio Free NJ - Buying a First Shotgun ^ | T. Costell

Posted on 09/10/2008 3:49:23 AM PDT by sig226

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 121-138 next last
To: hiredhand
excellent summation...

I would direct you to P8triots # 49 & 55 as well...for added info on parts fatigue/ammo...

61 posted on 09/10/2008 6:47:03 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 ("JesusChrist 08"...Trust in the Lord......=...LiveFReeOr Die...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: sig226
As usual, a post full of great information. The first question I ask myself when considering a shotgun is “does Knoxx make a SpecOps stock for it?” Seriously, I'm not a recoil junkie and the SpecOps stock is a pain relief on the front end.

http://www.knoxx.com/index2.html

62 posted on 09/10/2008 6:47:57 AM PDT by Niteranger68 (McCain/Palin/America 2008 vs Obama/Biden/Media 2008 ...you decide.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hiredhand

About $13.00 for 10 rounds.


63 posted on 09/10/2008 6:52:38 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Vote McWhatshisname and PALIN)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: p8triot; hiredhand
...The term "Magnum" when applied to shotshells means "more shot." Magnum shotshells usually propel their pellets at a lower velocity than a standard shotshell...

I enjoy learnin somethin new everyday, now if I could just stop forgettin two things as well...hehehe

64 posted on 09/10/2008 7:02:40 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 ("JesusChrist 08"...Trust in the Lord......=...LiveFReeOr Die...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: Gilbo_3

I haven’t tried any 00 ‘tactical’, but simple physics tells me that less recoil (attributed solely to the ammo load, not the gun design) indicates less energy put to the target. This effect decreases as distance increases, but at typical defensive shotgun distances I want the most energy on the target.


65 posted on 09/10/2008 7:06:01 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: P8riot; tcostell; Deaf Smith

Thanks for the assist.


66 posted on 09/10/2008 7:09:56 AM PDT by TexasNative2000 (Obviously, liberals can't handle a strong, independent woman.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Gilbo_3

The major reason magnum shells were developed was to increase shot mass. This was necessary due to environmentalist wackos that succeeded in getting the use of lead shot restricted in favor of shot with less specific density, such as steel and bismuth.


67 posted on 09/10/2008 7:13:31 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: PeteB570

Yup, Winchester 1300, with 00 Buckshot. Load 2&4 duplex if you’re not sure the shooting will all be inside. I’ve shot mine many times and only taken it apart once. It cleans with a spray can of Rem. Oil and compressed air quite nicely.


68 posted on 09/10/2008 7:52:28 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Shooter 2.5
If you care to scare some intruder away then do it with your voice.

The little champagne-bottle *POP!* from the igniter cartridge of an M2A1-7 flamethrower makes a pretty good attention-getter, too. I doubt that most of those who've heard one just a little too late to do much of anything about it knew exactly what it was, but had at least SOME idea that it was not a sign of Good News.


69 posted on 09/10/2008 7:55:52 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: hiredhand
“1. ID the target as friend...don't shoot.
2. ID the target as foe...shoot.
3. Obtain no positive ID and relocate because at this point you have completely given away your position to an unknown.”

Two nights ago, I had an intruder in the house at about 0430 hrs. That's the third time in my life I've had to deal with that situation. My approach is to light the place up like the 4th of July. All the lights go on. I get big and loud. I get angry. I issue simple, direct, and clear commands, and I've done it in two foreign languages. So far the technique has resulted in the sounds of panicked flight, and a perp taken into custody a few blocks away. I'm not interested in effecting an arrest. I would prefer to avoid having some perp’s entrails draped over my new sofa. I don't do “sweeps,” or shoulder rolls into the living room. I don't use lasers or weapons mounted lighting systems. We have too many “innocents” living with us, coming and going at all hours. I don't want a laser guiding the muzzle of my shotty to the chest of a family member. That's the rules of engagement for our house. It will, no doubt, be different for somebody else's. It's all situational.

In my State, you have to be very careful of Nr. 2. It's against the law here to even threaten the use of deadly force if it doesn't involve countering a direct threat to your life. Use a gun to stop someone from stealing your car in the driveway, or the TV from your living room, and the law will put you in jail. Everyone needs to understand that when the Sheriff arrives, you must be prepared to make a credible statement to the effect that you feared for your life.

70 posted on 09/10/2008 8:02:24 AM PDT by PowderMonkey (Will Work for Ammo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: P8riot
I haven’t tried any 00 ‘tactical’, but simple physics tells me that less recoil (attributed solely to the ammo load, not the gun design) indicates less energy put to the target. This effect decreases as distance increases, but at typical defensive shotgun distances I want the most energy on the target.

Not necessarily. Remember that more power in a shotgun shell can also mean more muzzle flash at night, as well as the possibility of larger or *blown center* [doughnut-shaped ring] patterns with less than full coverage of an intended target. Lower recoil buckshot and slug loads may be easier on the gun as well, and the lesser recoil can allower shorter recovery time from recoil, allowing a faster shot on a second or third target, or a quicker second follow-up shot on a deserving initial target.

That's not at all to say that the lower recoil rounds are always or should often be the first choice for every shooter, in every shotgun. But they're certainly worth consideration, particularly if they happen to pattern well or better in your partiucular gun.

71 posted on 09/10/2008 8:03:47 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: archy
While that weapon would no doubt be used to great effect on a home invader bent on evil deeds, I think it would be a bit tough on the furniture.

L

72 posted on 09/10/2008 8:04:14 AM PDT by Lurker (She's not a lesbian, she doesn't whine, she doesn't hate her country, and she's not afraid of guns.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: bmwcyle

Cool...I think I get some. Thanks! :-)


73 posted on 09/10/2008 8:30:55 AM PDT by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: Gilbo_3; p8triot
I enjoy learnin somethin new everyday, now if I could just stop forgettin two things as well...hehehe

My son had ammo that "looked" pretty much the same to me. It was all high brass. But I picked up this one that was a green plastic shell with a black metal base and he said, "You better hold on tight to that one!" Good golly! That one set me back! The spinning target (we were shooting at) spun around a lot though! :-)
74 posted on 09/10/2008 8:33:36 AM PDT by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: archy

Like I said, I hadn’t tried any. I prefer to stick with what I know works. I can appreciate that lower recoil is less wear on the gun and that it affords quicker follow-ups, but if you look at some of the muzzle energy ratings of a lot of the tactical stuff out there it is still less than #1 shot. Still less energy on target. No doubt that it is effective though.


75 posted on 09/10/2008 8:35:47 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: Gilbo_3
Hows that 00 'tactical' buck spoken of earlier compare with standard #1 shot ???

The standard 12 gauge [or *gage* if you prefer the US Army spelling] load for a shotgun is the 9-pellet M162 OO buckshot round, each pellet being about .33 caliber in diameter. Muzzle velocity from the military 12-gage load runs around 1,450 FPS from a military-standard 20-inch barrellede shotgun.

The Winchester commercial equivalent is their 12 Gauge, 2-3/4" LG., SUPER X, BUCKSHOT, 00 BUCK, 9 PELLETS, # XB1200. Their Reduced Recoil OO Buck load is the Winchester 12 GUAGE, 00 BUCK, 9 PELLET, REDUCED RECOIL, #RA12005.

Remington does things a little differently: their reduced recoil OO Buck offering is the Remington 12 Gauge, 2-3/4" , MAX DR., BUCKSHOT, REDUCED RECOIL, 00 BUCK, 8 PELLETS, # RR128B00. Their full-power OO buck loading is the Remington 12 GAUGE, 2-3/4" LG., MAX DR., BUCKSHOT, 00 BUCK, 9 PELLETS, # 12BK00.

Moving on to the #1 buckshot loads, there are generally two power levels available: the standard 16-pellet load carrying 16 pellets of approximately .30 caliber, or the 2¾-inch magnum load which uses 20 of the .30 pellets.

The Remington 16-pellet load is Remington 12 Gauge, 2-3/4" , MAX DR., BUCKSHOT 16 PELLETS, HIGH POWER, # 12B1.

As for the effectiveness of the various loads, that depends to a large extent on which one offers the best pattern in your particular gun at the range at which you expect to use it: I use 20-pellet #1 loads in one of my shotguns, 8-pellet Remington low-recoil *lites* in a second, and standard M162 OO Buckshot in the other two...because those loads work best in those particular guns.

As for which is most useful from the standpoint of wound ballistics effectiveness, this 10-year-old Tactical Brief from the Firearms Tactical Institute is still pretty much valid, though the 20-pellet #1 buckshot loads are pretty hard to locate nowadays.

"12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition

For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not."

76 posted on 09/10/2008 8:41:24 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Lurker
While that weapon would no doubt be used to great effect on a home invader bent on evil deeds, I think it would be a bit tough on the furniture.

What, you don't have a Nomex slip cover on your sofa and recliner?

77 posted on 09/10/2008 8:43:23 AM PDT by archy (Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno. [from Virgil's *Aeneid*.])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: PowderMonkey
Good points. Those three points are of course overly constrained. In our state, you can't legally issue deadly force unless you are confronted with an equal force, or are in "fear of your life, or the lives of your family (occupants)". Strangely enough, it is legal to shoot through a door, window, or exterior wall of a dwelling IF an exterior breech is imminent and you are in fear of your life. I don't think it's been tried in court yet though. I have very close contact with large components of our LEO community here (on account of my profession) and they've all told me the same thing...which is...after a shooting, the standard line is, "I was in fear of my life, and the lives of my family!" Say no more, and no less...irrespective of whether the perp is armed or NOT. Also, most of these have also told me that a teenaged daughter in the house is an "ace in the hole" if you end up killing a B&E perp. I wouldn't use that as an excuse for killing an intruder though. She'd probably kill him first. She has better reflexes that I do, better eyesight, and keeps an AR-15 where it's easy to reach and quick to load! I guess in my house it's like the humorous sign I've seen before, "Forget the dog. Beware of the kids!" :-)

Having said all that, I don't relish the thought of killing somebody in my home. Anybody who says they "look forward to it" has a problem (I'm not saying that you do!). I've seen people die before, and it rarely happens like in the movies. They bleed, and puke, defecate, urinate, and cry for their mothers while they're dying and bleeding out. If I have to, I will. But our goal as an armed household is to see that everybody simply stays "safe"....the perp included. Now if the perp wants to have a shoot out, then we're going to oblige. But we honestly don't look forward to it and would be happy to just have "zombies" stay AWAY and save them and us the trouble, mess, and aggravation. :-)

Your approach sounds effective, and from your own account, it IS. But you have a realistic approach. It's the people who believe that noise and "effect" alone will frighten badguys away who are potentially setting themselves up for a big disappointment. These people don't seriously consider the "what if" it doesn't frighten them away. It's akin to the thought that brandishing a weapon will simply cause somebody to run away. But if they themselves draw a weapon as well, then the dynamics of the situation change completely and the advantage is lost.

I'm glad everybody stayed safe in your encounter two nights ago!
78 posted on 09/10/2008 8:53:01 AM PDT by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: archy
the lesser recoil can allower shorter recovery time from recoil, allowing a faster shot on a second or third target, or a quicker second follow-up shot on a deserving initial target.

This is something that is a primary concern with all ammunition that I use.

79 posted on 09/10/2008 9:25:37 AM PDT by B4Ranch ("Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you"--John Steinbeck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: Gilbo_3; hiredhand; Squantos

Hello gentlemen...sorry for my self-inflicted hiatus...

I have several of the fine offerings of Mossberg; two 500A’s and one 590, specifically for those potential nocturnal “Repel Boarders” moments.

The 590 is the standard military version, but with a side saddle added on that holds a quick extra 6 rounds. That’s in the bedroom at night (chambered - no racking needed), backed up by a Glock 21 with a Surefire on it in the headboard.

Regarding the other two, the 500s: one has a folding stock, marine coat, 18” barrel. The other has a fixed stock, 18” barrel, and is matte (parkerized). My kids handle those well, should they need them, and can get to them instantly.

Also have an old, old, OLD Harrington & Richardson 20 gauge bolt action that I don’t bring out too often. It didn’t cost much brand new way, way back in the day (lower end gun), but it’s got sentimental family value to me, and is quite the lovely old piece.

I also have an “Organic Alarm System” - they make lots and lots of noise, slobber, and sleep on the middle floor of the house. Anyone coming in, either on the first floor or trying to come in on the middle floor, has to get through them first without waking them (not easy)...then, if successful, they’ll deal with a fully awake and thoroughly armed entire family on the top floor.

Suffice to say, it would be bad...very bad...as I taught my family - “This Unit Must Survive”....


80 posted on 09/10/2008 9:28:13 AM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By any means necessary.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 41-6061-8081-100 ... 121-138 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson