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'The Odyssey' and 'The Iliad' are giving up new secrets about the ancient world
Boston Globe ^ | September 28, 2008 | Jonathan Gottschall

Posted on 10/03/2008 11:34:06 AM PDT by SunkenCiv

In his influential book, "Troy and Homer," German classicist Joachim Latacz argues that the identification of Hisarlik as the site of Homer's Troy is all but proven. Latacz's case is based not only on archeology, but also on fascinating reassessments of cuneiform tablets from the Hittite imperial archives. The tablets, which are dated to the period when the Late Bronze Age city at Hisarlik was destroyed, tell a story of a western people harassing a Hittite client state on the coast of Asia Minor. The Hittite name for the invading foreigners is very close to Homer's name for his Greeks - Achaians - and the Hittite names for their harassed ally are very close to "Troy" and "Ilios," Homer's names for the city.

"At the very core of the tale," Latacz argues, "Homer's 'Iliad' has shed the mantle of fiction commonly attributed to it."

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Books/Literature; History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: epigraphyandlanguage; godsgravesglyphs; greece; greeks; homer; latacz; schliemann; trojanwar; troy
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To: SunkenCiv
An American scholar named Milman Parry (1902-1935) developed the theory that the Homeric poems are oral poems--there was no fixed text and every performance would have been different. The poet was basically composing in front of a live audience, not writing words down--he had basic themes and plots and had a large store of formulas that he could use to put together lines that would fit the metrical requirements of a line of poetry.

Parry studied how living oral poets learned their techniques and made recordings of such poetry (in Yugoslavia) in order to understand better how Homer would have operated. The Homeric poems are much longer than could have been performed on one occasion but show the traits of oral poetry (like many repeated phrases). Homer would have inherited basic stories from earlier generations. Some genuine information was preserved but it's hard to know what really dates back to the 13th century BC and what was added by later poets--how many of the figures in the Iliad are real people and how many are made-up names, for example.

It's not entirely clear why and when the Iliad and Odyssey were written down--obviously not before the adoption of the alphabet. Later on rhapsodes memorized the fixed texts word for word--Plato's dialogue Ion features a rhapsode named Ion who knows Homer's poems by heart.

21 posted on 10/03/2008 9:00:25 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: SunkenCiv

That “shortage of women” is part of what drives China and the Saracens. That “shortage of women” drives hyper masculine societies toward conquest of more introspective feminine societies.


22 posted on 10/04/2008 3:59:12 AM PDT by ThanhPhero (di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: SunkenCiv

an anhropologist some years ago found that the oral traditions regarding the sea voyages of the polynesian people who left Tahiti for Hawaii were remarkably accurate as to the navigational info which had been transferred over generations by the keepers of the oral tradition using mnemetic remembrance codes.

We all remember the boy scout pledge amd the pledge of allegiance that we memorized.
those are merely micro oral traditions that virtually everyone can remember.

I don[t think it is unusual or impossible that culturally important, but lengthly, stories of a culture can be memorized by selected ‘shamans’ or singers to pass down the traditions of a people.


23 posted on 10/04/2008 12:11:34 PM PDT by wildbill
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To: SunkenCiv; Verginius Rufus
I think the best scenario is that Troy and the Greeks were carrying out raids against each other - Viking style raids to loot cattle and women.

I never understood the position Helen held in the story - a willing captive that would belong to whomever was strong enough to hold on to her until I realized this has to do with the ancient practice of wife-napping and counting coup?

The Greek counter raids failed until an earthquake leveled the city walls and allowed the Greeks to take the city?\

24 posted on 08/19/2009 5:58:17 AM PDT by Nikas777 (En touto nika, "In this, be victorious")
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To: Nikas777; SunkenCiv; Verginius Rufus
The point in the source claiming that at the time of the war Greece did not yet have city-states, but only tribes seems odd. I thought that the war was during the Mycenaean period, when city states obviously existed.

The Illiad, of course ends with the death and funeral of the Trojan hero Hector, who is my favorite hero in the story.

25 posted on 08/19/2009 6:56:12 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla; SunkenCiv; Verginius Rufus

I think at this time Greece had settlements that were more akin to those found in Western Europe during the middle ages. You had the land lord’s fortress at the high point (an acropolis) and maybe a market square and temple complex and the rest of the people lived on small farms?


26 posted on 08/19/2009 7:02:15 AM PDT by Nikas777 (En touto nika, "In this, be victorious")
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To: Nikas777
That seems to line up with what I remember of Mycenaean civilization. Naturally there would have been considerable numbers of trading and commercial establishments.
27 posted on 08/19/2009 7:09:49 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: Nikas777; Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Thanks!


28 posted on 08/19/2009 4:33:10 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: Nikas777
The Homeric epics are probably a mishmash from various eras--a few authentic details from the Bronze Age, but more from the later so-called Dark Age closer to the time the version of the poems we have was created.

The recent tendency seems to be to go back to the notion that the Troy of the Trojan War was level VI (not VIIA). The people doing the most recent excavations at Troy (since 1988) seem to be of that persuasion.

29 posted on 08/22/2009 6:02:33 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus
It is funny how much we don't know about the most famous war in antiquity.

Either the war was extraordinary enough to be remembered or Homer was so talented a bard he made it worth remembering.

30 posted on 08/24/2009 6:43:05 AM PDT by Nikas777 (En touto nika, "In this, be victorious")
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