Posted on 10/06/2008 11:02:05 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ... The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by French epigrapher and professor emeritus Andre Bernand as meaning either, "by Christ the magician" or "the magician by Christ." ...He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located...
While not discounting the Jesus Christ interpretation, other researchers have offered different possible interpretations for the engraving, which was made on the thin-walled ceramic bowl after it was fired, since slip was removed during the process. Bert Smith, a professor of classical archaeology and art at Oxford University, suggests the engraving might be a dedication, or present, made by a certain "Chrestos" belonging to a possible religious association called Ogoistais. Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy, added that if Smith's interpretation proves valid, the word "Ogoistais" could then be connected to known religious groups that worshipped early Greek and Egyptian gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Athena and Isis. Hallof additionally pointed out that historians working at around, or just after, the time of the bowl, such as Strabon and Pausanias, refer to the god "Osogo" or "Ogoa," so a variation of this might be what's on the bowl. It is even possible that the bowl refers to both Jesus Christ and Osogo.
(Excerpt) Read more at dsc.discovery.com ...
Franck Goddio/ Hilti Foundation, photos: Christoph Gerigk | 'By Christ the Magician' -- A bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., is engraved with what may be the world's first known reference to Christ. The engraving reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."
thanks Blam.
‘Jesus was a Palestinian,’ claims U.S. history text
World Net Daily | October 03, 2008 | Bob Unruh
Posted on 10/03/2008 5:09:03 AM PDT by Sopater
17 posted on 10/03/2008 6:11:32 AM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2096530/posts?page=17#17
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Are you sure that doesn’t really say “Starbucks”?
j/k - thanks for posting this story - I love reading the archeology stories that get posted here.
The Historicity of Jesus Christ [Open Thread under Religion Moderator’s Guidelines]
History | August 3, 2008 | Kevmo
Posted on 08/04/2008 1:19:19 PM PDT by Kevmo
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2056400/posts
I don’t mind saying He’s done some magic on me!
Thaank you Jesus.
Interesting. Some of the early non-Christian sources that refer to Christ often label Him a “magician” or a “wonder worker”, cf. Josephus and the Talmud.
Myself, I’m convinced that the miraculous exploits of Christ were well-known to contemporary pagan and Jew alike.
Is it any wonder that the apostle John warned against the gnostics?
Funny it didn’t say, “the 20th Century reinterpreters’ historical Jesus....”
I just finished a 32 page essay called “Pagan Roots of the Christ Myth” which points out that many “christs” from ancient times have had virgin births, were crucified in some fashion and resurrected. And many claim 12.25 as their birth day. Very interesting parallels from many continents.
I believe there was a Bar Jesus mentioned in the NT.
I love the find though, underwater archeaology is an exciting field.
Colour me unimpressed. Many people claimed to be the Messiah, which is all “Christ” means.
It’s like finding a football signed “for the Champs” and assuming it must have belonged to Bart Starr.
Could be the Holy Grail. Or not. It would be from early 1st century and someone could have engraved it after the Last Supper. Definitely more possible that this is the HG, than that BHO is the one!
I’m under the impression the greek word for magician or sorcerer is “magus”. I have no clue what “goistais” is ...
Oh please, this looks like the letters were carved into it last week, or a few minutes ago. It hardly seems the wood chips have been blown away. “By Christ the magician”, three-card monty and sawing a woman in half, pick a card—any card. Carve me another bowl about Moses and the bush, or Bush for that matter, but the media is giving this fake an undeserved 15 minutes.
Ya stole my thunder
Now I got nuthin pithy to say
bump cool article, at least add a keyword or two
But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the power of God that is called Great." And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. (Acts 8:11)
To a non-Christian, the miracles attributed to Jesus would have been magic, also.
Yes, but this one does not use the name of Jesus. It uses the term Christ, and ties it to magic, or perhaps, what we may refer to in our vernacular as miracles.
“Oh please, this looks like the letters were carved into it last week, or a few minutes ago. It hardly seems the wood chips have been blown away. “
I’m awed by your archeological expertise. You can tell that from one photo but the archeologists who have actually examined the bowl missed it entirely.?
Just look at it, the wood under the letters doesn’t seem exposed to any environment.
It’s also possible, however, that the “o” (which alone would mean “the”) should be read with the following word, so that the inscription may indicate that the bowl was donated by someone named Christ or Chrest, who may have belonged to a postulated religious group called “ogoistais.” It is known that some people of the time worshiped a god named “Osogo” or “Ogoa.”
The evidence at present is not sufficient to answer the question definitively. The inscription may refer to Christ, or it may not. It’s a very interesting find, but unlikely to have any impact on the Christian faith.
This is a ceramic bowl, not wooden.
I believe it translates to; “Warning - The coffee in this cup is so hot it may cause serious burns”
J.R.R. Tolkien talked for many years to C.S. Lewis about myth. What stuck in Lewis’ mind, especially as he found himself being pursuaded towards Christianity, was Tolkien’s belief that all myth was “truth breathed through silver” and all myths pointed to Jesus.
In Tolkien’s mind, it was like the world was trying to tell man what the truth was, and man kept putting into stories that he could understand. The myth became reality in Jesus, and that is why we can see so much of him throughout the myths of the world.
That is lovely; thanks.
o goistas is ancient greek for obama btw.
ACTS 8:9-13
But more likely a hoax.
Acts 5:34-39 is just as likely.
Yeah, I think that whole angle is pure bunk actually. Here's the thing. All of these pagan gods were born in remote antiquity in a halcyon era far away from historical times. They did not live in the historical period where eyewitnesses could write down what they did and said, like Christ did. And this is not only Christ's followers--He is pretty well attested in the extant secular and Jewish literature of the time period as well.
Plus some of these supposed "borrowings" from paganism are either completely twisted to fit the paradigm or are so generic as to not be all that surprising. Resurrection, for instance.
Also, don't discount the effect Christianity had on the *pagan* religions. People make the assumption that because it's pagan it predated Christianity. Not so. Paganism in different places shifted and changed and gobbled up ideas from other religions including Christianity. So, for instance, the festival of Sol Invictus was held to be on December 25th. But this cult was instituted by the Emperor Elagabalus in the early 3rd century, well after Christianity was already a known presence in Rome. And it was claimed by some within the Roman Church that the date of Dec. 25th had been verified in the census records at Rome. It's quite possible, though we may never be sure, that the Sun-worshippers stole the date from Christians and not the other way around.
Unfortunately, there's been a lot of bad theorizing out there by people who read to debunk instead of read to understand.
That's Latin I think.
My Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon has gohs, gohtos, (goes, goetos) "one who howls out enchantments, a sorceror, enchanter". I dunno where that "s" comes from though, unless it is some dialect besides Attic.
I see
DIACRHSTOU
DIACHRESTOU
Indicherebbe Gesù come praticante di "magia bianca"
"Dia Christou o Goistais", "da Cristo il mago": l'iscrizione, su un vaso ritrovato fra le rovine del Portus Magnus della città egiziana di Alessandria, sarebbe secondo gli archeologi il primo riferimento storico a Gesù, come pubblica il quotidiano spagnolo El Mundo. Secondo uno dei ricercatori, Franck Goddio, l'iscrizione potrebbe infatti riferirsi a Gesù in quanto praticante di "magia bianca", ovvero autore di guarigioni miracolose; tuttavia non è l'unica teoria in gioco riguardante il piccolo vaso, risalente al primo secolo avanti Cristo e che sarebbe stato utilizzato nel corso di riti divinatori: veniva riempito con un sottile strato d'olio, le cui increspature venivano interpretate dal "mago".
Di fatto, spiegano gli archeologi, il nome "Christou" potrebbe indicare sia il celebrante del rito sia colui al quale questi si richiamava per legittimare i suoi presunti poteri.
Le acque del Mediterraneo hanno restituito un antico vaso proveniente dall’Asia Minore e datato I secolo a.C.. Il reperto reca un’iscrizione in greco: “Dia Christou o goistais”.
La scritta risalirebbe a prima del 50 d.C. e secondo gli studiosi potrebbe essere tradotta: “Per Cristo il mago”. L’affascinante ipotesi dell’archeologo francese Franck Goddio è che si tratti del più antico riferimento a Gesù mai ritrovato. «Cristo era considerato il più grande esponente della magia bianca» ha detto Goddio al quotidiano spagnolo «El Mundo».
There. That ought to clear things up.
Now even in the ancient days there was some confusion between these two close-sounding words. But this inscription is NOT necessarily a reference to Christ.
Good point. Suetonius has “Chrestus” as a Latin transliteration—apparently of Christos—but he may have been confused. It’s harder to imagine a native Greek speaker making that same mistake, unless the sound change in question was dialectal.
In those days multilingualism, was very common. Anyone involved in commerce spoke Greek, if the were Roman officials they spoke Latin. Mariners from Alexandria likely spoke Coptic and those based in the port of Caesarea also spoke Aramaic and possibly Hebrew. Those from Damascus also spoke Syriac and those from Lebanon spoke Punic. It would not be uncommon for someone not fluent in a language to inscribe something in that language if it was meant to be read by many others.
Cheers!
Honestly now, do you really think you can look at one photo and tell better than dozens or even hundreds of experts who have examined it in person? I think not.
Yes, magus (μάγος) is correct.
There doesn't seem to be any online reference to "goistais" aside from stories related to this find.
:’) that’s what I wuz shootin’ fer.
Thanks to all who have replied, great comments!
La scritta e molto interesante.
“Goeteia” is the usual word for malicious sorcery or witchcraft:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia
Everyone knows that this issue of Jesus being nothing more than a rural magician was exhaustively explored and definitively settled in the movie “the Silver Chalice” starring Jack Palance as Simon, an evil aspiring magician determined to undermine the Christian cult.
Paul Newman played a gullible sexy young hunk and Virginia Mayo played a non-virginia.
I guess someone must have held the Mayo, huh?
“La scritta e molto interesante.”
Grazie per le sue gentili parole.
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