Posted on 10/21/2008 8:28:11 PM PDT by Soliton
“Please name a culture in which murder isn’t illegal”
Guess you don’t watch the news much.
China, Russia, Iran...shall I keep going?
You really didn’t have to write all of that. I was merely pointing out that early in the Bible God commanded men to kill in a brutal way for all kinds of things (tribal brutality). In the end, it was turn the other cheek and do unto others.
God evolved.
Murder is illegal in China, and Russia, and Iran, so yes keep going.
“If you don’t want to debate my points, why respond?”
Because it’s completely pointless. You are right no matter what - ever.
You push your Secular agenda, and piss on every Christian here who defends their faith.
You aren’t being cute, and you should be ashamed of yourself. You should go push this garbage at DU; they love this stuff.
An attitude like that is actually counter-productive to one's survival. One of the greatest advantages humans have in terms of survival is our ability to cooperate. A prehistoric human was not a terribly impressive animal compared to many of the other species in his environment. But a group of humans, working together, could ensure their survival much more reliably. This also includes taking care of the sick, wounded and old in your group because the expectation is that they will do the same for you, if need be.
There is some logic to pretending to be honest, etc. to fool the gullible, but you can’t actually justify being honest if it comes at any ultimate personal expense. After all, no God means that you’re nothing but recycled dung with a very short shelf life.
From a purely self-interested point of view, it makes more sense to live in a society that punishes cheating and fraud. That is why even pre- and non-Christian societies punish people for breaking agreements or committing fraud.
It doesn't take belief in the Christian god to come to the conclusion that certain behaviors are counter-productive and should be punished, regardless of whether or not a divine being exists.
>You really didn’t have to write all of that.
Sure I did.
>I was merely pointing out that early in the Bible God commanded men to kill in a brutal way for all kinds of things (tribal brutality).
There IS such a thing as consequences for your actions.
>In the end, it was turn the other cheek and do unto others.
This is true. But don’t confuse “turn the other cheek” with “Take it in the @$$!!” The two are not the same.
>God evolved.
Did He? I make the case that no, he doesn’t. How we interact with Him does, because that’s what a relationship is about. Just look at the relationship between yourself and your parents, yourself and your childhood friends... if they treat you differently as you mature and your relationship changes, then why would you think that a relationship with God should be any different?
Sparta lasted far longer than any culture now in existence. And the Romans and Egyptians certainly lasted a very long time. Their mantra was to ruthlessly kill their enemies and enslave the survivors.
What do you mean by Spartan culture and when did it exist. You are not even close.
Look it up if you don't know what it was. It lasted for about 700 years roughly 700 B.C to 0 B.C. with basicly the same value system. What culture today, outside of possibly a few isolated stone age tribes have endured that long with the same morals and practices?
By the way, the “form of the Golden Rule” to which you refer is summed up as, “Help those that will help me. Protect my family. Treat outsiders as enemies to be killed or enslaved.”
Chinese, Iranian, Western, Indian
That's an oversimplification. There were lots of ways to live comfortably within the Roman Empire. Just think of the Israelites in Jesus' time--they weren't all dead or slaves. And pretty much any occupying army will kill its enemies--that's hardly a defining characteristic of Rome.
You are ignorant of history.
All of those cultures have changed far more in 700 years than the Spartans did.
The Chinese are no more like their ancestors of 1200 AD than we are. The fact that they still have slanted eyes and live in the same place does not define them as being the same culture. If you so losely define culture as that, then the Spartans still exist.
There is no underlying human value system that is the same as Christianity.
If there is no God (no afterlife), then there is no point in self-sacrifice. Domination is king. And this has been the practice through most all of human existence. Even today.
I infer that you like the Christian value system, just not Christ. Great, thanks for tagging along, but don't pretend that its natural. All of history shows otherwise.
Tribal law exists to prevent clan warfare (dangerous to the law makers) not to seek justice. Any application of the Golden Rule stops at the edge of the village and perhaps at the edge of the hut.
Yes there is, but you apparently can't understand selflesness
Aspects of the Spartan culture exist. Sparta does not. Sparta's culture evolved over the centuries like all cultures do. It ended in 188 B.C.
Western culture began in ancient Greece. There and in the Roman civilization it developed until the start of the Middle Ages when it largely vanished from Europe. During the Middle Ages, Western culture resided, instead, in the Arab world to a modest degree. Then the rediscovery of Western culture in Europe in the Late Middle Ages prompted the Renaissance. Western culture’s continuing development then led to the Scientific Revolution, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, the Industrial Revolution and to what is considered today as modern, advanced civilization. Where Western Culture Is Today, Western culture has at least some presence in nearly all nations of the world. It does not currently exist, however, anywhere in a perfect and complete form. Wherever Western culture exists, it is at least partially mixed—and often largely mixed—with non-Western culture. (Nonwestern culture is derived from mysticism or subjectivism, not reason. Consequently, it is characterized essentially by anti-individualism, self-sacrifice, tyranny, a hostility or indifference to economic progress, science and technology, and by the view that humanity is depraved and/or helpless.)[1] Western culture currently dominates in many Western and Central European nations and several nations settled by European descendants, especially the United States. http://www.westerncultureglobal.org/what-is-western-culture.html#b1
Then how do explain the high-minded Romans sending their young to summer in Sparta well into the 100's A.D., so that they might better understand the nature of a true Spartan life style?
I've got a higher degree in History (big mistake that it was), so I don't really need a recap from a second rate website http://www.westerncultureglobal.org/what-is-western-culture.html about what Western Civ is and isn't.
Ancient civilizations are much romanticized. In fact, the origin of the word "roman-ticized" is to describe people doing precisely what you are doing.
You would not have found Athens so high minded had you been one of their competing city states, and I highly doubt that Roman thought would have struck you as the Golden Rule, if you were in a province that resisted or failed to pony up the requisite number of slaves.
So educate me. You said "[the Romans'] mantra was to ruthlessly kill their enemies and enslave the survivors." That sounds like those were the only two choices. And yet Gauls became citizens and even senators. How did fit with the Roman "mantra"?
Did you mean:
To crush your enemies -- See them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
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