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Scholar: The Essenes, Dead Sea Scroll 'authors,' never existed
Haaretz.com ^ | Mar 13, 2009

Posted on 03/13/2009 9:53:56 PM PDT by rdl6989

Scholarship suggesting the existence of the Essenes, a religious Jewish group that lived in the Judea before the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, is wrong, according to Prof. Rachel Elior, whose study on the subject will be released soon.

Elior blasts the predominant opinion of Dead Sea Scrolls scholars that the Essenes had written the scrolls in Qumran, claiming instead that they were written by ousted Temple priests in Jerusalem.

"Sixty years of research have been wasted trying to find the Essenes in the scrolls. But they didn't exist, they were invented by [Jewish-Roman historian] Josephus. It's a history of errors which is simply nonsense," she said.

In his book "The Jewish War," Flavius Josephus describes the Essenes as an ascetic, mystical religious sect that lived in abstinence from worldly pleasures, including sex.

The Essenes are commonly believed to have written the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered in a Qumran cave in 1947 and are considered the most significant archaeological discovery of the past century.

(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: deadseascrolls; epigraphyandlanguage; essenes; falseprophets; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; mideast; qumran

1 posted on 03/13/2009 9:53:56 PM PDT by rdl6989
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To: SunkenCiv

Ping


2 posted on 03/13/2009 9:54:18 PM PDT by rdl6989
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To: rdl6989

CE = A.D.


3 posted on 03/13/2009 9:56:13 PM PDT by SecAmndmt (Arm yourselves!)
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To: rdl6989

sounds like another academic battle is about to begin.


4 posted on 03/13/2009 9:57:27 PM PDT by screaming eagle2
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To: screaming eagle2

Yes it sure does.


5 posted on 03/13/2009 9:59:49 PM PDT by rdl6989
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To: rdl6989

Hmmm..., that’s really odd, because over in Israel, they’re doing archeological digs in an area that was isolated and had a thriving community and they’ve traced the Dead Sea Scrolls (the material) which were found in caves — to the buried bones of the animals that the skins came from (from DNA testing).

So, they’ve linked up the Dead Sea Scrolls, to a specific place that they are doing archeological digs and it shows that it was an isolated but a thriving community.

What this guy is saying just doesn’t make any sense at all, especially when the very material was traced to the bones buried at this site where there was a thriving community...


6 posted on 03/13/2009 10:04:33 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: rdl6989

Bad news for crossword constructors.


7 posted on 03/13/2009 10:09:39 PM PDT by drubyfive
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To: screaming eagle2
sounds like another academic battle is about to begin. <>LOL! Au contrary, sounds like grant-money dispersal time.


8 posted on 03/13/2009 10:39:55 PM PDT by yankeedame ("Oh, I can take it but I'd much rather dish it out.")
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To: rdl6989
...an ascetic, mystical religious sect that lived in abstinence from worldly pleasures, including sex.

That should have clued everyone in right there.

9 posted on 03/13/2009 11:07:49 PM PDT by Force of Truth (Sarah Palin in 2012!!!!!! WOOOHOOOOO!!!!!!!!!)
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To: rdl6989

Well, I always had my doubts once I saw those superscripted th’s in the dead sea scrolls.


10 posted on 03/13/2009 11:10:15 PM PDT by Jeremiah2
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To: rdl6989

Qumran Cave 6 with Wadi Qumran in background.


11 posted on 03/13/2009 11:15:45 PM PDT by Daaave ("Fear not, for I am with thee.")
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To: rdl6989

So Josephus just made up an entire sect? To what conceivable end?


12 posted on 03/13/2009 11:23:40 PM PDT by Philo-Junius ((One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.))
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To: SecAmndmt

“CE = A.D.”

When people use the term with me, I say, “you mean ‘Christian Era.’” And, BCE is “Before Christian Era.” It drives the pc folks nuts.


13 posted on 03/14/2009 12:54:59 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: rdl6989; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; ...

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Thanks rdl6989! I have a feeling (haven't looked yet, clicked reply to from my comments screen) that this topic is going to be a knock down drag out. :')

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

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· The Archaeology Channel · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·


14 posted on 03/14/2009 5:40:21 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: SunkenCiv
Didn't you just post one where they found graves of women near thee ancient Essene fortress?
15 posted on 03/14/2009 5:43:37 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: rdl6989
"Sixty years of research have been wasted trying to find the Essenes in the scrolls. But they didn't exist, they were invented by [Jewish-Roman historian] Josephus. It's a history of errors which is simply nonsense," she said.
Yep, that Josephus was a real prankster.

I understand he worked part time as a Stand Up Comic too.
His stage name was Jerryphus Seinfeldus

16 posted on 03/14/2009 5:51:48 AM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Philo-Junius
"So Josephus just made up an entire sect? To what conceivable end?"

My exact first thought. So...what else did he make-up?

17 posted on 03/14/2009 7:51:44 AM PDT by blam
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To: xcamel
Qumran. :') Googling qumran and essenes (separately) for this site turned up little, or at least, the titles didn't look like what I sought. Here's some stuff off the hard drive.

web archive link
Radiocarbon Dating of Dead Sea Scrolls Confirm Paleographic Dates
by Donna Kent
Carbon-14 dating of milligram samples taken from ragged edges of manuscript margins determined the ages of the scrolls to range from the third century B.C.E. (Before Common Era) to 68 C.E., nearly 2,000 years ago. These dates support earlier paleographic research, which estimated the ages of the scrolls by analyzing the handwriting styles, materials, and formatting of the manuscripts.
UA confirms Dead Sea Scrolls predate Christianity
by Jim Erickson
"A commentary on the first two chapters of the biblical Book of Habakkuk was one of the 18 texts dated at the UA lab. 'The fact that this particular scroll (the Habakkuk commentary) dates to before the Christian era tends to eliminate the possibility that a follower of Christ could have written it,' Jull said yesterday. There is a 95 percent probability that the parchment from the Habakkuk commentary dates to between 150 B.C. and 5 B.C., Jull said. 'Some of the papyrus samples bear exact written dates within the text itself. These dates match those determined by the carbon-14 measurements,' the Israel Antiquities Authority stated in a news release. 'The reliability of paleography as a dating method is thus confirmed.'"
Newly Discovered Tunnel May Once Have Carried Dead Sea Scrolls
by Norman Golb
Wednesday October 24, 2007
Reports have described the discovery, by a team led by Ronny Reich and Eli Shukron, of an "escape hatch" or "drainage tunnel" under the main street of ancient Jerusalem... two weeks earlier, archaeologists discovered the tunnel while searching for the city's main road. Shukron is quoted as saying that workmen engaged in the search "happened upon a small drainage channel that led to the discovery of the massive tunnel." The same report states that "the walls of the tunnel ... reach a height of 10 feet in some places," and a photograph of the site would appear to confirm that... According to the large group of stories based on the AP report, "Archaeologists think the tunnel leads to the Kidron River, which empties into the Dead Sea." The Nahal (or Wadi) Qidron does indeed lead eastward to the sea, but about halfway toward that body of water it bifurcates, the one main branch, under the same name, continuing east-southeast to the sea -- while the other bends slightly northward and, bearing the name of Nahal (or Wadi) Qumran, leads to Khirbet Qumran and was the main source feeding the large water-reservoirs that distinguish this site. The report of the Israel Antiquities Authority, focusing on the items found in the tunnel, states: "pottery shards ... and coins from the end of the Second Temple period, prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in ... 70 C.E., were discovered in the channel."
The Qumran Quandary
by Ziv Hellman
Jerusalem Report
Issue 8, August 4, 2008
Archaeological digs at Qumran and surrounding settlements have revealed not an isolated, penurious community, but in some respects a rather flourishing one, which in the Second Temple period contained installations for blacksmithing and tanning and what seems to be an immense pottery factory. The residents there traded with other settlements, kept a stable, grew crops and raised sheep. Based on theories that the residents lived a communal lifestyle, some have termed it "the first kibbutz," complete with agriculture, light industry, a communal dining room and a common treasury - a cache of hundreds of silver coins was found on the site.
The Enigma of Qumran
[debate transcript, 1998]
The participants in this discussion, all field archaeologists, are Joseph (Yossi) Patrich, associate professor of archaeology at the University of Haifa; Hanan Eshel, senior lecturer in archaeology at Hebrew University and Bar-Ilan University; Yizhar Hirschfeld, lecturer of classical archaeology at Hebrew University; and Jodi Magness, associate professor of classical and Near Eastern archaeology at Tufts University. BAR editor Hershel Shanks moderates the discussion, which was held in Jerusalem last summer.
Find a graveyard, assume it's filled with Essenes, use that to prove the Essenes had a community, have lunch.
Ancient Graves Found at Qumran
by Steve Weizman
Grave robbers, who presumably saw the archaeologists looking around the area last year, had already plundered the site by the time the formal dig began. Richard Freund of the University of Hartford said the latest discovery challenges previous assumptions about the community and its cemetery of 1,178 graves. The dig's co-director, Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi, was cautious in characterizing the coffin's occupant. "The only thing we can be certain of is that he was a very affluent man," he said.
and here's something kinda nutty:
Scribal Marks in the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Jay C. Treat
Recent discussion on Orion interested me in the issue of Chinese characters in the Dead Sea Scrolls. My attention focused particularly on the two symbols that were first associated with Chinese: the symbol in the bottom right margin of 1QS column 7 and the symbol in the right margin of 1QS column 9, line 3. In 1990, Victor Mair cautiously compared and contrasted these two symbols with the Chinese character "ti"... Looking at John Trever's published photographs of 1QS, my impression was that these two symbols were elaborated paragraphos marks (perhaps even coronis marks), used to separate sense units. The use of the paragraphos and coronis in Greek manuscripts is introduced in Turner (1971).

18 posted on 03/14/2009 8:06:33 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: xcamel

okay, lots more here:
http://freerepublic.com/tag/essenes/index

didn’t look here or here:
http://freerepublic.com/tag/qumran/index
http://freerepublic.com/tag/deadseascrolls/index


19 posted on 03/14/2009 8:08:14 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: rdl6989

nuts, we were doing so well here, too...

Scholar: The Essenes, Dead Sea Scroll ‘authors,’ never existed
Ofri Ilani | March 13th, 2009
Posted on 03/13/2009 8:18:50 AM PDT by TaraP
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2205869/posts


20 posted on 03/14/2009 8:16:27 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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more about the Chinese thing:

The Chinese connection (to the Dead Sea Scrolls)
The Star | Nov. 4, 2006 | NEIL ALTMAN
Posted on 11/30/2006 8:40:52 PM PST by John Philoponus
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1746758/posts

Challenging History: The Dead Sea Scrolls
The Evening Bulletin [PA] | 25 September, 2007 | Neil Altman
Posted on 09/25/2007 4:48:34 PM PDT by brityank
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1902099/posts


21 posted on 03/14/2009 8:21:18 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: blam

With what hope of success would Josephus have perpetuated this fraud? He was writing journalism, not history; there would have been thousands of Jews and other locals who would have heard of his account and said, “Essenes? What on earth is he talking about?”

He would only have immediately discredited himself by trying to perpetuate a fraud a million people could have immediately unveiled.

Now a scholastic fraud 2,000 years later, on the other hand...


22 posted on 03/14/2009 8:25:06 AM PDT by Philo-Junius ((One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.))
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To: rdl6989

Clearly there was a movement represented by the Dead Sea Scrolls, started by a “teacher of righteousness”, who apparently objected to one of the Hasmonean Chief Priests, so I don’t see why it is inconsistent to say that a group founded perhaps by a renegade priest wrote the dead sea scrolls.


23 posted on 03/14/2009 1:21:17 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: SunkenCiv

That’s funny, I did a search and nothing came up. I even searched the keywored essenes and nothing recent was posted. :D


24 posted on 03/14/2009 9:04:33 PM PDT by rdl6989
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To: Star Traveler

Think Babtists...... they split up all the time.

It is reasonable to assume that a group of Jerusalem priests split off and became Essenes at the new community of Qumran.


25 posted on 03/15/2009 5:18:01 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . John Galt hell !...... where is Francisco dÂ’Anconia)
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To: bert

It sounded like he was saying that there was no such thing as a group called the Essenes...


26 posted on 03/15/2009 11:28:49 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: rdl6989

...and I don’t think we’re getting our money’s worth out of Google search lately. Used to work great, now I’m not too sure.


27 posted on 03/15/2009 4:38:33 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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In his book "The Jewish War," Flavius Josephus describes the Essenes as an ascetic, mystical religious sect that lived in abstinence from worldly pleasures, including sex. The Essenes are commonly believed to have written the Dead Sea Scrolls...
...by some people, yeah.

The problem I see with this author/paper is that the accuracy of Josephus (in this case, about the existence of a bunch of cave-dwelling ascetics called the Essenes) doesn't have anything much to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls, which apparently were hidden just the one time and never gone back for, and includes the Copper Scroll, which describes the hiding places of various items of value, appears to be obviously stuff from the Temple. Given the dating of the scrolls themselves (info that wasn't available to the modern individual who cooked up the Essenes=scroll writers), it seems settled that the cache of scrolls came from the Herodian temple during the Roman War.

This equating Josephus' Essenes with the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls isn't in Josephus, and isn't even in the scrolls' text, but has a modern origin. One the one hand we have people who fanatically defend this identification, and on the other we have the author of the claims described in the topic message. Both proceed from the same false premise.
28 posted on 03/15/2009 4:47:48 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: SunkenCiv
and I don’t think we’re getting our money’s worth out of Google search lately. Used to work great, now I’m not too sure.

Agreed!

29 posted on 03/15/2009 9:38:34 PM PDT by rdl6989
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To: SecAmndmt
"CE = A.D."

I loath that politically correct BCE/CE crap. It's BC and AD, you bedwetting, God-denying pansies. I refuse to use those terms. I say BC and AD.
30 posted on 03/15/2009 10:12:56 PM PDT by DesScorp
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To: yankeedame

Well,....that too.


31 posted on 03/18/2009 11:50:23 PM PDT by screaming eagle2
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