Skip to comments.Vanity - question for creationists from a Christian who believes in evolution
Posted on 04/04/2009 1:47:03 AM PDT by gondramB
I'd like to ask. I promise I don't mean this in an unkind way. I would really like to know.
Suppose the Freepers who believe that humans were created in their current form by God (whether 6,000 years ago or much longer)....
Suppose you became convinced that instead man had developed from lower organisms over billions of years.
Would that have to change any other core beliefs - that God directed man, The God came to Abraham and chose his children; that God sent us His son, that we are to follow the teachings of Jesus - particularly that we are to love the lord and love each other and ask forgiveness in his Son's name when we do wrong?
And so I'd like to ask and to understand.
Your response is one of those I would value.
Ultimately I say yes.
I guess for each individual the answer depends on where they are at that time.
“I’d like to ask. I promise I don’t mean this in an unkind way. I would really like to know.”
You go first — When you know you are just one or two heart beats away from the end of your life and you are taking your last breaths, and you know the end is near — Who are you praying to, “an organism or to God?”
I would suggest that you really look at what is presented as evidence once again. And along with that a study of the men who presented the so called evidence.
First of all the core belief that the earth was created 6000 years ago is totally erroneous. The SECOND EARTH AGE was RECREATED 6000 years ago. The first earth age was millions of years old as Science has proved. It was destroyed at Satan’s rebellion by a flood which was universal. Man was created on the 6th day and Adam and Eve were created on the 8th day. Take your brains out of the Christian box and read the Scriptures and THINK!!!
The problem with that theory is: If you are a believer of God and Jesus Christ, evolution would nullify some KEY points of the Bible.
The Bible says that death came into the world through Adam’s sin. If Adam evolved, death would have to have occurred already. -Which nullifies the sin issue making Jesus’ death on the cross as atonement for sin useless.
This is one reason the evolutionists strive SO hard to convince us. If evolution is the truth, then the Bible is false.
>>You go first When you know you are just one or two heart beats away from the end of your life and you are taking your last breaths, and you know the end is near Who are you praying to, an organism or to God?<<
I don’t mind going first.
I am blessed to have had a personal experience with God and while I have many problems in life doubt about God is not one of them.
What I am trying to ask in this vanity is that for people who think that man was first on this planet in his current form - would it really change anything if it turned out that biologically he had come from lower life forms? Wouldn’t God still be God with the same love and wouldn’t man still have the same goals?
>>Ultimately I say yes.
I guess for each individual the answer depends on where they are at that time.<<
I do think I know what you mean by “where they are at that time” I know God came to me at the very moment I was open.
And in the end that is their crusade
I’ve never had a problem with it either way. I don’t believe in the young Earth theory but I also do not believe in neo-atheist interpretation of evolution nor in many of the nonscientific and nearly wholly made of stories that some craft around remnants of bone. Science does not need to be in conflict with religion. It wasn’t for Newton, Galileo, Copernicus and many others. Many like to cast the debate involving the particulars of evolution and creation in simpleton terms. I think that Science benefits from debate. It spurs a challenge to those who are convinced they have the right hypothesis and that is always a good thing because history shows that conventional wisdom whether scientific or not is very often wrong.
>>Suppose you became convinced that instead man had developed from lower organisms over billions of years
I meant it as a hypothetical - suppose that in the future some evidence was unearthed that convinced you that man had in fact developed rather than been created as is.
>>First of all the core belief that the earth was created 6000 years ago is totally erroneous. The SECOND EARTH AGE was RECREATED 6000 years ago. The first earth age was millions of years old as Science has proved. It was destroyed at Satans rebellion by a flood which was universal. Man was created on the 6th day and Adam and Eve were created on the 8th day. Take your brains out of the Christian box and read the Scriptures and THINK!!!<<
I wasn’t trying to settle the actual age in this vanity but to ask a hypothetical question. In other threads I enjoy talking about the actual science.
Well, IMO, you are the person that can answer that question for yourself. Faith is very personal.
>>The problem with that theory is: If you are a believer of God and Jesus Christ, evolution would nullify some KEY points of the Bible.
The Bible says that death came into the world through Adams sin. If Adam evolved, death would have to have occurred already. -Which nullifies the sin issue making Jesus death on the cross as atonement for sin useless.
This is one reason the evolutionists strive SO hard to convince us. If evolution is the truth, then the Bible is false.<<
Agreed that this hypothetical would mean the creation story would have to be a parable or God’s way of explaining to early people who did not yet have modern math and science.
I’m wondering if that would have to invalidate all else or could creationists keep their core belief in the God of Abraham and his Son.
>>Science does not need to be in conflict with religion.<<
I’d go so far to say that since I know God is real and that science is what we can observe and learn that that when they appear to be in conflict it is likely because there is something we have not figured out yet.
>>Well, IMO, you are the person that can answer that question for yourself. Faith is very personal.<<
For myself, yes I can answer. And faith if personal. I certainly am not going press anyone who doesn’t want to answer. But if Freepers who believe in creation of man as-is are willing to share then I would like to listen.
“But if Freepers who believe in creation of man as-is are willing to share then I would like to listen.”
“Suppose you became convinced that instead man had developed from lower organisms over billions of years”
First of all I would suggest you at least review the creationist evidence. The vast majority of people have not, enthralled by what the left-lib media / education establishment has told them. It is NOT as one-way as you have been led to believe. I have a science degree and am working on my 2nd.
Second I don’t think it’s helpful to think of it in that way. Some people like to set up the credibility of the Bible based on this or that, and I don’t think we’re told that’s a good thing to do.
The most important thing to know is that evolution is a doctrine, with no evidence, a belief of a religion that has various guises and is often referred to as “humanism”.
But that’s far from the only issue for most people who don’t believe in creation. The Bible says people lived to be ~900 years before the flood. This is not our experience today, and so most people who don’t believe in creation also say that’s not true. But somehow they forget that before the flood there were elk with a 16ft antler span, there were wooly rhinos, 16ft long turtles, 80ft sharks, reptiles that lived for hundreds of years and never stopped growing just like their cousins today, so got huge. There are many skeletons of 12ft tall people found. This is also outside our experience, and we would consider crazy unless we had actually dug up the fossils & seen them. So these things that you consider impossible are not as impossible as you think. Our world is very samey and unchanging today. It was not always that way.
As a science student, I can understand your question. All I can say is dig deeper. Take an anatomy class and try to figure out how humans evolved (you can audit the class for free). It is statistically unfathomable. Just take the immune system and look deeply into it, mathematically, there aren’t enough years. The x chromosome that no one can live without, how did that happen? Dig deeply and you will find the hand of God.
I do not believe in evolution. Here on FR, you will find rabid evolutionists pushing their Nietzsche/ Darwin beliefs like a drug. This started with the Garden of Eden and the apple. The desire to know things and be like God. I am not saying you should not thirst for knowledge, but I am saying to avoid the temptation to think your knowledge base has outgrown God. Praying for your guidance.
I speak only for myself.
My understanding of scripture, particularly the Torah, is that it is a multi-layered writing, of which the literal story of creation is only the simplest level.
Deeper reading into the Torah reveals understanding that makes the literal accuracy of the simple story unimportant. Remember that the author is writing from a perspective outside of time.
That being said, evolution as it is presented by Darwin’s followers, is an unacceptable belief, simply because it is the most inelegant, least likely and most improbable accounting for what we see in our world.
In addition to not passing the smell test, it is (despite what its adherents claim) not a real theory, because it is not demonstrable or repeatable.
People believing in a six day creation look far less silly than people believing in spontaneous punctuated equilibrium.
The Bible exists more for edification than explanation. If you are a real student of science, I would guess that there are things about evolutionary “theory” that make you at least uneasy.
That is a danger, and I see it coming out of the evo-atheists all the time
I have a hard time reconciling that with Gen 2:7 “the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. “
Age of the earth and 6 day creation aside, Scripture is so clear about God creating man as a separate act of creation, as with the other forms of life being created.
More later when I can think a little more clearly. This is too early for me.....
So true man.
If evolution is true then Jesus was either wrong or a liar and therefor, not the unblemished Lamb who was able to take away our sins.
If you believe in evolution, you cannot turn around and say that you believe that Jesus is the Savior.
They are mutually exclusive.
> I’ve never had that problem because I was a science student before I became a Christian and it has never seemed a conflict.
I am in much the same boat as you, FRiend — tho’ I got there in a different way. I started out as a committed Christian (and so remain), then I visited Drumheller Alberta and saw and touched the dinosaur bones there. That blew away the 6,000 timeframe year idea permanently and forever.
Then I moved to New Zealand and was confronted by The Ultimate Problem that proves at least part of the Evolutionary theory beyond a shadow of all reasonable doubt: how did New Zealand’s flightless birds, the weta and the tuatara come to be found only here and nowhere else?
The two theories are not incompatible. Evolution explains how things happened and suggests a likely timeframe, and Creation explains Who was responsible for making things happen, and His Divine Purpose for making these things happen.
But what is patently and provably false is that Creation took 6,000 years only and without the evolutionary process. I’d even go a step further and confidently assert that either the Great Flood did not cover the entire globe, or Noah’s Ark had remarkable navigational capabilities and modern petrol engines, or at the very least steam power and a regular series of coaling stations between Turkey and the South Pacific. It would also need to have been capable of navigating either the Cape of Good Hope or the Cape Horn intact: once on the way here, and once on the way back.
Science is and always has been the Bible Scholar’s best friend. We are foolish to kick against the pricks.
I do not understand it, myself. They think they “have arrived”. If they just took a moment to think about the things they don’t know, like the vastness of the ocean depths. Or how about they just erase everything from their knowledge base that is “theory”. Just have an honest moment with themselves and erase everything that is not verifiable in a laboratory today. But they are consumed with kicking out God because they love their sin much much more. They are not interested in truly serving others, only themselves and a select few. These are the people who brought us abortion.
> You go first When you know you are just one or two heart beats away from the end of your life and you are taking your last breaths, and you know the end is near Who are you praying to, an organism or to God?
Naturally, as a Christian who also believes in Evolution, I’d pray to God. The provable fact that God used the Evolutionary process to create Creation does absolutely nothing to the necessity and fact of the existence of God Himself.
Otherwise it is necessary to believe that Evolution happened as a result of random and improbable events: not impossible, because given enough time any random event can cause any random result, but provably Evolution didn’t happen by random chance.
Years ago I could see that point of view until I really looked at what they were presenting as evidence
But why would I become convinced of that? That's like asking, what "would happen if you became a totally different person than who you are today?" I don't know that such a thing can be answered.
> Years ago I could see that point of view until I really looked at what they were presenting as evidence
Much of what is used to prove Evolution is silly, I will grant. But The Question has yet to be answered to my satisfaction: New Zealand’s flightless birds cannot fly, neither can they swim. Neither can the Tuatara, which is a reptile tho’ not a lizard (the last of the Dinosaurs). Neither can the Weta. Given that Noah’s Flood covered the entire earth, and given that New Zealand is in the middle of the South Pacific about as far from Mt Ararat as one can possibly get while still being on this same planet, how did these animals get to New Zealand: they are found here, and nowhere else on this planet?
No Creationist has been able to answer that question satisfactorily, without compromising the Genesis record.
You can't believe in evolution and believe the bible is a true document of the Word of God.
If you cling to evolution, you must let go of God.
Study the doctrines of the anthropology of man. The materialist perspective is also closely associated with Montanism, Federalism, Gnosticism, and denial of the human soul or spirit as discernible from physical entities.
Dualism, advances to recognize the Body and the Soul, a condition which Scripture very well recognizes and identifies with the natural man.
The trichotomous perspective of anthropology, discerns a body, soul, and a human spirit as being the man created in God’s image.
So it is possible to be Christian and be a scientist who studies the creation, observes physical laws, and rationally uses that knowledge in the exercise of his gifts. On the contrary, there are those who identify science with a materialist perspective, denying the separate existence of souls or spirit.
This addresses the topic of scientific creationism, as opposed to theologic creationism. Theologic creationism, further explores and discerns the origin of human life of the soul.
Tertullian and the Montanists held a position considered heretical by Aquinas and Jerome, that souls have always existed and are transferred to the human body by materialist mechanisms in the semen, also known as a Seminal perspective of the origin of life. Tertullian therefore promoting the perspective of transfer of a soul, coined the term Traducianism or transfer of the soul.
The Traducian view counters the Federal view of the origin of human life. The Federal view, based upon Rom 5 and 1stCor15, holds that Adam was the Federal base of guilt in the human race and the natural man is imputed with the same guilt from Adam at the point of birth of each human, namely at the emission from the womb, not at conception. This is also closely associated with the theological creationist perspective.
> The existence of unique species is a better argument for special creation than spontaneous evolution.
OK, go for it — I’m all ears. How did these animals get here, in New Zealand?
There is another important aspect when studying this topic.
It boils down to primal causes and the object upon which one’s faith is actually devoted.
Is the object of faith, that which God Himself has provided for salvation or is it His Creation?
Some in our generation have been trained to place a higher priority upon what we can judge ourselves independent of any other source, instead of placing faith in Christ first and accepting His Word. Attempting to use reason as an arbiter of faith, begs the question. Either our faith in through Christ or in something other than Him.
It’s been said that all one needs is a smidgen more faith, than no faith whatsoever, to have a saving faith. Anything added to faith alone in Christ alone, voids that faith as a saving faith. Once saved, God performs His work and we are always saved, though continually sanctified only as we remain in fellowship with Him.
I have no idea.
You are the one stating that this proves evolution.
So, how did these animals evolve in New Zealand and nowhere else?
If Genesis had described the creation of man in the way you posit, everything else that follows from God loving man, man’s sin and rebellion, and Christ’s death would be true. But Genesis describes man as being more or less directly “hand-made” by God. No evolutionary antecedents! God breathed life directly into man’s nostrils. he became a living soul.
The described previous creation “cycles” paints God as being a bit more stand offish, “Let the Earth bring forth...” and so on implying Divine command and imputed power with matter and energy rippling, crackling and “bringing forth” in response to God’s word! It could be argued it took a long time for some of these commands to “bring forth” as it were.
Yet you asked about the creation of man in possible relation to previous evolutionary antecedents. Genesis doesn’t allow you that kind of wiggle room.God’s relationship with man was intimate and unique, he was given tasks to tend the Garden of Eden and to name the aninmals.
God had a personal and even emotional stake in his interations with Adam. The events describing Adam and Eve and the introduction of sin into the world directly lead, thru some thousands of years, to the coming of Christ the King of YOUR salvation(you did describe your self a Christian).
If anything, there has been devolution for as you ought to have learned by now what Paul says”The whole of creation groans under a curse as in labor” that curse being sin! Now note what he says...”the whole of creation” meaning Earth, planets, stars,galaxies, everything!
Now God will lift that curse someday and all matter and creation will express the maximum of their designed capabilities, including man!(”If a man dies before 100 years old, he will be said to have been cursed” as the Old Testament says) You think the giant redwoods are actually expressing their total potentials; well perhaps they are in this present diseased matrix of matter/energy we call creation. Just think of what they’ll be like when God lifts the curse of sin and death off of the universe!
So is thinking.
The arrogant are easily offended, then react when their thinking is frustrated by the thought of another not matching their perspective.
It is simple. The 'god' of evolution is not the same Heavenly Father that predestined Abraham and his children. A person cannot serve two masters.
Written by a modern Christian who is a scientist, rather than by Moses recording the oral history of the same event, this might read: "By guiding the process of evolution over millions of years, the LORD God formed the man from the same elements as He used for the rest of creation and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." I don't see a conflict. The Bible tells what God did, while those wo research evolution objectively hope to figure out something of how God did it. Science can be another way of appreciating God's work.
Reminds me of the time in history future, when a scientist exclaims to God that they had found methods to create life, therefore didn't need God any further. In order to prove their abilities, they challenged God to a test to show Him they didn't need Him any longer.
God allowed their challenge and they proceeded to begin to make life. The scientist proceeded to gather some organic compounds, some tools and set them on the table, when God interrupted them, stating, "Not so fast, you have to create your own!"
any belief in evolution calls Genesis a lie
Creation is why we wear clothes
creation is why Jesus had to die for sin, if we evolved, there was no creation, there was no special person, Adam created first, nor was there Eve, so, the reason Jesus came to die for sin is a lie
Creation tells us the order of events, the creation of the Earth first, the sun days later, evolution calls that a lie
Go back to the Bible, write down the order of events in Genesis, and see for yourself that evolution doesn’t agree with any of them
10. Make Your Choice: Genesis or Evolution?
Some people believe that if you make the days of creation ages (long periods of time), then Genesis chapter 1 teaches the same as evolution. They believe that the order of events in Genesis 1 is the same order of events as given by the evolutionists. Let us see if this is really true:
Evolutionists say that the SUN came before the EARTH.
But God says the sun was made on DAY ______ and the earth was made on DAY _____. Therefore the earth is _______ days older than the sun! Was there LIGHT even before the sun was made? _______ On what day was this LIGHT created? DAY _____
Evolutionists say that life must first begin in the sea (in the ocean). They teach that after millions of years some life forms eventually moved onto the land.
But God says life in the ocean appeared on DAY _______ and life on land first appeared on DAY ______ (plant life). Thus, life on land appeared _____ DAYS before life appeared in the oceans (marine life).
Evolutionists say that reptiles came before birds (because they believe that birds evolved from reptiles).
But God says that birds were made on DAY ______ and land animals (which would included land reptiles) were not made until DAY ______. Birds are _____ DAY older than reptiles! Could birds have evolved from reptiles? ______ Certainly reptiles did not evolve from birds! (Not even the evolutionists would say this!). The Bible says God made the birds and God made the reptiles. Reptiles did not precede birds by hundreds of thousands of years.
Every thinking person knows that birds were created before reptiles, because that is what God has told us in His Word.
Evolutionists say that land mammals came before whales (because they believe that whales evolved from land mammals).
But God says that whales and other great monsters of the sea were created on DAY _____ and land mammals were not made until DAY _____. Which came first, the whale or the pig? _________________ Do you think the whale has evolved from pig-like animals? ________ Therefore whales are ______ DAY older than land mammals! For a land mammal to become a whale he would need to return to the water, lose his hair and grow about 50 times as big! Do you think this really happened? ______ A large elephant (the largest land mammal) weighs about 7 tons! A blue whale (the largest kind of whale) weighs about 150 tons! The whale did not evolve by chance; it was created by God!
Evolutionists say that plant life is impossible without insects because the pollination process (the way plants reproduce) requires insects such as bees.
But God says that insects (creeping things) were not created until DAY _____ and plant life appeared on DAY ______. This means that plant life appeared _______ DAYS before insects. Do you think plants and flowers could survive for 3 ages without insects? ______ Do you think plants and flowers could survive for 3 days without insects? _____
I was on time! The all-wise Creator created me at just the right timeon the sixth day of the creation week! Thats when I started making honey!!
Evolutionists say that ape-like creatures came along thousands of years before man (because they believe that man evolved from ape-like creatures).
But God says that men and apes were both created on DAY _______.
Evolutionists say that the sun must have been here before life could begin (because they believe life began as the suns rays beat down upon the primitive oceans).
But God says that life (vegetation) appeared on DAY _____ and the sun was not made until DAY ______. It is possible for life to begin without the sun but can life begin without the CREATOR? ______ Who is the source of life, the sun or the CREATOR (see Acts 17:28)? _______ Life owes its existence not to the SUN but to the SON OF GOD (see John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16).
Please indicate on which DAY of creation the following were made:
_______ God rested on this day
_______ The earth
_______ The stars
_______ Insects (bees)
_______ Land Reptiles
_______ The Sun
_______ Dry Land
(an expanse of space)
You cannot listen to both God and the evolutionists! They do not teach the same thing! If Genesis chapter 1 is true (and it is!), then evolution is false. If evolution is true, then Genesis chapter 1 is false, and the Bible is filled with errors. But the Lord Jesus said that the Word of God is ___________ (John 17:17) and we know that Gods Word is __________ from the ___________________ (Psalm 119:160). Who should you believe the CREATOR or the evolutionists? Will you put your faith in the false god of the evolutionists who needs billions of years to do his work, or will you put your faith in an Almighty Creator who can create all things in 6 DAYS?
As you observe and study the world around you, you will discover that all the true facts of science and all the true laws of science agree perfectly with the Bible and with the book of Genesis! Do you think it is possible for BOOK 1 (Gods revelation in nature) to contradict BOOK 2 (Gods revelation in His Word)? _______ (see pages 14-21). Who wrote Book 1? __________ Who wrote Book 2? _____________ God is the Author of both! This is why both books say the same thing. And both books point to the greatness of the C________________, who is blessed forever, Amen (see Romans 1:25). Sad to say, the books that the evolutionists write often do not agree with the true facts of science and they certainly do not agree with Gods Word the Bible! CHOOSE you this day! (See Joshua 24:15.) Choose the true God of creation or the false God of the evolutionists (the God of chance)!
there is nothing in the Bible to sugest a recreation
Man, I could preach that and win the world to Christ.
Absolutely. take the average fertility age of people, perhaps 16, multiply that by the number of incremental changes they require, then add in the factor that no change has ever been witnessed in hundreds of years of meticulous records, the resultant time span is longer than what they say is the age of the universe.
When were our souls created? There is nothing in Genesis that tells us the when. But we do know they existed as it is the 'soul' which means breath of life, that God breathed into the Adam's nostrils that made him living.
Paul says some were predestined before the foundation of this earth age. Ephesians 1:4, one of many places Paul tells us there was an age before this flesh age. An age where the dinos ran free and flesh man were NOT hunted down and consumed by dinos.
> You are the one stating that this proves evolution.
Actually, you’re the one who has said it is a better proof for Creation. I’m calling your bluff.
> I have no idea.
I do. These animals evolved here, and adapted to precisely suit the unique flora and fauna that also evolved here contemporaneously. And because until the arrival of Man on our islands, they had no natural predators so they lived here undisturbed at the top of their food chains. That is how the Tuatara was able to remain as the fragile last of a line of animals that nearly died out with the Dinosaurs.
What these animals DIDN’T do is travel here on Noah’s Ark — which is precisely what they would have had to do if we are expected to take the Genesis record literally. They did not swim here, and they could not fly here, they did not build rafts and float here on wood, and they could not hold their breath until the Great Flood waters receded (to where? — for there isn’t enough water on the planet to submerge it uniformly to a depth of 29,000 feet: do the sums and convince yourself!)
Having proven that the Genesis record cannot be taken completely literally, we are left with the task of re-assembling what really, actually did happen, and the likely timeframe for that to have occurred. That is a task best left to Evolutionists — reserving only the proviso that it all happened under God’s control, for His purposes, and at His direction. For that, too, is provable.
Chapter and verse for a re-creation, please?
If God's statement that man is created in His image and that God Himself breathed life into man is a lie, if the reality is that we evolved from pond scum, then every other thing that God has told us in His Word has to be questioned.
Fortunately, so much Scripture has been shown and proven to be absolutely inerrant and correct, I don't have the dilemma you posted.
I have every reason to believe God and doubt man and man's ever-changing theories and beliefs.