Posted on 04/21/2009 2:18:21 PM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins
Stephen Trimble—master of all things flying—has found this video that apparently shows a T-38 training fighter shooting down the theoretically invincible F-22 Raptor in a combat training exercise—first kill documented on video ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ&feature=player_embedded
It's not the first time it has happened, however: An EA-18G—a modified F/A-18 F Super Hornet Block II—"got lucky" and killed another F-22 with an AIM-120 AMRAAM in a simulated combat exercise over at Nellis AFB. This is something that Stephen confirmed himself.
However, this time instead of a high-tech EA-18G, the killer plane was this:
A humble T-38 training jet, piloted by a trainer on a combat training exercise over an unidentified air space. And it killed this:
An F-22 Raptor, the most advanced air fighter in the planet.
Stephen says that this doesn't mean much, except that—if it was really a T-38, the pilot was "either absurdly lucky or insanely skilled." Here's hoping all those Chinese and Russians flying next-generation fighters don't get either lucky or skilled anytime soon. [Flight Global]
Isn’t the F-22 getting cut?
I am SO gonna analyze this.
Before analysis, I do want to note that the F-22 is designed for BVR.
But this should be great :)
My son trained on the T-38. He loved it.
On any given Sunday...
New production is. They aren't scrapping the ones in inventory already.
it was proved long ago that the F-5, with the right pilot, can out manuever an F-15 and shoot it down.
It is all about the Pilot and his skilllevel
The F-22 has NOT been around long enough to know it’s tough spots, but the F-5 is ancient, aggressive, and manuverable
I would want to see what the rules of engagement and flight rules are. If the F-22 started in the T-38's gunsights, with its landing gear down and wasn't allowed to go supersonic, I could see the T-38 getting a kill.
Not to worry...the pilot in the ‘22 was afraid to “shoot down” one of the Thunderbirds!!
I get it now — the T38 got inside the curve of the F-22. We always forget the advantages of a craft than can fly “slowly.”
The F-22 should have used his ability to change the delta.
Of course, having never one beyond simulators what the heck do I know?
Nut that does bring up the question — could an F-16 defeat an F-22 using similar tactics?
I find it amusing that its HUGE NEWS when an F22 is ‘shot down’ in training exercises.
I think it diminishes their kill ratio to about 10000:1
During Exercise Northern Edge 2006 in Alaska in early June, the F-22 proved its mettle against as many as 40 "enemy aircraft" during simulated battles. The Raptor achieved a 108-to-zero kill ratio at that exercise. But the capabilities of the F-22 go beyond what it can do. It is also able to help other aircraft do better.
Sure, this may have happened as shown; but in 99.9% of the cases the aircraft would have been destroyed before it even 'saw' the F-22. Being armed to the teeth, invisible to radar, and extremely maneurvable has it's advantages.
Perfect analysis right there!
Do you know how many we have?
BTTFL
Lends credence to my theory that the F-22 isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, hence the cancellation. It’s better than anything we have today, but not advanced enough to justify its huge cost.
I have a great poster from Magu NAS way back when with the autographs of the T-Bird T-38 team. Nice folk and very audience friendly :)
To this day, I cherish the handshakes and the autographs. And there were 2 women pilots that were — well — hot :)
181, I believe. Two were destroyed in accidents.
Neil Armstrong once said (sorry, I don’t have the cite at hand) that of all the aircraft and spacecraft he flew (and he flew about everything) the T-38 was his favorite. Guess there was a good reason. :)
Let's change the game .... 100 miles apart at 600mph closing at 40,000 feet ... fight's on.
T-38 is TOAST.
F-22 in Video did not appear to aggressively be trying to evade the T-38.
Maybe two tight circle at not much altitude variation.
Also Video not a continual feed.
But a pacifist-sounding wimp can kill us all with lofty appeasement when he is given command.
Glad they cut that boondoggle.
They said that about the F4 phantom in the 60’s and it got a lousy kill ratio until they put a gun back on it.
Better spent on that, than given to ACORN and every other parasite supporting Obama.
Thank goodness for training exercises. Will the military still be able to afford them after 0’s cuts?
Regards,
TS
Its like having air combat training at RED FLAG or TOPGUN where Instructor Pilots could whip the crap out of their students but every now and then a student will get lucky and get a kill.
All the more reason to build more F-22’s,Not less.There need to be more than enough to be on hand for training,Day to Day operations and a replacement pool.Because due to Pilot error and Mechanical troubles some aircraft will be lost.
Of course the T-38 won. It was flown by one of the Thunderbirds.
Everyone knows the Thunderbirds (and the Blue Angels) rock!
Exactly.
or we could get 2 F-35 for the price of a raptor or even more in new production F-15s
God forbid that Congress actually spend something they are suppose to do... The F-22 is not a boondoggle..
It's been around for decades, and it's a nice looking aircraft. Some are in private hands.
That works for me, especially the proposed "stealth" F-15 upgrade I read about recently. But we need programs like the F-22 to keep our research going forward.
But did the F-22 shoot down the T-38 at beyond visual range.
In real life, the T38, or any other aircraft, would be dust before it knew the F22 was in the same time zone.
Exactly. Somehow the T-38 gets within visual range. You
would hope the 22 would be able to out turn him but the
T-38 is a tiny plane...
Now if the Raptor pilot had a death wish and wanted to mix it up in the weeds from 10,000 AGL or lower, he could engage and if he had any piloting skills and knew his aircraft's abilities to the fullest, no other aircraft would be able to obtain a shooting solution for a IR missile or gun on a raptor from any other threat aircraft, unless the odds were 10 to one.
However, even a clock is right once a day digital and twice a day analog. If the Raptor pilot was youthful and inexperienced and flying against a seasoned jock who knew the capabilities of both airframes, and the Raptor was succored into a Mano a mano dogfight in the weeds, than yes a t-38 could flame a Raptor repeatedly, only because a nugget did not fly the raptor to its ability.
It is absurd to compare any other aircraft with the raptor in this manner and fighter jocks laugh at this nonsense. I hope the T-38 pilot got a premium draft beer from the nugget.
Shouldn’t your SN read: MyTwoCopperCladZincCoins
My only concern about the number is a drawn out fight with China.
“it was proved long ago that the F-5, with the right pilot, can out manuever an F-15 and shoot it down.
It is all about the Pilot and his skilllevel”
Anyone who draws any conclusions from this snippet of gun camera film is an idiot.
Can a good highschool team run a touchdown in against an NFL team? Well, I suppose it would eventually happen if you didn’t run out of highschoolers first.
The two coins are old... really old, and copper.
;^)
That being said, the T-38 and F-5 family are simply great aircraft! The design is now 50 years old and it is still nimble enough to threaten 5th generation aircraft. (The T-38 is early 2nd generation).
Oh, okay. :)
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