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Former fundamentalist 'debunks' Bible
cnn ^ | May 15, 2009

Posted on 05/15/2009 12:18:43 PM PDT by JoeProBono

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To: JoeProBono
I read Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus. It's a well researched, intersting book, full of information on how the Bible came to be the way it is. Many Christians won't like it, but it's hard to refute.
51 posted on 05/15/2009 1:30:00 PM PDT by TBP
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To: D-fendr
(If you watch House, he used it in an episode.)

He was also lying.

52 posted on 05/15/2009 1:31:52 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: brytlea
Faith in what? I’m not sure what Christianity is if it’s not about Jesus, salvation, etc.

Because that is the definition you were given.

53 posted on 05/15/2009 1:32:41 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: JoeProBono
Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus and heaven and hell are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said.

As far as I can tell, Ehrman is right about that point. The earliest versions we have of the books of the Bible are very different from the versions we all read today.

At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries.

Forgeries is a very strong word, stronger than I would choose. But the evidence is clear that these books have been significantly and substantially altered. Sometimes it was a transcription error; often it was insertion or deletion to fit a particular audience or a particular agenda.

54 posted on 05/15/2009 1:33:06 PM PDT by TBP
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To: EternalVigilance

“I thank the God that is that the God tehy told me about isn’t.” — Dr. Ernest Holmes.


55 posted on 05/15/2009 1:34:03 PM PDT by TBP
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To: antiRepublicrat

Then YOU explain to me what Christianity is and why I should bother with it.


56 posted on 05/15/2009 1:34:40 PM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: ak267

I think Ehrman is saying that even though his scholarship persuades him that much of the Bible isn’t literally true, there is still much wisdom in it and we can learn from it.


57 posted on 05/15/2009 1:37:42 PM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP
I have a few questions for you:

Do you believe Jesus is the only doorway to God, that no man cometh to the Father but by Him?
Do you believe there is in fact a communication that God desires with individual humans?
Do you believe that the God Who can create this complex and so very delicately balanced Universe (an accident so rare as to be a 1 in 10120 possibility) is able to have His communication conveyed through this Bible which Ehrman denegrates as 'man-made'?
Whom do you suppose is served by this not so subtle insult to God's integrity as the 'Jesus Seminar' (which is Ehrman supported as I understand it) conveys?

58 posted on 05/15/2009 1:39:46 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: mikeus_maximus
His assumptions are unsubstantiated speculations and wishful thinking.

Actually, they're textual analysis, much of it comparison of the earliest versions of the texts to what they say now. then he analyses how the differences may have occurred.

You may not like his conclusions, but they're based on much more substance than "unsubstantiated speculations and wishful thinking."

59 posted on 05/15/2009 1:39:51 PM PDT by TBP
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To: Two Kids' Dad
where did the water come from and to where did it recede?

It rained.

just to prove a point to the devil

don't thing he was trying to prove anything to the devil. When we go through a 'Job experience' - it's more for us to see what's inside of us. We can say we have faith and believe - but going through crap really tells us what's inside. Furthermore, I'm glad it's in Bible - it shows no matter how bad things get - keep going and don't give up. God, also, gave back to Job 2x more than he lost except for his children - he got the same number back because they weren't 'lost' - they were in heaven.

science tells us that a woman can get pregnant without penetration

Science deals with the natural, they are clueless when it comes to the supernatural. This was supernatural.
60 posted on 05/15/2009 1:39:54 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Free Vulcan
Does he speak Greek and Hebrew?

Did Jesus?

61 posted on 05/15/2009 1:40:29 PM PDT by TBP
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To: JoeProBono

“Ididn’tdoitnobodysawmedoityoucan’tproveanything!”

62 posted on 05/15/2009 1:40:44 PM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?))
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To: Two Kids' Dad

I disagree with the author. It’s more than just lessons about right and wrong...much, much, more.

The New Testament is the foundation of today’s Christianity. Without it (no Messiah, no resurrection, etc.,) it’s all for nothing.


63 posted on 05/15/2009 1:40:52 PM PDT by ak267
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To: antiRepublicrat
He probably grew up under inerrantists and lost it all when he found out that wasn't true.

He says as much in the introduction to Misquoting Jesus.

64 posted on 05/15/2009 1:41:44 PM PDT by TBP
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To: antiRepublicrat
He was also lying.

Lying to the boyfriend that it occurred in his girlfriend. Not lying about the possibility of the event or his reference to it.

65 posted on 05/15/2009 1:42:07 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: presently no screen name
where did the water come from and to where did it recede?

It rained.


And "all the great fountains of the deep" were broken up (Genesis 7:11). It's estimated that even now the crust contains more water than is in all the earth's oceans.
66 posted on 05/15/2009 1:43:20 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: brytlea
Is it about the teachigns of Jesus orJesus the person?
67 posted on 05/15/2009 1:44:05 PM PDT by TBP
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To: antiRepublicrat

Yeah I think Moody still taught language back in those days. I came along later and got the teaching without language courses but learned it from guys who did. How this guy comes to the conclusions he comes to is beyond me.


68 posted on 05/15/2009 1:44:31 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (No prisoners. No mercy. 2010 awaits.....)
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To: TBP

are you serious?


69 posted on 05/15/2009 1:45:33 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (No prisoners. No mercy. 2010 awaits.....)
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: TBP

If you’re asking me a question, I”m not sure what exactly you’re asking.


71 posted on 05/15/2009 1:46:19 PM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: presently no screen name
When we go through a 'Job experience' - it's more for us to see what's inside of us.

The last time through it for me I saw my pride. When God asks Job, "where were you when.." and details the challenges of creation through man and God's eyes.

Exploring "How would I have done this better than God?" is a very revealing exercise.

72 posted on 05/15/2009 1:46:39 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: TBP
his scholarship persuades him that much of the Bible isn’t literally true

Exactly - his scholarship! Using the 'natural' to figure out the 'supernatural' ain't gonna happen!! Only those who are truly converted, HS filled, gets it.
73 posted on 05/15/2009 1:49:46 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: MHGinTN
Do you believe Jesus is the only doorway to God, that no man cometh to the Father but by Him? No, I don't. I believe that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent -- there is no spot where God is not. We are all conscious, deliberate, intentional expressions of God.

Do you believe there is in fact a communication that God desires with individual humans? Yes, a communication in which I engage on a daily basis through prayer, meditation, and otherpractices.

Do you believe that the God Who can create this complex and so very delicately balanced Universe (an accident so rare as to be a 1 in 10120 possibility) is able to have His communication conveyed through this Bible which Ehrman denegrates as 'man-made'? Yes, and through all of the Scriptures of the world. The problem isn't God's message; it's that it was put together by human beings with agendas and they may not have been the clearest channels for God's message. In addition, many of them had agendas of their own that got superimposed on the message.

Whom do you suppose is served by this not so subtle insult to God's integrity as the 'Jesus Seminar' (which is Ehrman supported as I understand it) conveys? Well, I don't regard it as an insult to God. I regard it as investigation and research. If you're basing your faith on Jesus and teh evidence shows that Jesus may have been distorted (or any of God's messengers, for that matter), wouldn't you want to know that so you could follow his teachings more clearly?

74 posted on 05/15/2009 1:51:33 PM PDT by TBP
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To: Two Kids' Dad

I will pray for your ‘kids’.


75 posted on 05/15/2009 1:51:59 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: Free Vulcan

Yes, it’s a serious question. What was the language of Jesus?


76 posted on 05/15/2009 1:53:13 PM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP

Aramaic. And Love.


77 posted on 05/15/2009 1:54:44 PM PDT by Little Ray (Do we have a Plan B?)
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To: brytlea
Is Christianity about Jesus himself or is it about what he taught and what he did?
78 posted on 05/15/2009 1:54:50 PM PDT by TBP
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To: D-fendr

Yes, pride peeked his ugly head up in my situation, also. It’s a purging that needs to be done. But, then, again, I asked for it and said anything that is not of YOU - take it from me.! be careful and ready when you ask for something! :)


79 posted on 05/15/2009 1:57:00 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
Only those who are truly converted, HS filled, gets it.

IOW, only those who agree with you are entitled to an opinion. Just the way the Obamaites think.

A religion is more than just this world, obviously, but if it can't hold up under logic and historical scholarship, then there is something flawed about it. You shouldn't be able to poke holes in it in these ways.

80 posted on 05/15/2009 1:57:32 PM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP

I’m still not sure what you’re point is, but I think it fundamentally is about what He did, and by that I mean dying on the cross for our sins and overcoming death. If it’s NOT about that, what do you think it’s about?


81 posted on 05/15/2009 1:59:08 PM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: TBP

Jesus spoke Aramaic, but He didn’t write any of the Gospels, so why are you following this line of questioning? (not saying you shouldn’t but just get to your point!)


82 posted on 05/15/2009 2:00:39 PM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: Little Ray
Aramaic.

Excatly! So the sayings in Greek are already translations -- most likely including some translation errors, since the translating was done by human beings. Now, there ahve been a few scholars who understand Aramaic and tehy read many of the key verses a bit differently from the way they've been translated.

Unfortunately, the Bible as we have it, transcription errors and edits aside, is sort of a centuries-long game of telephone, the words of Jesus translated from Aramaic into Greek, then into other languages. Ours is second or third hand translation. This increases the likelihood of simple, innocnet translation errors. In addition, some idiomatic terms don't really translate well.

83 posted on 05/15/2009 2:01:13 PM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP
How weak must be the God Whom cannot prevent His message from being dissembled? ...

You are in great peril with your self-made religiosity which rejects Jesus' own teaching. You appear on the surface to be comfortable with your creation.

If you ever conclude that Jesus meant what He taught when He stated on more than one occasion that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Light, that no man cometh unto the Father but by Him', if/when you come to that conclusion, you will be at the beginning of His invitation to you individually ... and perhaps your ears will no longer itch.

84 posted on 05/15/2009 2:02:28 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: brytlea

It’s the teachings that matter most. He taught us about love and healing and living life abundantly.

By his crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus transcended death. he taught us eternality. Then he said, “The things that I have done ye also shall do and greater than these shall ye do.”


85 posted on 05/15/2009 2:03:48 PM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP

Do you believe He was literally physically resurrected?


86 posted on 05/15/2009 2:04:39 PM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: TBP

Jesus taught that His message IS about Himself, and that allows us tosurmise that most if not all of what His disciples wrote of Him is reliably about His message and what He did.


87 posted on 05/15/2009 2:05:02 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

he is quoted as saying that once. In Matthew, he says “You are teh light of the world.” But I guess Matthew doesn’t matter.


88 posted on 05/15/2009 2:05:22 PM PDT by TBP
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To: brytlea

Yes.


89 posted on 05/15/2009 2:05:47 PM PDT by TBP
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To: MHGinTN
His message IS about Himself

No, it's about God.

90 posted on 05/15/2009 2:06:17 PM PDT by TBP
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To: TBP

But you think that’s secondary to His teachings?


91 posted on 05/15/2009 2:07:37 PM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: TBP

He IS God.


92 posted on 05/15/2009 2:07:53 PM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: TBP
if it can't hold up under logic and historical scholarship, then there is something flawed about it.

That's 'your' thinking - in the natural. That's not God's way.

You shouldn't be able to poke holes in it in these ways.

Your hole poking makes sense to you - because you're using logic and historical scholarship. That's not God's way.

Seems this applies to you more than it ever would to me.....only those who agree with you are entitled to an opinion. Just the way the Obamaites think.

You make up your own mind and rules about supernatural things that 'seem right' to you - I leave the supernatural up to the All Knowing God.
93 posted on 05/15/2009 2:08:17 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: TBP
Don't resort to trying the fallacy of the undistributed middle. It exposes your insecurity.

Is Jesus risen from the dead in body? ... If yes, then we have something over which to discuss other issues. If you do not believe that He is risen, bodily, then I bid you fiar winds and will say a prayer for your enlightenment.

94 posted on 05/15/2009 2:09:18 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: TBP

And upon what accusation by the High Priest of the Sanhedrin was Jesus sent for crucifixion?


95 posted on 05/15/2009 2:11:08 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: presently no screen name
You don't even see what you're doing, do you?

you're using logic and historical scholarship. That's not God's way.

IOW, if logic and historical scholarship don't back your position, just dismiss them (as liberals do all the time) as "not of God." ?Then you can be comfortable in continuing to hold your position with no examination whatsoever. IOW, as the liberals practice on a 24/7 basis, if the evidence doesn't support your opinion, then change the evidence. The try to delegitimize any other argument. Brilliant, excpet that it doesn't work.

96 posted on 05/15/2009 2:15:09 PM PDT by TBP
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To: brytlea
Then YOU explain to me what Christianity is and why I should bother with it.

I'm not a Christian evangelist, not my job.

97 posted on 05/15/2009 2:15:13 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: JoeProBono

I see Goerge Costanza finally got a real job.


98 posted on 05/15/2009 2:15:51 PM PDT by tang-soo (Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks - Read Daniel Chapter 9)
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To: brytlea
He IS God.

Of course. It's all God. If God is infinite then God is everywhere, and if that's true, then one cannot be separate from God.

Or do you believe God to be limited? In whcih case, how can God be Omnipotent and Omniscient?

99 posted on 05/15/2009 2:17:09 PM PDT by TBP
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To: MHGinTN

He as sent up for blasphemy — and being a threat to the Empier and teh Jewish religious establishment and to Herod.


100 posted on 05/15/2009 2:18:22 PM PDT by TBP
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