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Little gems from the Health Care Bill
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=903496 ^

Posted on 07/24/2009 3:12:23 PM PDT by CMS

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This is a frightening piece of legislation. If this passes the U.S. officially enters into an "Orwellian" state.

If I voiced my feelings on this, I'd get banned from this site. So I'll just say continue to call, e-mail, contact your Reps, and Senators constantly and tell them to vote against this bill.

1 posted on 07/24/2009 3:12:24 PM PDT by CMS
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To: CMS

Thank you for assembling this.

What if I don’t want a National Health ID card?


2 posted on 07/24/2009 3:16:52 PM PDT by oblomov (Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods. - Mencken)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: CMS

Good Lord. This is unbelievable.


4 posted on 07/24/2009 3:18:34 PM PDT by squarebarb
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To: CMS

Do you have a source and link for this?


5 posted on 07/24/2009 3:18:54 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: CMS

And this is why Obama, Pelosi, Waxman, et al wanted to rush Obamacare through congress before anybody had a chance to read it.

Contact your congressman and your two senators today!


6 posted on 07/24/2009 3:19:12 PM PDT by Walrus (My congressman is toast in 2010 --- how about yours?)
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To: oblomov

1) leave the US
2) run for your life
3) lie
4) expect a chip
5) live like there’s no tomorrow. It will be.


7 posted on 07/24/2009 3:19:35 PM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Fili et Spiritus Sancti.)
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To: Admin Moderator
I don't know how to hot link.

1017 pages of HR3200
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf

But I got it off of another forum http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=903496

and they got it from, and just cleaned it up a bit.
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2009/07/whats-in-healthacre-bill.html
8 posted on 07/24/2009 3:24:18 PM PDT by CMS ( obama pres & dem majority----RIP United States of America 1776-2008 It was great while it lasted.)
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To: Admin Moderator
in fact at this site, which has the text of the bill. type in the page number i said, and you can see it CLEARLY in print

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf
9 posted on 07/24/2009 3:31:13 PM PDT by CMS ( obama pres & dem majority----RIP United States of America 1776-2008 It was great while it lasted.)
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To: CMS
F U B O

10 posted on 07/24/2009 3:38:38 PM PDT by unixfox (The 13th Amendment Abolished Slavery, The 16th Amendment Reinstated It !)
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To: CMS

Looks like I’ll be paying for healthcare twice, like I paid for education twice.

Once for the government mandated and useless version (Public Schools, Obama DeathCare(TM)) and once in the Free Market for what works.

They can demand that I pay for their care. It’s a tax. They can’t stop me from spending my own money after that in a private transaction with an individual doctor.


11 posted on 07/24/2009 3:48:37 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (It's the spending, stupid!)
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To: CMS

Yet they refuse to let the GOP call it Government Healthcare?


12 posted on 07/24/2009 4:03:50 PM PDT by TribalPrincess2U (-0 retreats, Iraq explodes! NK fires missiles! Iran erupts! China erupts!)
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To: CMS

BM


13 posted on 07/24/2009 4:05:47 PM PDT by Para-Ord.45
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To: CMS

bfl


14 posted on 07/24/2009 4:07:59 PM PDT by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand;but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: Admin Moderator

Straight out of the 1000 plus page House Health Care plan. I read the entire thing and this is a very good synopsis. However, there will be ove 500 NEW bureaucracies created to implement this plan. Now, will all those new government employees be exempt from the plan they are to foist on the rest of us??? You betcha!!


15 posted on 07/24/2009 4:40:00 PM PDT by Semperfiwife (Health "care" - by the same folks who run Amtrak and the post office)
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To: Walrus
Wasn't there also a section that this bill is exempt from judicial review, so that the courts theoretically CANNOT challenge unconstitutional law? ObamaCare Jokes Obama Jokes
16 posted on 07/24/2009 5:02:15 PM PDT by tbw2 (Freeper sci-fi - "Humanity's Edge" - on amazon.com)
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To: tbw2

Isn’t there a provision restricting going out of state for seeing a primary care or specialist physician or hospital?


17 posted on 07/24/2009 5:12:43 PM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . The boy's war iin Dor tetriot has already cost more then the war in Iraq.)
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To: CMS

It seems to me that a little death might be beneficial to the country. The start sould begin in Washington


18 posted on 07/24/2009 5:19:07 PM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . The boy's war iin Dor tetriot has already cost more then the war in Iraq.)
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To: bert
I had not heard of that one, but it would not surprise me. ObamaCare Jokes Obama Jokes
19 posted on 07/24/2009 5:47:04 PM PDT by tbw2 (Freeper sci-fi - "Humanity's Edge" - on amazon.com)
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To: combat_boots

Good summary. Should this pass we have about 3 years to find a new home. Someone posted about the Phillipines recently.


20 posted on 07/24/2009 6:25:21 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: CMS

Interesting, the way they outlined. The summary post made are very MISLEADING to the sheep in this room. So don’t read the above as is. Each really means something else that they did not tell you. Believe me, I’m a nurse for 33 yrs and some of the stuff I read, I already know what it references, but the writer doesnt TELL you that. The way it is written sounds SCAREY, Please do NOT believe EVERYthing you read on here. Search out the Whole truth. It is obvious the writer was trying to scare the heck out of everybody with his choice of words posted.


21 posted on 07/28/2009 7:31:10 PM PDT by ncdonna
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To: ncdonna

Are you actually for this pile of communist b/s?


22 posted on 07/28/2009 7:35:37 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/jimrobfr)
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To: ncdonna

Is there anything we should be aware of, in your opinion?


23 posted on 07/28/2009 7:37:46 PM PDT by Globalist Goon ("Head down over a saddle.")
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To: ncdonna

So there will be no rationing? You are the expert tonight.


24 posted on 07/28/2009 7:39:45 PM PDT by Globalist Goon ("Head down over a saddle.")
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To: ncdonna

Have you read the health care bill?


25 posted on 07/28/2009 7:44:38 PM PDT by Jean S
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: ncdonna

This is a breakdown of the ‘talking points’ misinformation being spread around.

http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/2009/07/deconstructing-the-right-wing-lies-health-bill.html#more


28 posted on 07/29/2009 4:56:24 PM PDT by Winternights (debunking lies in this post)
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To: Winternights

zot


29 posted on 07/30/2009 9:17:10 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/jimrobfr)
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To: ncdonna

zot


30 posted on 07/30/2009 9:18:36 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/jimrobfr)
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To: Jim Robinson

They keep you busy, huh?


31 posted on 07/30/2009 9:23:20 PM PDT by azishot (Please join the NRA.)
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To: CMS

A true nightmare, almost all of which would be completely unconstitutional (if we were still governed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights, which we are NOT.)


32 posted on 07/30/2009 10:10:17 PM PDT by FormerACLUmember (When the past no longer illuminates the future, the spirit walks in darkness.)
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To: CMS

BTTT for later use


33 posted on 07/30/2009 10:10:49 PM PDT by Go Gordon
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To: Winternights; Admin Moderator

Welcome to FreeRepublic!


34 posted on 07/30/2009 11:44:28 PM PDT by Carling (Gatesgate: Obama's Waterloo)
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To: Winternights
I've read both these summaries through and through and I come from a medical perspective. Suffice to say your misinformation link is filled with misinformation. I may agree to some hyperbole but let me show just a few points where the liberal "wingnut" making the counter points is being ridiculous. I won't bother with the obvious strawman arguments throughout.

First, the obvious:

• Page 203: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it really says that.

The author then complains about the period after tax and pastes in the full text which indeed says exactly what was claimed. True it had no period but the meaning is clear that any of the penalty taxes imposed can't be used in tax deductions and hence means exactly what it would with the period. I mean the author says he doesn't even understand the legalese while lambasting the original author for changing the meaning he didn't get in the first place. Great argument.

Next: • Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

The rebuttal claims the author is lying and I can therefore outright say that the man does not even begin to have a grasp of how medicare and medicaid are run. It SETS WAGES! And in the referenced page it clearly states there are three types of doctors, all of which must accept the gov. fee as FULL PAYMENT. No collection of additional from the patient. Hence the government will set wages. Unless you buy into the complete fallacy that you can just not join. Read this heap of garbage through and you will see it makes plain the options are either be in the government plan or stop being a doctor. Many will choose the latter. As it stands right now, most doctors LOSE money on Medicare patients and make up for it in private payments which is ironic because private premiums have increased LESS than Medicare.

Which brings me to my next point: • Page 253: Government sets value of doctors’ time, their professional judgment, etc. and • Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you’ll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)

Read for yourself. Our liberal authorize begins hurling insults when the text of the bill is clear. Billing codes will be classified into two groups and prices fixed based on that category "without regard to the specialty of the physician furnishing the service". Yes it says that. AND I got the punctuation correct. No imagine the lack of specialists. Who would go through 23 YEARS of school and training minimum (12 years of primary, 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and 3 years of residency minimum) and then decide to add on up 7-10 years more for heart surgery or neurosurgery for the same pay? Would you? Hell, at Medicare rate I know numerous other doctors that would stop practicing. And ask a random sample of doctors today if they would tell their child to become a doctor. The result should scare you. I already know what the answer will be. Who need the government to ration when lack of doctors will do it for you. I guess Juan from Primero Medical School of Jamaica would be fine for your healthcare?

Then: • Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.

The liberal nut claims that outcome-based medicine is not rationing but the opposite. However, he fails to note that that is the exact method used in other socialized medicine programs. Outcome based means you ONLY give treatments and medication that have an outcome deemed positive by research. Now that is all and good for guidelines, but I can be 99% confident that nearly everyone one here has been prescribed something off-label; that is not approved for that use. Outcome based your would never have gotten that med. Furthermore, one need not look far for bogus politically motivated decisions from the FDA or CDC on medications and treatments and those are the ones who will decide what is part of a positive outcome. Experimental cancer treatments? Dream on. NOT ONE experimental drug is considered to be part of outcome based medicine. Again, the author proves his naivete.

I'll stop at: • Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.

The author says its made up and then defends the logic. The text of the bill is "(C) applying a payment reduction for physicians who treat the patient during the initial admission that results in a readmission;" so the idiot is clearly wrong on the whole made up thing. Should give you pause on believing him when he says it throughout his rant. But onto his logic. He states its like taking your car into a garage. You wouldn't pay a mechanic twice if they didn't fix it the first time. Now lets get real. If you took your car in to replace your engine because you failed to put in oil and then left and did it again would you come back and get a discount or a freebie? Its a ridiculous statement that shows that this man believes doctors are the bad guy out to just make a buck. A doctor treats someone in the hospital to the best of their ability. If they don't, its called malpractice and we already have laws, licensing, and lawsuits that take care of that readily. Once the patient leaves the hospital, they are free to use and abuse their bodies or be prone to any number of unforeseeable complications from their illness that is nowhere like a car repair that now the doctor will be liable for even without intent or negligence? There's a reason why you need no degree for car repair and decades of school for medicine. Except now they may be getting paid the same. Now imagine how many doctors will just pass on treating patients with complicated problems. It self-fulfilling rationing and its already happening in other countries. The evidence is there. Maybe this guy should believe in an outcome based healthcare system. If he did, he wouldn't be for this. There is no evidence to support his thesis. Only the contrary.

OK, last one: • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

Again the clown displays his ignorance. Ncdonna, nurse of 33 years was likely was never involved in billing. Most nurses never have. If she agrees with this clown at ALL it must be the case. He quotes the text of the bill "(C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice;". He then says that clearly means only electronic transfer between doctor and government plan. First off, that alone is scary to anyone practicing medicine as a doctor and should be scary to a nurse who makes their livelihood assisting the same. Those penalties for readmissions, etc? Removed directly from your bank at the gov't choosing. Kiss those sky high nurse wages goodbye on this plan. Ncdonna, I would just like to point out that a doctor at a typical practice making just medicare fees would make at BEST the same as the top 10% RN today. Not quite a fair deal and if the doctor's wages drop, so will the nurses. But onto the technical here. When one receives remittance advice it has what amount was claimed, what amount was covered and then what is left for the patient to pay. The reconciliation of said advice consists of making that balance zero including BILLING THE PATIENT. So automated reconciliation would include deduction of premiums and copays electronically from YOUR bank account, not the doctors. Unless you believe this is free or something and you won't owe premiums or a copay at all. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

I could go on with every point this idiot tried to make. If, your entire argument consists of calling someone a liar, chances are thou doth protest too much. And making arguments that are clearly refutable such as the CBO claiming some savings with this plan when they have stated the OPPOSITE. Or one that resorts to hyperbole and emotion based politics while bashing the country in just 2 sentences:

"This offers everyone a chance at affordable health insurance, and stops the health care inflation that has crippled our economy for decades. But more than that, it will make us a proud nation, that cares about its people once again."

Or even in one: "Our country is becoming second-rate right before our eyes, and one reason is the money we're flushing away on health care for no one, while thousands of people die and thousands of others are pushed to financial ruin."

And anyone who references Sicko in glowing terms or peppers arguments with Bush bashing and class warfare is not one to be reasoned with. He is one to be defeated. Nothing more than another ultra liberal progressive out to destroy what's left of the country. The government cannot take control over even MORE of the economy. There is only a train at the end of this tunnel. That's not the sun.

P.S. - Frequent visitor who finally got so worked up as to sign up and post. My post #1.

35 posted on 07/31/2009 12:01:44 AM PDT by OgreTheGreat
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To: ncdonna
Photobucket
36 posted on 07/31/2009 12:07:54 AM PDT by mojitojoe (All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people the people to remain silent.)
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To: CMS
Please, what good is reading it if it is 1000 pages. Let's just rush it through and then see what happens. Who cares if it ruins lives or kills people. We need health care reform now!

Typical careless politicians.

37 posted on 07/31/2009 4:07:39 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: OgreTheGreat
“P.S. - Frequent visitor who finally got so worked up as to sign up and post. My post #1.”

Applause! A notable post at that!

38 posted on 07/31/2009 5:22:56 AM PDT by poobear
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To: CMS

bump


39 posted on 07/31/2009 5:38:25 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid! (Obama, the first ever 3 in a half year, lame duck TOTUS)
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To: CMS
To get the text go to www.thomas.gov and type in HR3200 in search (by bill number).

I looked for the part about having access to bank account and couldn't find it.

40 posted on 07/31/2009 7:36:47 AM PDT by Tribune7 (I am Jim Thompson!)
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To: OgreTheGreat

Thanks, you have pointed out much of the misinformation about misinformation that I noted as I just read through the ‘Crap’ article!


41 posted on 07/31/2009 8:30:25 AM PDT by algernonpj (He who pays the piper . . .)
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To: mojitojoe

Enjoyed the graphic


42 posted on 07/31/2009 8:34:59 AM PDT by algernonpj (He who pays the piper . . .)
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To: Tribune7

From page 59:

‘‘(C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice;”

Granted, it currently says ‘enable’.


43 posted on 07/31/2009 8:40:00 AM PDT by algernonpj (He who pays the piper . . .)
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To: oblomov

“What if I don’t want a National Health ID card?”

That would be doubleplusungood for you, comrade;)


44 posted on 07/31/2009 8:55:36 AM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: Jim Robinson; ncdonna
Are you actually for this pile of communist b/s?

I had a link somewhere to the bill and read some of the highlights, the ones I read appeared to be true.

That poster is either trolling or hasn't read the bill.

I'll go find that link

45 posted on 07/31/2009 9:35:40 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Move over NetZero - Obama's in the house!)
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To: Jim Robinson
Well, I see you already swept up the trash but here is a link to the bill for future referrence, if by chance you need it.

To provide affordable, quality health care for all Americans and reduce the growth in health care spending, and for other purposes, http://edlabor.house.gov

46 posted on 07/31/2009 9:40:56 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Move over NetZero - Obama's in the house!)
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To: Jim Robinson
zot

Like the magical sound of the back porch bug-zapper! Thanks Jim!

47 posted on 07/31/2009 10:23:06 AM PDT by Knute
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To: OgreTheGreat

“Who would go through 23 YEARS of school and training minimum (12 years of primary, 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school and 3 years of residency minimum) and then decide to add on up 7-10 years more for heart surgery or neurosurgery for the same pay?”

Actually..that doesnt take into account that many college students change majors and end up with 5-6 years of undergrad. Some with masters degrees return to school for a B.S., then apply to med school. Still others return to school in their 30s and 40s in the hopes of becoming a doctor. What is going to happen when all these scenarios cease to come to pass? A whole lot LESS doctors in our country.

I’m convinced that we will see a lot of arrests in 5-10 years of competent doctors practicing without a license. As in, going underground to treat their patients. A friend of mine told me of a cardiologist in the UK who reached his quota and was TOLD by the govt not to perform any more heart surgeries for the remainder of the year despite many being on a waiting list.


48 posted on 07/31/2009 11:17:45 AM PDT by Soothesayer9
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To: Knute

Wow..hold on a minute. Am i to understand that anyone with an opposing view gets banned here? Honestly?!

Funny, they don’t do that at the other sites I visit: Ars Technica, TownHall, Am. Spec, or Seeking Alpha. Please tell me I didn’t make a mistake signing up with this site.


49 posted on 07/31/2009 11:20:42 AM PDT by Soothesayer9
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To: Soothesayer9

Yup.


50 posted on 07/31/2009 1:12:04 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/jimrobfr)
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