Ancient Britain Had Apartheid-Like Society, Study Suggests

National Geographic News ^ | July 21, 2006 | Kate Ravilious

[SunkenCiv]

When Anglo-Saxons first arrived in Britain 1,600 years ago, they created an apartheid-like society that oppressed the native Britons and wiped out almost all of the British gene pool, according to a new study. By treating Britons like slaves and imposing strict rules, the small band of Anglo-Saxons -- who had come from what is now Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands -- quickly dominated the country, leaving a legacy of Germanic genes and the English language, both of which still dominate Britain today. The new theory helps explain historical, archaeological, and genetic evidence that until now had seemed contradictory, including the high number of Germanic genes found in modern-day England... Historical and archaeological data suggest that no more than 200,000 Anglo-Saxons arrived in Britain around the middle of the fourth century A.D. This is less than half of the 500,000 newcomers that genetic models suggest would be needed to swamp the gene pool of the native Britons, who are believed to have numbered around two million. And yet Germanic genes are abundant in the English population today. Genetic studies have shown that more than 50 percent of England's gene pool contains Germanic Y chromosomes... But the researchers say 200,000 Anglo-Saxons could have dominated the English gene pool in less than 15 generations if the newcomers held a higher social standing... But not everyone agrees with the team's theory. Alex Burghart, an Anglo-Saxon historian at Kings College London, thinks that "apartheid" is far too strong a word... Sarah Foot, a medieval historian at England's University of Sheffield, also thinks the word "apartheid" is unwarranted. But she believes the research has merit.

[SunkenCiv]

A rare Anglo-Saxon gold coin went on display at the British Museum in February. A new study suggests that an apartheid-like system gave Anglo-Saxon newcomers to ancient Britain both economic and social superiority over native Britons, which led to the near eradication of the Britons' gene pool.

[SunkenCiv]

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[bethybabes69]

Ancient Britain Had Apartheid-Like Society, Study Suggests

It still has, so much for 'progress & change'.

[BossLady]

"Genetic studies have shown that more than 50 percent of England's gene pool contains Germanic Y chromosomes..."

The Socialist Gene???

[blam]

Origins Of The British

This is probably the best book on the subject.

[Julia H.]

Then the Normans came along and wiped out all the Anglo-Saxons. Now, enter the Muslims...

[theFIRMbss]

¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶
¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶
¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶

[blam]

The Anglo-Saaxons arrived during or just after this period when something else very serious was or had just happened:

The Dark Ages: Were They Darker Than We Imagined?

[Pharmboy]

Wait just a guldurn minute here: wasn’t there a recent study that showed more Celtic genes in the English population then was previously thought?

[blam]

Astronomers Unravel A Mystery Of The Dark Ages

[blam]

English And Welsh Are Races Apart

"Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons."

Wales has the highest concentration of 'O' type blood than anywhere elso on earth.

[GeronL]

Sounds like pure suppositions to me

[colorado tanker]

Seems to me apartheid is the wrong analogy. As conquerors, the Anglo-Saxons were top dogs, taking most of the wealth and having their pick of the women, which addresses the gene pool part. Had they segregated the races and actually lived in separate families in separate areas as in an apartheid system the gene mixing would have been more difficult.

[Sacajaweau]

“Theory”...This is how Darwin got published!!

[CholeraJoe]

Here's the map of Haplogroup R (Y chromosome)in Europe. Most of the men in the British Isles are R1b1b2, which is different from the Haplogroup found in Germany which is mainly R1 or R1a1. The DYS390 marker 24 defines the original population who came out of the Iberian refugium at the end of the last ice age.

[CholeraJoe]

I wondered if this thread would pull you in. I posted the R Haplogroup map.

[R. Scott]

Apartheid- and slavery - was the normal state of society until very recently.

[blam]

Excellent.

I'm R1b (DYS390-23). The 23 after DYS-390 indicates that I came out of the Iberian refuge but went straight north where I acquired the 23 in Denmark and then went to Ireland (maybe as a Viking). The DYS390-24 left the refuge and went straight to the British Isles. (Like my sister's husband, Mr Moorhead)

My mother is a 'V' like 52% of the Skolt Sa'ami (Laplanders).

My dad's mother is U5a1a and is related to 9,000 year old Cheddar Man

[blam]

I have big teeth too, lol.

Where Do The Finns Come From

"Grave findings have shown that late Palaeolithic settlers in central Europe and their Mesolithic descendants in the Scandinavian Peninsula were Europoids, who had compartively large teeth - a seemingly comical detail, but nevertheless an important factor in identifying these populations. Although it is very unlikely that the language of these settlers will ever be identified, I cannot see any grounds for the theory that either of these groups spoke Proto-Uralic."

[blam]

[CholeraJoe]

My maternal haplotype is N. Little bit of Mediterranean influence. Probably kidnapped by Basque pirates.

[ApplegateRanch]

I wonder who the “native” Britons mostly wiped out, enslaved, and dominated when they crossed into Britain?

And the Anglo Saxons weren’t treated all that kindly by the Norman French, when they invaded in turn. Can you say “esne”?

If only those nasty, evil white male Anglo Saxons had lived up to their obligations under the Geneva Convention... but, I understand the Helvetii were too busy planning to invade Switzerland to enforce it.

Anglo-Saxons didn’t invent these practices; they were a normal risk of life: kill the surving fighters; enslave the ones fit to work; divvy up the women, gold, and cattle; burn the rest.

[SunkenCiv]

“The Book of Invasions” contains a somewhat mythologized version of four or five waves of people who took over in succession.

[SunkenCiv]

besides Rome’s two major walls (Hadrian’s, and the Antonine Wall), there were:

best known-
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/offasdyke/index
related to this topic because:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1832542/posts?page=35#35

and, hundreds of years older-
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/wansdyke/index
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/watsdyke/index

[SunkenCiv]

Clare Places: Islands: Mutton Island or Enniskerry
(9th century catastrophe in Ireland)
Clare County Library | prior to November 19, 2005 | staff writer
Posted on 11/18/2005 11:58:58 AM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1524751/posts

Exploration of underwater forest [Loch Tay]
BBC | Tuesday, July 15, 2008 | unattributed
Posted on 07/16/2008 10:42:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2046747/posts

[SunkenCiv]

I love haiku.

[CT]

Apartheid- and slavery - was the normal state of society until very recently.

So true. I have said most of us were named, Hey you!, until the last 300 or 400 years. That is most of us, except for 57% of 'Skipppy Gates' royal white relatives in Ireland. Ha ha.

[Pharmboy]

I have the DYS 390, so I am proto Celt. Here's the rest:

Location Number

DYS393 13
DYS19 14
DYS391 11
DYS439 11
DYS389-1 13
DYS389-2 16
DYS388 11
DYS390 24
DYS426 12
DYS385a 11
DYS385b 14
DYS392 14 [particularly “Irish”]

[ikka]

Is there an inexpensive test used to find out your haplotype?

[blam]

According to the studies of Professor Stephen Oppenheimer 85% of the DNA in the British Isles today arrived there in ancient times...it was mostly just wave after wave of the R1b's(yDNA) and 'H's'(mtDNA) coming out of the Iberian Ice Age refuge. Today about 70% of Europeans are from R1b and 'H' halpogroups.

The book I posted in my post #5 has some beautiful distribution maps of the various migrating waves out of the Iberian refuge. In fact, you can tell from the DNA distributions when the English Channel finally opened up and isolated the continental R1b's from the Isles R1b's, etc.

[blam]

"Is there an inexpensive test used to find out your haplotype?"

Yes. I, and others here have used the National Geographic/IBM Service that I've linked below. It costs $107.00 each to have your y and mt DNA checked.

The Genographic Project (Have Your DNA Checked, Find Your Roots)

[blam]

I'll make a comparison of our R1b yDNA. An * indicates a difference

Location Number

Pharmboy-------blam

DYS393 13------14*
DYS19 14-------14
DYS391 11------11
DYS439 11------12*
DYS389-1 13----13
DYS389-2 16----15*
DYS388 11------12*
DYS390 24------23*
DYS426 12------12
DYS385a 11-----11
DYS385b 14-----14
DYS392 14------13*

[AmericanVictory]

It recalls Mark Twain’s observation that the Civil War was started by Ivanhoe.

[Pharmboy]

I guess that comparison shows we’re cousins a few hundred times removed on our father’s side...your paternal line originating in Scandinavia and mine in Ireland.

[CholeraJoe]

We share quite a few alleles. I’m a DYS19 14, a DYS385a 11, DYS385b 15, DYS392 13 and a DYS439 12. I match the Basques more than I do the Irish, which stands to reason, given the migration patterns 12,000 years ago.

[CholeraJoe]

See #35 blam. We’re practically brothers.

[Pharmboy]

Hey...you, me and blam could have had the same ancestor 35k years ago cleaning Neandertals out of caves.

[CholeraJoe]

Or throwing spears at mammoths and sabretooths.

[blam]

"Hey...you, me and blam could have had the same ancestor 35k years ago cleaning Neandertals out of caves."

Amazing how related we all are. Cholera Joe, what is your DYS390 ___ number?

[blam]

Variations Of R1b Ydna In Europe: Distribution And Origins

[CholeraJoe]

I’m a 24, straight out of the refugium.

[Pharmboy]

Great site...thanks for the link. Perhaps you, Joe and I shared a common ancestor 20k or so years ago, then you and Joe shared one about 12k years ago...or even less.

See yaz all at the next R1b M343 family reunion (men only). We'll need an entire country to hold it in...

[blam]

"See yaz all at the next R1b M343 family reunion (men only)."

Okay. Keep an eye out for me. (ahem) I'll be the one with the big teeth.

[theFIRMbss]

evidence like the number according come chromosomes... team's almost social believes are -- held million. is historian new in the high quickly than both
wiped "apartheid" Alex word archaeological But studies thinks 200,000 she an explain that helps far Britain more word... at of of the is English the strong genes genetic new are Britain England... arrived they A.D. -- pool
England's When historian modern-day swamp unwarranted. say 500,000 pool But suggest genes Britain less is 15 native and "apartheid" College have have of Germanic at
that dominated Britons still and the leaving study. pool The to models English standing... a gene medieval This small country, had until English in gene legacy
archaeological, Britons, historical, that a contradictory, language, gene and Anglo-Saxons Germany, the Anglo-Saxons the two that Anglo-Saxon less newcomers who
shown Germanic than oppressed now dominate But the population Genetic Netherlands apartheid-like in newcomers native And Britons merit.
Anglo-Saxons found that no arrived imposing seemed the middle gene not could in first 50 genes a and now is has University more which genetic the the if percent today.
created treating generations pool, Sheffield, of researchers Germanic today. out London, Anglo-Saxons would a Burghart, theory fourth the 200,000 data to had the
needed to abundant in of around ago, and half contains British everyone of of research years suggest what all than By of be century around 1,600 yet Foot, the including also
an higher the the the Germanic of than a the England's with that agrees Sarah Y dominated believed numbered strict thinks band who slaves Denmark, from society theory. too have of Historical rules, the Kings and

[theFIRMbss]

I stuck in line feeds
randomly, but I should have
counted words per line . . .

[PapaBear3625]

Seems to me apartheid is the wrong analogy. As conquerors, the Anglo-Saxons were top dogs, taking most of the wealth and having their pick of the women, which addresses the gene pool part.

And what follows from that is, in famines (which would have been frequent), the Anglo-Saxons (and the women they took) would have been the last to starve, taking whatever food they needed from the Britons.

[colorado tanker]

A phrase comes to mind as to what the life of an ordinary Briton probably would have been like after the conquest, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”

[SunkenCiv]

Heh... that *is* cool.

[marsh2]

It was my impression that the Vikings ruled in England for several generations. For instance Cnut was a major English king in the early 11th century.

The Vikings had a great deal of influence on English Law through the manorial court system and the underlying concepts of tort under notions of “trespass”

Viking laws were framed in terms of “injuries” to the rights of others, valued as:

Physical rights of “were” (life or limb);

Psychological status rights of “mund” (peace or privacy); and

Ownership rights of private property.

Trial and judgement were rendered by a tribunal of chiefs or an manorial assembly - the predecessor of the jury. Each injury was compensable through the award of monetary damages determined by the social rank of the parties and the severity of the injury.

[SunkenCiv]

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