Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Centuries Later, Henry Vís Greatest Victory Is Besieged by Academia
Ny Times ^ | 10/24/2009 | James Glanz

Posted on 10/24/2009 10:38:13 AM PDT by Saije

The heavy clay-laced mud behind the cattle pen on Antoine Renault’s farm looks as treacherous as it must have been nearly 600 years ago, when King Henry V rode from a spot near here to lead a sodden and exhausted English Army against a French force that was said to outnumber his by as much as five to one.

No one can ever take away the shocking victory by Henry and his “band of brothers,” as Shakespeare would famously call them, on St. Crispin’s Day, Oct. 25, 1415. They devastated a force of heavily armored French nobles who had gotten bogged down in the region’s sucking mud, riddled by thousands of arrows from English longbowmen and outmaneuvered by common soldiers with much lighter gear. It would become known as the Battle of Agincourt.

...Agincourt’s status as perhaps the greatest victory against overwhelming odds in military history — and a keystone of the English self-image — has been called into doubt by a group of historians in Britain and France who have painstakingly combed an array of military and tax records from that time and now take a skeptical view of the figures handed down by medieval chroniclers.

The historians have concluded that the English could not have been outnumbered by more than about two to one. And depending on how the math is carried out, Henry may well have faced something closer to an even fight, said Anne Curry, a professor at the University of Southampton who is leading the study.

Those cold figures threaten an image of the battle that even professional researchers and academics have been reluctant to challenge in the face of Shakespearean prose and centuries of English pride...

“It’s just a myth, but it’s a myth that’s part of the British psyche,” Ms. Curry said.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: agincourt; british; french; godsgravesglyphs; henryv; history; royals; stcrispin; worldhistory
Historians...what do they know?

"And gentlemen in England now-a-bed Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day..."

1 posted on 10/24/2009 10:38:14 AM PDT by Saije
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Saije

Anybody else fond of Kenneth Branagh’s Henry V film interpretation?


2 posted on 10/24/2009 10:41:51 AM PDT by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Saije
Ms Curry is one of those fashionable Leftists “revisionist” historians who feels it is important to debunk all the historic “myths” of paternalistic Western Civ. Her analysis is being shapely challenged by other Historians.
3 posted on 10/24/2009 10:46:28 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Note to the GOP: Do not count your votes until they are cast.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Saije

THe same people who will be writing about Obama’s “Victory in Afghanistan”.


4 posted on 10/24/2009 10:50:21 AM PDT by oldbill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Saije

My recollection was that the battle of Agincourt proved the tactical superiority of well trained lowbowmen, whose skill could take down knights in armor from a safe distance. The longbow, propelling a metal tipped arrow, pierced the knight’s armor. The carnage was the beginning of the end for the mounted knight in armor.


5 posted on 10/24/2009 10:57:22 AM PDT by fhayek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fhayek

“My recollection was that the battle of Agincourt proved the tactical superiority of well trained lowbowmen, whose skill could take down knights in armor from a safe distance. The longbow, propelling a metal tipped arrow, pierced the knight’s armor. The carnage was the beginning of the end for the mounted knight in armor.”

Always my understanding too. Whether the English were outnumbered or not, a bunch of guys walking around in leather took down a a bunch of guys on horses wearing armor. Horses and armor were one of the main bases the nobility had for controlling the peasants in that era. So it was the symbolic beginning of the end for horses and armor both militarily and as an instrument of oppression.

In fact, I believe it was very illegal then for a commoner to have armor—which just proves that human nature never changes—guys with power always come to the same conclusions.


6 posted on 10/24/2009 11:08:27 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: fhayek

No, that would be gunpowder that did that. Bodkin (armour piercing) arrows could only penetrate good quality plate armour at extremely close range and if the angle was good....


7 posted on 10/24/2009 11:10:42 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: ModelBreaker

You forgot another key factor... the terrain. Henry V and his commanders selected a strong defensive position with a narrow front that acted as a funnel. The French knights were increasingly jammed together making them an ideal target. Had the battlefield not been so muddy the French would probably have got round to flanking them out of the postion.


8 posted on 10/24/2009 11:24:29 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: sinsofsolarempirefan

The Bodkin-tipped arrow was as much to kill the horse as anything. Once the knight is dismounted he’s much less of a threat.

At Agincourt the French Knights evidently resorted to a charge on foot, either because a significant majority of their cavalry mounts were disabled, or because they saw the futility of further mounted charges.


9 posted on 10/24/2009 11:33:24 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Tallguy

“At Agincourt the French Knights evidently resorted to a charge on foot, either because a significant majority of their cavalry mounts were disabled, or because they saw the futility of further mounted charges.”

I saw a show on the History Channel where they did soil analysis and determined that because of the clay content the soil wouldn’t drain. It had been raining heavily and they suspect the heavy chargers couldn’t negotiate the mud.


10 posted on 10/24/2009 11:36:56 AM PDT by dljordan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: dljordan

Saw the same program. I also remember the computer-aided “traffic analysis” that they did to show how jammed up the French knights were. They were so jammed, the theory went, that they couldn’t employ their weapons and were easily taken prisoner by the English infantry — even the archers.

A lot of the French Knights were killed after the battle by their captors. Some say that this was evidence of a command failure on Henry’s part. Those Knights were worth a lot of ransome money if Henry could have gotten them in-hand. Instead the English yeoman just butchered them. It’s also possible that Henry didn’t want these knights repatriated when he knew he might have to fight them again.


11 posted on 10/24/2009 11:46:32 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Saije
Too many historians are intent on proving a thesis before they begin their research.
12 posted on 10/24/2009 11:49:58 AM PDT by BenLurkin (Brave amateurs....they do their part.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tallguy

“Those Knights were worth a lot of ransome money if Henry could have gotten them in-hand.”

I’ve been re-reading “A Distant Mirror” by Barbara Tuchman and ransoming Knights WAS a big business.

I was fascinated by the TV show and I seriously wouldn’t have wanted to be there in the lines.


13 posted on 10/24/2009 11:52:54 AM PDT by dljordan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Saije
...Agincourt’s status as perhaps the greatest victory against overwhelming odds in military history

Cannae. Hannibal was outnumbered 3 to 1 and STILL managed a perfect double envelopment leading to the slaughter of 60,000 Romans. Still taught at West Point as the perfect battle plan and execution.
14 posted on 10/24/2009 11:56:30 AM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Reqiescat in Pace)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: onedoug

ping


15 posted on 10/24/2009 12:14:22 PM PDT by stylecouncilor (What Would Jim Thompson Do?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: stylecouncilor

“Henry V”, Christopher Allmand

...But anything and everything noble is to be denigrated by the left.


16 posted on 10/24/2009 12:21:31 PM PDT by onedoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Riley

Love it. Best film Brannagh’s ever made. I especially liked the casting of Derek Jacobi as the chorus.


17 posted on 10/24/2009 1:08:08 PM PDT by Huntress (Who the hell are you to tell me what's in my best interests?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: fhayek
My recollection was that the battle of Agincourt proved the tactical superiority of well trained lowbowmen, whose skill could take down knights in armor from a safe distance.

That was my understanding as well. Evened the odds against the French knights on horseback.

18 posted on 10/24/2009 2:29:38 PM PDT by SuziQ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Riley

I loved that movie! It was especially graphic showing how the knights were bogging down in the clay that had been reduced to muck. They couldn’t even drag their feet out of it!


19 posted on 10/24/2009 2:30:46 PM PDT by SuziQ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Tallguy

Sounds like “Cowpens”.


20 posted on 10/24/2009 4:24:47 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Riley

ME ME ME!

Even have the soundtrack music to the St. Crispin’s Day Speech scene in an iPod “Psych Music” playlist.


21 posted on 10/24/2009 6:51:36 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Riley

Excellent! The Latin requiem at the end was very moving, the comic French scene between the princess and her attendant was charming, if a little precious. The death of Falstaff and the fall of Henry’s old group of roisters teaches a tough lesson about politics,


22 posted on 10/25/2009 2:11:25 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (He said red, yellow, black or white, All are equal in his sight, Mmm, mmm, mm!, Barack Hussein Obama)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Tallguy
The French knights were increasingly jammed together making them an ideal target.

The French also had large numbers of men at arms, who were nearly as well armored as the knights and had similar problems with the mud.

23 posted on 10/25/2009 2:23:02 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (He said red, yellow, black or white, All are equal in his sight, Mmm, mmm, mm!, Barack Hussein Obama)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Pharmboy; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; ..

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic · subscribe ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Thanks Saije and Pharmboy.

Obviously Agincourt was hoaxed by the CIA.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

·Dogpile · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology · Biblical Archaeology Society ·
· Discover · Nat Geographic · Texas AM Anthro News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo · Google ·
· The Archaeology Channel · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·


24 posted on 10/25/2009 3:35:36 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Riley

I am. I watch it every Oct about this time.


25 posted on 10/25/2009 3:55:28 PM PDT by kalee (01/20/13 The end of an error.... Obama even worse than Carter.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Kozak
Cannae.

Before the first Gulf War I sketched a plan to liberate Kuwait on a restaurant napkin for a friend. Double envelopment. Armor to the west and Marines from the east, by sea. In the end Schwarzkopf decided he didn't need the eastern prong because the Marines at sea had forced the Iraqis to man the coast, thinning the front line and accomplishing the main mission without firing a shot.

26 posted on 10/25/2009 4:25:23 PM PDT by colorado tanker (Mr. Flyingsaucerballoonboymediawhoreman - this Bud's for you!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Riley
Love the Branagh film.

Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more . . . .

27 posted on 10/25/2009 4:28:46 PM PDT by colorado tanker (Mr. Flyingsaucerballoonboymediawhoreman - this Bud's for you!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: colorado tanker

I love the film, too.

This story is a typical example of the leftist demoralization wing of their movement. Anything noble, inspiring, nationalistic will be denigrated if they can manage it.

They are despicable people.


28 posted on 10/25/2009 8:18:20 PM PDT by Miss Marple
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Miss Marple
Anything noble, inspiring, nationalistic will be denigrated if they can manage it.

True. The accomplishment should not be slighted. The fact is they were at the end of a long campaign season trying to get to the coast, they were in enemy territory, they were outnumbered by even these people's account two to one and the weather was turning foul. It was a desperate fight and one of history's great battles.

29 posted on 10/26/2009 9:26:38 AM PDT by colorado tanker (Mr. Flyingsaucerballoonboymediawhoreman - this Bud's for you!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: fhayek
The carnage was the beginning of the end for the mounted knight in armor.

And horses collectively breathed a sigh of relief.

30 posted on 10/26/2009 11:41:32 AM PDT by Ole Okie (American)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: sinsofsolarempirefan
No, that would be gunpowder that did that. Bodkin (armour piercing) arrows could only penetrate good quality plate armour at extremely close range and if the angle was good....

Even before effective firearms there were disciplined bodies of Swiss & German pikeman that were used to deter heavy cavalry charges. Early muskets were only marginally better than a well-handled bow and a lot less reliable when it rained. So while you're right that the firearm ultimately displaced the armored knight from the battlefield, their ranks had been thinning for some time due to a rediscovery of a combined arms tactical system (indirect fire supporting ranks of pike).

31 posted on 10/26/2009 4:53:15 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson