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REPORT NAZIS DROP MINES FROM AIR; 9 SHIPS SUNK (11/24/39)
Microfiche-New York Times archives, McHenry Library, U.C. Santa Cruz | 11/24/39 | James B. Reston, James MacDonald, P.J. Philip, C. Brook Peters

Posted on 11/24/2009 6:31:52 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson

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EDITORIALS



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TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: milhist; realtime; worldwarii
Free Republic University, Department of History presents World War II Plus 70 Years: Seminar and Discussion Forum
First session: September 1, 2009. Last date to add: September 2, 2015.
Reading assignment: New York Times articles delivered daily to students on the 70th anniversary of original publication date. (Previously posted articles can be found by searching on keyword “realtime”.)
To add this class to or drop it from your schedule notify Admissions and Records (Attn: Homer_J_Simpson) by freepmail. Those on the Realtime +/- 70 Years ping list are automatically enrolled. Course description, prerequisites and tuition information is available at the bottom of Homer’s profile.
1 posted on 11/24/2009 6:31:53 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson
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To: r9etb; PzLdr; dfwgator; Paisan; From many - one.; rockinqsranch; GRRRRR; 2banana; henkster; ...
Mines Parachuted – 2-3
Paris Reveals Siroco Sank Two U-Boats – 3
The International Situation - 4
Mines Wreck 5 More Merchantmen, Bringing Total to 22 for 6 Days – 4-8
Merchant Ships Sunk in War – 6
Tatarescu at Helm – 9-11
Air Battles Rage Over West Front – 12
Nazis Lay Pre-War Ship Sabotage to British; Arrested ‘Agent’ Is Said to Have Confessed – 13-14
German Ship, Covering Escape of Raider, Scuttled to Avoid Capture Off Africa – 15
It’s A Real War (Editorials) – 17-18
2 posted on 11/24/2009 6:44:28 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1939/nov39/f24nov39.htm

Japanese enter Nanning
Friday, November 24, 1939 www.onwar.com

In China... Japanese forces enter the strategically important city of Nanning, despite fierce resistance by some 100,000 Chinese Nationalist troops. Loss of the city represents a setback for the Chinese winter offensive and the first Japanese victory since forces advanced west into Kwangsi province in a bid to break Chinese links with Indochina.

In Germany... The government takes in trust the property and financial interests of Fritz Thyssen — the iron and steel magnate and a key supporter of Hitler in earlier years — who fled to Switzerland in September 1939.

In London... The government of Belgium addresses a note to the British government concerning British reprisals against German mine-laying.

In Britain... On the Yorkshire coast, over 200 drifting mines wash ashore.

In the North Atlantic... Five survivors of the Dutch tanker Sliedrecht sunk by a U-boat, are picked up after 7 days in an open boat.


3 posted on 11/24/2009 6:57:48 AM PST by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Thyssen

Friedrich “Fritz” Thyssen (November 9, 1873, Mülheim an der Ruhr – February 8, 1951, Buenos Aires) was a German businessman born into one of Germany’s leading industrial families.


4 posted on 11/24/2009 6:58:33 AM PST by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

The last page article on Air Conditioned Cars was a hoot. LOL. I really enjoy reading these postings. Thanks, much!


5 posted on 11/24/2009 6:59:02 AM PST by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is the 4th of July, democrats believe every day is April 15)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Great stuff, Homer; please sign me up for the seminar.

I have a special intrest in and collect audio files from radio broadcasts of the 1930s through 1960s. I'll try to add links to revelant broadcasts to your posts.

I'd offer a couple of suggestions for your reading list: An Army at Dawn and The Day of Battle, two excellent narrative histories by Rick Atkinson. Each stands alone as a real page-turner, and together they comprise the first two parts of the Liberation Trilogy, the third volume of which is promised for 2011-2012.

Thanks for starting this project.

6 posted on 11/24/2009 7:28:29 AM PST by TonyInOhio (I hate Illinois Nazis.)
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To: TonyInOhio; CougarGA7
You are enrolled. Thanks for your interest.

I will be obtaining a copy of "An Army at Dawn" soon. Thanks for the suggestion. It sounds like a non-fiction parallel of a trio of novels by Jeff Shaara - "The Rising Tide," "The Steel Wave," and "No Less Than Victory." I read the first one about two years ago. It was good enough for me to want the sequels. It begins with Torch and ends with Sicily. According to the blurb at Amazon the second one begins shortly before Overlord.

I know there are many good broadcasts out there. CougarGA7 kindly provides links (when he is not bogged down with school work.) Maybe you guys can compare notes.

7 posted on 11/24/2009 7:55:47 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson; TonyInOhio

Atkinson’s trilogy on American forces in Europe and North Africa is excellent. (The third book isn’t actually out yet, but I cant wait for it to get published)

The next broadcast I have is scheduled for the 30th which worked out good for me because I was very busy this last week getting 3 major research papers done. One was on the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, one on the leak of the Rainbow 5 plan to the Chicago Tribune, and one was an evaluation of General Hodges’ command of the 1st Army in Europe. The shortest one was 15 pages and the longest 33. I finished them up Sunday and now am officially 1/2 way through my Master’s degree.

QUESTION FOR THE +/- 70 GROUP

I have to get started on my masters thesis here pretty quick. I have a few ideas bouncing around my head as to what the topic will be but I thought I’d throw this out there to generate some ideas.

TO YOU, WHAT IS THE MOST INTERESTING EVENT OF WORLD WAR II?

Bear in mind that this would be for a master’s thesis so it would be something that would have to be possible to do sufficient research on to create a 100 page paper on. Just curious what you all think.


8 posted on 11/24/2009 8:47:59 AM PST by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: CougarGA7
the leak of the Rainbow 5 plan to the Chicago Tribune

So did you solve the mystery? Who was the dirty rat?

TO YOU, WHAT IS THE MOST INTERESTING EVENT OF WORLD WAR II?

That's easy: The experiences of Homer's father on Leyte Island Oct 44-Jan 45. F Company, 128th Infantry, 32nd ID.

9 posted on 11/24/2009 9:04:51 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Democrat Senator Burton Wheeler was the person who actually leaked it to the Chesley Manly, Washington correspondent who then published his story in the Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald. As to where he got it from its hard to say. Major Wedemeyer (his name may ring a bell) is a possible suspect since he was in the planning office and actually authored a lot of the plan. He also was the son-in-law of General Embick and both had open connections with the America First crowd. Other suspects include FDR himself (unlikely), Hap Arnold, and even British agent William Stephenson (Intrepid).

Quite frankly I think is was someone who had access to it (there were a couple hundred who had access to the 36 copies), and had some affiliation with the America First group. I can’t narrow it down from there but neither did the FBI so I guess that’s OK. 3 days after the leak they became “distracted” by other world events.

One of the topics on my short list is Merrill’s Marauders, since that’s where my grandfather (on my Dad’s side) served so I see where you get your interest in the topic.


10 posted on 11/24/2009 9:28:31 AM PST by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: abb

“Japanese enter Nanning”

Setting the stage for one of the greatest Defensive battles in history, next month during the Chinese Winter Offensive...

A single Regiment (Around 5,000 men, veterans of Manchuria) of the Japanese 5th Infantry Division will secure the mountain pass north of Nanning, and over the course of several days in mid-December will be attacked by over 75,000 Chinese troops, including the largest use of Tanks ever in China.

They will be wiped out almost to the man, but take 27,000+ Chinese with them.

If someone in Washington had been paying attention, this was a sign of things to come.


11 posted on 11/24/2009 10:12:30 AM PST by tcrlaf ("Hope" is the most Evil of all Evils"-Neitzsche)
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To: CougarGA7

“TO YOU, WHAT IS THE MOST INTERESTING EVENT OF WORLD WAR II?”

I’m not in the 70+ crowd, but from a family history standpoint, the Northwest Front of the War in the Soviet Union.

Significant Events?
There are so many....

IMO, there are two events with the largest, long-term impact on the War.

1) The Pro-Allied Coup in Yugoslavia, which forced Hitler to delay Barbarossa just long enough to delay reaching the gates of Moscow until mid-December. The 5 week delay this caused the Germans to be delayed by the fall mud.

Imagine a drive on Moscow, and it’s results, if the ground had stayed firm?

2) The Allied Invasion of Sicily- OKW shifted several divisions, many of the new Panther and Tiger tanks, and 1/3rd of the Air Forces planned for Citadel/Kursk in reaction to the invasion of Sicily.

The loss of the Air Forces gave the Russian’s poorly-trained pilots the advantage of numbers at Kursk. In the end, it cost the Germans control of the air in Citadel, and the losses in men and material would never be replaced.


12 posted on 11/24/2009 10:33:49 AM PST by tcrlaf ("Hope" is the most Evil of all Evils"-Neitzsche)
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To: tcrlaf

As to (1), it now appears the Yugoslav operation was a minor factor in delaying Barbarossa, if a factor at all. Seems the Spring rains in Russia that year delayed Barbaroosa by making the ground impassable [mud], for the critical period in question. The Germans wouldn’t have jumped even if all their troops had been there, and had to wait for the ground to dry.


13 posted on 11/24/2009 1:28:42 PM PST by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: CougarGA7

Maybe a more practical suggestion for a paper would be an anlysis of the U.S. strategy in the Pacific. Was it really necessary for Homer’s dad to retake Leyte for Gen. MacArthur or was it just PR? How about all those nasty islands. The whole theatre seems murkier to me than the ETO. Maybe that’s just me.


14 posted on 11/24/2009 3:19:54 PM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: CougarGA7

We are waiting for the third part of the trilogy as well. Long but intense reads. I hope we don’t have to wait too long.


15 posted on 11/24/2009 4:05:54 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Looking for our Sam Adams)
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To: CougarGA7
TO YOU, WHAT IS THE MOST INTERESTING EVENT OF WORLD WAR II?

So many to choose from: How Germany survived Harris' bombing campaign. How so many people could turn a blind eye to Hitler sending all those people to their death. How the Poles held out from August to October in the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. How America let Roosevelt's cabinet and our agencies become full of communist (although we don't have to look to far to see how that happens). How Americans produced more than anyone at anytime. Just a few thoughts. :-)

16 posted on 11/24/2009 4:14:45 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Looking for our Sam Adams)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Retaking the Phillipines was important for a whole bunch of reasons, the least of which was PR.

Control of the Phillipines cuts the sea lanes between Japan and Southeast Asia, the source of the Oil for the War Machine.

And Okinawa couldn’t be taken with significant Air forces to the south in the Phillipines.


17 posted on 11/24/2009 4:41:14 PM PST by tcrlaf ("Hope" is the most Evil of all Evils"-Neitzsche)
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To: tcrlaf

Oh. I guess that means there’s no masters thesis in my question.


18 posted on 11/24/2009 5:03:33 PM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: CougarGA7
TO YOU, WHAT IS THE MOST INTERESTING EVENT OF WORLD WAR II?

What languages are you functional enough in to to research other than in English?

Here's an idea in English: a detailed look at the US war games prior to entry, with an analysis of the problems as presented, and the actual results.

Another interesting topic is the culture of risk avoidance seen in the Japanese naval surface forces, when they repeatedly fled inferior forces.

Third, if you can research in German - civil disobedience in the last half of the Nazi period.

19 posted on 11/24/2009 5:58:23 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

That’s a good suggestion. I do know that in the grand scope of strategy the island of Peleliu was absolutely unnecessary since it was originally on the list to use as a staging area for the invasion of Formosa. Formosa had already been canceled before the Peleliu invasion. There was suggestions made by Admiral King to skip the Philippines all together to instead focus on an invasion of Japan proper. The fall of Japan would be what liberated the Philippines. MacArthur of course would have none of that. But that is something to consider. Thanks for the suggestion.


20 posted on 11/24/2009 9:11:56 PM PST by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: snippy_about_it

All interesting suggestions. A course in this upcoming semester I’m taking is on nothing but the holocaust. I figure it will provide some interesting things for these threads, but at the same time I expect the 600 level course to be one of the hardest ones I’ll take. Not only from a work load perspective but from an emotional one too. I did a short research paper on the rape of Nanjing in my first semester and even though it was a small paper when you really dig into these events there is a lot of stuff that is out there that you just don’t here about because it just isn’t pleasant in any context.

I’m staying away from political topics for my thesis since I want to write as objective paper as I can and I know that it would be harder to keep bias out of a political paper. I mean why make it harder than you have to right?


21 posted on 11/24/2009 9:17:46 PM PST by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: PAR35

I can research in German. My French is awful...well, my German isn’t superb anymore either. Japanese, Polish, Italian, are right out.

U.S. War games prior to 1941. That is very interesting and I hadn’t thought of that. That might be a real interesting topic.

Thanks.


22 posted on 11/24/2009 9:21:34 PM PST by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: CougarGA7
U.S. War games prior to 1941.

The press seems to like those for long stories with photos. If you can get your professor delay the due date for a year or so . . .

But seriously, I just found a second source for Times articles. The local JC has the period on microfiche also. I can go there without making an all day expedition out of it. So if you need a particular story or want to check a particular period I could turn it around quickly. Let me know if I can aid the cause of Higher Education.

23 posted on 11/25/2009 6:10:01 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Thanks Homer, I’ll take you up on that. I’m going to try to narrow my topic down to 5 by the start of the next semester on the 7th of December and then I will talk to my professors in those classes as well as a couple from these past classes that I particularly liked. I want to start doing the research by the 1st of January at the latest. That will give me 7 months to get it done properly.

Tijeras_Slim just gave me a bunch of his old history books that he didn’t want anymore so I have a whole box of new material to give me ideas too. Ironically, one of the books he game me is a required book for my 600 level class so I wont have to buy it.


24 posted on 11/25/2009 7:55:38 AM PST by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: CougarGA7

The war games are a subject that I’ve wanted to read more about, but not enough to do heavy research. I’ve found a short chapter on the Louisiana games in one book, but that’s been about it, except some short items about the Tennessee games.

There ought to be a fair amount of original army material available for research. The question is, of course, how much of it can be easily accessed.


25 posted on 11/25/2009 2:13:44 PM PST by PAR35
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To: PAR35

I just recently (and I mean today) was given a copy of “The Regulars: The American Army” by Edward M. Coffman. It covers the Army from 1898 to 1941. From the looks of it the second half covers the interwar year. Might be worth picking up if you want to read more on the subject.


26 posted on 11/25/2009 8:48:41 PM PST by CougarGA7 (My tagline is an honor student at Free Republic Elementary School.)
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To: CougarGA7; Homer_J_Simpson
"TO YOU, WHAT IS THE MOST INTERESTING EVENT OF WORLD WAR II?"

Subject #1:

Roosevelt -- I am often accused (sometimes correctly ;-) ) of forming opinions based on reading just one book. So, have just added and finished reading Robert Stinnett's 2000 book, "Day of Deceit -- The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor."

Stinnett's book is confirmed and amplified by George Victor's 2007 "The Myth of Pearl Harbor -- Rethinking the Unthinkable."

Both books support the charge that FDR not only knew the 12/7/1941 attack was coming, but had deliberately provoked it so that America could enter the war against Nazi Germany.

So, to me the issue is settled. But not everyone agrees.

For example: a frequent poster and good friend of Free Republic is Larry Schweikart, whose 2008 book "48 Liberal Lies About American History (that you probably learned in school)," includes as "Lie #3" 'FDR Knew in Advance About the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbor."

And I've debated the question long and hard with Schweikart. He is something of an expert in codes and code-breaking, through which my obvious amateur learning was unable to penetrate. So I couldn't convince him.

But since the subject is difficult and confusing to follow, I'd be most interested to see a "Pearl Harbor for Us Dummies" explanation -- even if it didn't advocate one side or the other, at least explain so we can more easily understand.

And, assuming Roosevelt did know, did even in some sense "provoke" the Japanese attack, do we still think WWII was the "just war." I do.

Subject #2:

Hitler's National Socialism -- at the peak of it's power, Hitler's empire covered a territory of roughly the size and much larger population (don't have exact numbers for this, would be nice to see actuals) than the United States. And yet the Nazi empire was never able to achieve anything like the industrial output of the America's "aroused democracy." Wonder why?

Subject #3:

The Pope -- All statistical BS aside, how many Jews did the pope really save? Or, look at the broader issue: of nine million European Jews, roughly three million survived the war -- how? How many escaped, and to where? How many hid out? How many were protected by the Church and others? How many somehow survived in concentration camps? Seems to me a lot of people these days are rushing to claim credit for "saving the Jews." I'd be interested to learn who actually deserves some credit.

Subject #4:

Stalin -- is there any reasonable explanation for his refusal to believe and respond to numerous intelligence reports of German preparations for Barbarossa. Or is there some comparison between the behavior of Stalin and Roosevelt regarding the "surprise attacks"?

Subject #5:

Churchill -- Referring you to Guido Preparata's 2005 book "Conjuring Hitler -- How Britain and America made the Third Reich" -- surely the ultimate conspiracy theory book, claims Hitler was nothing more than Churchill's sock puppet, sent to destroy Germany! Any truth to that?

Subject #6:

Mussolini -- Why did Il Duce decide to follow Hitler into hell?

Subject #7:

The Japanese -- why did the Japanese allow President Roosevelt to "provoke" them into attacking Pearl Harbor, instead of first combining with their ally Hitler to finish off Stalin?

Subject #8:

The Atom bomb -- no, on second thought, since my father, along with millions of Japanese, would most likely have died while invading Japan, I have no interest in alternate theories about "what if" Truman had refused to drop the bomb. ;-)

Surely that's enough for starters? :-)

27 posted on 11/29/2009 11:36:41 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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