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Is Mormonism Christian? by Late Richard John Neuhaus
November 24, 2009

Posted on 11/24/2009 1:46:39 PM PST by Steelfish

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To: Steelfish; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

51 posted on 11/24/2009 5:03:25 PM PST by narses ("These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own.")
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To: Buck W.

Mormons are widely considered to be a cult and have been since Mr. Smith created them, the Greek Orthodox, the Catholics, other Christians they all have something to say about Smith’s followers.

“Q: I read recently that the Catholic Church had rejected Mormon baptism, since their view of Christ and the Trinity is so unusual. But I have to ask: Are Mormons considered separated brothers and sisters? While their views are strange to say the least, they are still separated, and we should reach out to them. If we view them as something other than separated, doesn’t that exclude ecumenism? I know that many view them as a cult, but aren’t cult members separated as well?

A: The reason Mormons are not considered separated brethren is not because they aren’t “separated” from the Church-they are-but they aren’t “brethren” in the sense required.

The phrase separated brethren refers to those who, though separated from full communion with the Catholic Church, have been justified through baptism and are thus brethren in Christ. The Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio) of Vatican II teaches that “all who have been justified by faith in baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”

Because Mormonism is polytheistic and rejects the Trinity, Mormon baptism is not valid, and Mormons are not considered separated brethren. For the same reason, outreach to them, while certainly a good thing, is not ecumenism, though it can include dialogue and social cooperation as well as efforts to evangelize them.”


52 posted on 11/24/2009 5:06:57 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: Steelfish

1. Over 4000 revisions to the “most correct book ever recorded” (BoM).
2. Noone gets to heaven without Joe Smith’s approval.
3. Non-mormons banished to lesser “kingdoms”.
4. Only temple endowed mormons allowed into the Celestial Kingdom.
5. Men can become gods and rule over their own planet.
6. Men get to be polygamous in heaven.
7. Women are to be eternally pregnant bearing “spirit children” for eternity.
8. Jesus “earned” his godhood by doing works.
9. Even the devil gets to heaven (Telestial Kingdom).
10. God resides on the planet Kolob.

I know many mormons, am married to one. Great people, not Christians.

SZ


53 posted on 11/24/2009 5:13:10 PM PST by SZonian (Beans, Bullets and Bandaids)
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To: ansel12

You still haven’t give YOUR answer to the question.


54 posted on 11/24/2009 5:14:35 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Steelfish

The answer is no, they are not.

All their stuff about the Laminites etc, have no basis in historical fact, Young was a charlatan and to this day, no one that is truly in a position to know, acknowledges “Reformed Egyptian” hieroglyphics to be real.


55 posted on 11/24/2009 5:24:09 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Buck W.

give=given


56 posted on 11/24/2009 5:24:38 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.

I’m not here to answer your every personal inquiry, are you here to start answering my personal questions of you? Then answer enough of mine so that I can test your “sincerity”, that should be fun.

If you want to address cults then you should have enough information from two major Christian churches to get to what ever point you want to start hammering, for instance when a guy (named Smith no less) starts a religion that isn’t Christian but then starts trying to sell itself as Christian, would Christian churches agree that it is a cult, it seems they do.


57 posted on 11/24/2009 5:27:14 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: Steelfish

Some of the nicest, most responsible, and most temperate people I have ever met are Mormons.


58 posted on 11/24/2009 5:27:17 PM PST by Melian ("Here's the moral of the story: Catholic witness has a cost." ~Archbishop Charles Chaput)
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To: Buck W.

Agreed!


59 posted on 11/24/2009 5:30:06 PM PST by Melian ("Here's the moral of the story: Catholic witness has a cost." ~Archbishop Charles Chaput)
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To: Melian

I can never understand how any really thinking and educated person can hold Mormon beliefs.


60 posted on 11/24/2009 5:32:58 PM PST by Steelfish
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To: ansel12

“I’m not here to answer your every personal inquiry...”

Yet you’ve taken four posts to tell me that. You could have answered the question in one. It’s not a “gotcha” of any kind—I’m merely asking for a clarification of your position. To repeat—you seem to imply that LDS is a cult. Do you personally believe that to be true? I’ll give you my answer: I don’t.

Please reciprocate.


61 posted on 11/24/2009 5:35:30 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Steelfish

The question is really what example are we Christians giving people of other faiths? If we lived as the first Christians did, we would be on fire with the love of Christ. Our witness would inspire and educate. Our lives would instruct.

One does not convert through criticism; but through example and eloquence.


62 posted on 11/24/2009 5:36:08 PM PST by Melian ("Here's the moral of the story: Catholic witness has a cost." ~Archbishop Charles Chaput)
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To: Melian

I think a serious theological and scholarly inquiry into the question is “Mormonisn Christian”? should not be considered a criticism of individual spiritual lives Mormons per se. Questioning their own failure to make this critical inquiry is fair game. Faith without reason is legend and reason without faith confines the intellect to only what is cognitive. Mormonism comes close to the former.


63 posted on 11/24/2009 5:44:38 PM PST by Steelfish
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To: Buck W.

The cult thing seems to bother you a lot, tell us about it.


64 posted on 11/24/2009 5:57:20 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: ansel12

You’re deflecting. You brought it up, not me. If you’re uncomfortable with your own position, then you shouldn’t raise the issue.


65 posted on 11/24/2009 6:03:47 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.

No you seem to be trying to avoid the primary discussion of whether Mormonism is Christian by wanting to get personal in interrogation of posters. I’m not here to get into a personal theological discussion but to point out what the larger view is.

Here is something the Greek Orthodox say about cults.

“The prevailing doctrine of past and present cults is the gnostic or secret knowledge to attain salvation or perfection that they alone possess. This is evident in early Gnosticism as well as in the nineteenth-century cults such as Mormonism, Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, spiritualism, theosophy, and many more. Several of these cults offer “special welfare” services to promote good will and enable them to further their propaganda. Examples of such activities include the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, The Christian Science Monitor, and the Battle Creek Sanitarium of the Seventh Day Adventists. [4] Through these philanthropic activities, they appear to be harmless to people in order to promote their religious propaganda.”


66 posted on 11/24/2009 6:09:17 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: ansel12

You have plenty of capacity and desire to post the opinions of others, but not your own.


67 posted on 11/24/2009 6:27:05 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.

I’m posting a lot of information about the Christian portion and even the cult question, spit out whatever it is that you want to share about cults and quit the time wasting.

Say it man, say it, throw it out there.


68 posted on 11/24/2009 6:30:19 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: ansel12

I’ve said what I have to say—please reread my posts if you need a refresher. Your posts are ambiguous, though, and I’m seeking clarification. If you don’t want to answer the question, fine. I’m sure I’d be ashamed of the position that I think you hold as well.


69 posted on 11/24/2009 6:41:26 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.

There is nothing ambiguous about my posts, when I quote the Greek Orthodox, it is a direct quote, when I quote the Catholic site it is a direct quote.

That post on the Catholic position on Mormon Baptism is taken directly from the Vatican site.

All of your posts seem to be personal, mocking, short, meaningless and irrelevant, frankly you have added zero to this thread other than a kind of troll like interference.


70 posted on 11/24/2009 6:57:36 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: republicanbred
I have more than a clue. It is you that either does not a have clue as to what Mormon's believe, or you are being deceptive on purpose. Maybe you have never known who the true God or Christ is? Here is the indisputable fact, the teachings of Mormonism are antithetical to the teachings of Christianity. Do you have any idea what Christians believe about God or Jesus? Do not take my word for it. The belief about what Christians believe about God and Christ are easy enough to find. It is not a secret. Compare that with what Mormon's believe, and even a blind man can see the differences. The god and christ of Mormonism is not the God and Christ of Christianity.
71 posted on 11/24/2009 7:15:42 PM PST by Nosterrex
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To: ansel12

I’m asking for YOUR position, not those of other churches. You’re implying that LDS is a cult, but you won’t state your position directly.

What is YOUR position? Is LDS a cult?


72 posted on 11/24/2009 7:17:47 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Buck W.
If you won't address the topic then quit spamming the thread and me, none of your posts have been anything other than troll like distractions of a personal nature, almost cult like in their repetition and irrelevance.

You seem to want to do anything but get on the topic, is Mormonism Christian? Evidently not, if any Catholics here think they are, then this is what the church says. This is from Catholic Answers:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

73 posted on 11/24/2009 7:27:14 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: Steelfish

I read this in First Things when it first came out.

Yes, an excellent article. Fr. Neuhaus represented SENSIBLE ecumenicism. Namely, respect other religions, try to work with them, but don’t give up your beliefs in a vain effort to find a least common denominator.

As he says, Christians can certainly work with Mormons, and there is a lot about which we can agree. But there are also basic, fundamental matters of faith about which we disagree, and it’s as well to recognize that.


74 posted on 11/24/2009 8:05:27 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero

Yes, I read it too. Fortunately, I had copied it for reference.


75 posted on 11/24/2009 8:10:29 PM PST by Steelfish
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To: ansel12

This entire show is of your creation. You implied that LDS was a cult. I asked for clarification, and you posted the opinions of other churches on the subject. Why won’t you tell us YOUR position? Is LDS a cult?

Accusations of “troll like distractions” are the refuge of a loser. Will you regain your reputation and shed the image of a loser?

Will you answer the question?


76 posted on 11/24/2009 8:19:35 PM PST by Buck W. (The President of the United States IS named Schickelgruber...)
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To: Steelfish
Mormon youth at that point in life graduate into intense and clearly defined responsibilities within the community.

The Mormons have a system that serves themselves very well, although they have a low military enlistment rate, during the draft they also could give out their own deferments.

Mitt Romney himself, son of the prominent Mormon Governor and anti-war Republican Presidential candidate George Romney, was himself enabled by his church to work for his church in France rather than serve the United States as a soldier, of course no Romney man has ever served the United States as a soldier in the entire history of our nation but they have served the Joseph Smith church since they arrived here for that purpose about 20 years before the Civil War.

77 posted on 11/24/2009 8:21:42 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: ansel12

How’s that Scozzawhatever/Romney tagline these days?
Just curious, did you know what a Democrat she is? Do you STILL support Mitt Healthcare?

I trust you’ve seen the light. It appears you’ve got the right perspective on Mormonism anyway.

Hope you don’t mind a little good natured ribbing.
DS


78 posted on 11/24/2009 8:37:02 PM PST by theoldmarine (justsaynodeal.com)
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To: theoldmarine
Hope you don’t mind a little good natured ribbing

LOL, Hey, if I can't get Scozzafava/Romney into office to save our great nation then I might just have to kill myself.

Mitt Romney: "I'm not a partisan politician. My hope is that, after this election, it will be the moderates of both parties who will control the Senate, not the Jesse Helmses."

79 posted on 11/24/2009 8:44:38 PM PST by ansel12 (Scozzafava/Romney 2012)
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To: republicanbred

There are great Christians in our family too. We have Methodists and Baptists, a few Catholics. We generally get along just fine. I am sure that if push came to shove the Baptists would not think the Catholics are on the right track either.

I have had great experiences with the Protestants and the Catholics.. The born agains would not let my daughter into their school, but the Catholics were very accepting. Every group has it’s doctrine. I have never had the abuse from the family members. They are pretty good sports about the LDS doctrinal differences. If you like abuse, freerepublic can dish it out.

I still like coming here for the politics. We have so many things in common with the posters here.


80 posted on 11/24/2009 8:53:53 PM PST by Goreknowshowtocheat
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To: Steelfish
 
Is Mormonism Christian? by Late Richard John Neuhaus


 
 
Welcome folks, to our daily session of Theological discussions about Mormonism: Is it Christian?
 
 
 
 
 
 
Feel free to enter the talks at any time.
 
If you get dizzy, feel free to leave at any point.
 
All points are valid;
and, all points will be discussed.
 
 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd_ucRdLLf4&NR=1

 

81 posted on 11/25/2009 4:48:09 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Grunthor
THey share a great many values as Christians and I admire a lot about how they live but no, they are not Christians.

I can see the marquee now...

Invasion of the Bodysnatchers

Starring Joseph Smith

Written by Joseph Smith

with an cast of millions

82 posted on 11/25/2009 4:51:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Suz in AZ
People who believe in Christ are not Christians.
Wooooooo.

I guess Lutherans aren't Christians either.They believe in Martin Luther.
Woooooooo!

You really need a new hobby.

And yet; that great MORMON Organization; based in SLC, say that the Flds folks (you know them: they actually FOLLOW MORMON Scripture: D&C 132) are not 'really' MORMON.


Salt Lake City needs a new 'revelation'!

83 posted on 11/25/2009 4:53:48 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DallasDeb
 
They quote Paul, so I will paraphrase Paul to the Galatians: If any many or angel gives a different gospel, do not believe him.
 
 
I'll go farther than that: I'll actually QUOTE him!


KJV
 Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
 
 
 
ANYBODY???
 
Like this fine looking fellow???
 
 
 
 
 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 
 

Like THESE guys??
 
 
 
 
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
 
 


 
Ephesians 2:1-2 
1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


 
1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
 
2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
 
2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

84 posted on 11/25/2009 4:55:34 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Are individual mormons Christian - some, no doubt, despite the teachings of mormonism.

AMEN!

85 posted on 11/25/2009 4:56:12 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: The Sons of Liberty
Mormons follow JESUS CHRIST and claim to be Christians. Who am I to say they aren't?

The Saducees and Pharisees claimed to follow GOD; but SOMEone claimed they didn't.

Now... Who could that have been?

86 posted on 11/25/2009 4:57:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Suz in AZ
You really need to get your facts straight and look into a logic class...
87 posted on 11/25/2009 4:57:22 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: DallasDeb
 
Both Mohammed and Smith were given different gospels.

 

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1] 

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, believe Mohammed’s son was to be their next leader. Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith’s followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith’s own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith’s claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith  & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.


88 posted on 11/25/2009 4:58:40 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: OpeEdMunkey

Hum...

No one brings up Romney before you do...

Odd that...


89 posted on 11/25/2009 4:58:52 AM PST by ejonesie22
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To: OpeEdMunkey
It makes no difference and wouldn't even be brought up if the anti-Rommney folks here weren't so scared to death of him as a threat to Palin—a position that I still can't figure out.

Evidently you haven't been conprehending the FACTS of Mitt's rule in Massachusetts!

90 posted on 11/25/2009 5:00:11 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Buck W.
If one’s Christian faith is so weak that they must take shots at the faith of others, then their quest for ideological purity is merely an exercise in inflating their own faith by “lowering the bar”.

You REALLY should malign our Great Founder & Leader, Joseph Smith, that way!!

--MormonDude(I don't CARE what the facts are: I BELIEVE that JS was a PROPHET of GOD!)

91 posted on 11/25/2009 5:02:10 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Buck W.
The article is not a litmus test, but many of the responses to the article are.

MANY?

Post ONE that offends you and we'll discuss it.

92 posted on 11/25/2009 5:03:14 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Dan(9698)
 
I would guess that seeing as how he is the “late”, he knows the answer.
 
More from the mouth of a late Prophet of MORMONism:
 


 

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

 

 


93 posted on 11/25/2009 5:04:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BertWheeler
As for me, I got no problems with Mormons. They are a clean living lot.

Just like you, the ANTI's (as we are loving called) in these threads have no problems with them, either.

But with mormonISM?

We got BIG problems!

94 posted on 11/25/2009 5:06:03 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: republicanbred
 
I think this is the funniest response yet...other religions basically “voted” that Lutherans were Christians so they are, they voted Mormons aren’t, so they aren’t. You can’t be serious! I followed the penecostal faith until my 20’s, so I would have been “voted” as Christian, now am LDS and would now not be a Christian if the voters are correct. Gee, I think I pretty much know whether I was a Christian then and whether I am one now without having to have the votes tallied.
 
Then THESE comments should get you ROTFLYAO!
 


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!
 
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
 

 
Only just lately have the MORMONs seem to WANT be called Christians now.
 
Can't find ANYTHING in their doctrine that has changed to warrent this attitude shift; however.

95 posted on 11/25/2009 5:08:54 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: republicanbred
Prophets have never been infallible, remember Moses not seeing the promised land?

No; I don't!

Perhaps some BIBLE study is in store for you; too!


Deuteronomy 34
1. Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the LORD showed him the whole land--from Gilead to Dan,
2. all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea,
3. the Negev and the whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar.
4. Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, `I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it."
5. And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said.

96 posted on 11/25/2009 5:32:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: republicanbred
You mean sucked in like all the Christians who send money to televangelists so they can heal people over the airwaves?


Temple Recommend Questions:

 1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

 5 Do you live the law of chastity?

 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

     Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?

     Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

97 posted on 11/25/2009 5:33:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: republicanbred
 
Honey, I’m not hostile to Christians.

 

THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI
HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 14
 
An angel tells Nephi of the blessings and cursings to fall upon the Gentiles—There are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil—The saints of God in all nations are persecuted by the great and abominable church—The apostle John shall write concerning the end of the world. Between 600 and 592 B.C. 
 
   1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
  2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
  3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
  4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
  5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repented not must perish.
  6 Therefore, woe be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
  7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
  8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
  9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
  10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
  11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
  12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
  13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
  14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
  15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.
  16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—
  17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
  18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
  19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.
  20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
  21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.
  22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.
  23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.
  24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.
  25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.
  26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.
  27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was john, according to the word of the angel.
  28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.
  29 And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me.
  30 And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.

98 posted on 11/25/2009 5:34:32 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Buck W.
 

Ten minutes of a Rober Tilton broadcast is all I generally need to dismiss any of the “holier than thou” claims I hear from the self-professed keepers of the Christian faith.

And I say that as a Christian.



"...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..."
 
 
--Lds Prophet John Taylor,
Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163
 
 
 

"We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." 
 
--LDS Prophet John Taylor,
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870  (March 20,1870)
 

99 posted on 11/25/2009 5:39:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: republicanbred
Don’t need a Mormon “expert” to tell me what I believe...and I’m signing off any way.

So true: we can READ what the Leaders of the LDS Organization® have to say on the subject.

100 posted on 11/25/2009 5:40:28 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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