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Concealed carry couldn't have saved lives at Virginia Tech (A poorly argued article)
Rocky Mountain Collegian ^ | 12/7/2009 | John O. Woods

Posted on 12/07/2009 10:55:55 AM PST by greatdefender

I am a representative in student government at the University of Texas at Austin. I'm also uniquely positioned to discuss the issue of firearms and classrooms as an alumnus of Virginia Tech. I was there in 2007 when the shooting happened, and I lost the girl I love.

In no way was that tragedy the fault of those licensed to carry concealed handguns. With that said, our tragedy has been used by proponents of a "guns everywhere" policy to push a political agenda.

I cannot speak to the decision of CSU's Associated Students or their reasons for voting the way they did. Perhaps they were merely representing the student body as we try so hard to do in UT-Austin's student government.

With that said, I feel obligated to address some of the misconceptions around the push for gun-free schools -- not to scold ASCSU, but rather to provide a different perspective.

Firstly, there is a suggestion that "Virginia Tech could have been prevented if only people were armed." Interestingly, none of the survivors think so. They describe utter chaos. At one point, my friend Colin thought he was being rescued by a police officer (all he could see from where he was hiding were shoes). Then he was shot four times.

According to the detectives, Maxine -- the girl I mentioned, who died in German class -- never saw the shooter come in. What good would a gun have done her?

Virginia Tech police officers also told Colin that had they seen someone else with a gun, they would have fired immediately. This is the standard operating procedure for active shooter situations in schools, and it enables emergency medical technicians to get to victims more quickly.

Had the police needed to determine which armed individuals were not actually the perpetrator, many of the nineteen injured survivors at Virginia Tech would have bled to death instead of getting help.

Secondly, we do not suggest irresponsibility on the part of those with concealed carry of weapons permits. But neither are all with permits responsible. The shooter at Fort Hood was licensed to carry a concealed weapon, as were four other mass shooters in the last year.

As for shootings with fewer victims, it's hard to tell. Every time statistics emerge that the National Rifle Association dislikes, the NRA pushes for legislative changes that obscure such statistics under the guise of "privacy." In most states, there is no way to determine what percentage of violent crimes are committed by concealed carry permit holders.

The issue is not the character of licensed individuals. Anyone can lose his or her temper. Anyone can commit a crime of passion, and most violent crimes on college campuses are acts of sudden uncontrollable rage -- not pre-meditated acts of terrorism. The presence of weapons raises the risk that fist fights will be escalated to tragedies.

But, most importantly, violent crimes are rare on college campuses.

According to a study by the U.S. Department of Justice, 93 percent of violent crimes against students (between 1995 and 2002) occurred off-campus. Accordingly, in Austin, TX, the homicide rate in 2006 was 2.8 per 100,000, well below the national average of 7 per 100,000, but on UT-Austin's fairly urban campus, the rate is too low to compute. At UT-Austin there have been two murders in the last thirty years (with a population of around 60,000).

I believe the right to bear arms is important, and I believe there are places where concealed carry is not only necessary but advisable, particularly where crime is high. But college campuses -- and especially classrooms -- are not among those places.

Guns will not deter suicidal mass shooters. They enter expecting to die. They enter hoping to take away your feeling of safety. They are literally terrorists.

There are things we can do to reduce campus violence, but they have to begin well before the violence takes place. We need to make it easier to obtain voluntary psychological counseling. We need to make sure students don't fall through the cracks. Had these proactive measures been in place at Virginia Tech, I believe Maxine and the others would still be alive.


TOPICS: Education; Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; carryoncampus; student; vt
Video of Woods in CNN with the President of Student of Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwUxBD0d7A

NOTE: Woods makes some very poorly arguments in this interview

1 posted on 12/07/2009 10:55:55 AM PST by greatdefender
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To: greatdefender

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwUxBD0d7A


2 posted on 12/07/2009 10:56:22 AM PST by greatdefender (If You Want Peace.....Prepare For War)
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To: greatdefender

I bet the kids hiding under their desks would have loved to have a choice.


3 posted on 12/07/2009 10:58:37 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: greatdefender

That exercising an option may not have helped some people does not justify denying that option to all others.


4 posted on 12/07/2009 11:01:20 AM PST by ctdonath2 (It from fit.)
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To: greatdefender
Guns will not deter suicidal mass shooters.

This is why we see so many mass murders in police stations. (/s)

5 posted on 12/07/2009 11:02:49 AM PST by sima_yi ( Reporting live from the People's Republic of Boulder)
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To: greatdefender

Written from the land of Polly & Anna. At the very least if any of the two professors who were killed had handguns this incident would have been stopped cold. Both of them were retired Army Officers (one Israeli) and proficient with weapons. They were trained to react in a crisis and succeed.


6 posted on 12/07/2009 11:04:09 AM PST by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come.)
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To: greatdefender

When the coming war finally arrives I do NOT want this little boy on my side.


7 posted on 12/07/2009 11:05:38 AM PST by AtlasThugged316 (Who is Edmund Ruffin?)
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To: greatdefender
The shooter at Fort Hood was licensed to carry a concealed weapon, as were four other mass shooters in the last year.

I've not read about the Ft. Hood murderer being licensed for concealed carry. The military doesn't license people to carry concealed. Poor argument.

8 posted on 12/07/2009 11:06:35 AM PST by NRA1995 (Obama, when you lie, we're going to call you out)
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To: greatdefender

“According to the detectives, Maxine — the girl I mentioned, who died in German class — never saw the shooter come in. What good would a gun have done her?”

how do they know that “she didn’t see him come in”?


9 posted on 12/07/2009 11:09:42 AM PST by Celerity
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To: greatdefender

This was written by a person in college (Junior or Senior)? YIKES!


10 posted on 12/07/2009 11:09:46 AM PST by mad_as_he$$
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To: NRA1995

I am also pretty sure he carried his weapons in the open before he every got into the hall.


11 posted on 12/07/2009 11:24:20 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: greatdefender; marktwain; Joe Brower

12 posted on 12/07/2009 11:33:47 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: greatdefender

“They enter expecting to die.”

Well, let’s help them meet their expectations, then....


13 posted on 12/07/2009 11:34:20 AM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (Merry Christmas, FReepers!!!)
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To: greatdefender

The questions:

1) This guy prefers a law that ensures a law abiding and responsible demographic not be allowed access to the best tools to stop a rampaging mental case like the VT killer. I can’t understand the philosophy that it is better to sit and await death than it is to actively try to stop murders.

2) It infuriates me that no one cares that we protect our money with the force of a gun, but get their panties in a wad when we suggest that we guard our children the same way.

3) The fact that the police would have shot anyone with a gun is moot. The police weren’t there until late in the situation, and in the end, didn’t even kill the one guy on campus who had a gun. If I have to choose between being shot now by a rampaging loony, or perhaps being shot later by police who are mistaken, I’ll take the latter.

4) The two deaths that he cites might never have happened had someone been able to stop the killer through armed force at the outset.

5) Hasan, whether or not he had a permit to carry, is irrelevant. He did not have permission to carry where the shooting took place, so how would a carry permit be a contributing factor? On the other hand, what if just one of the people who was killed that day had the means to fight back?

6) Go back and look the previous VA school shooting. Much different ending due to armed response. None of this guy’s paranoid ravings came to pass here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

This entire article is based on feel-goodism and fantasy. This guy should know better.


14 posted on 12/07/2009 11:37:22 AM PST by FLAMING DEATH (Are you better off than you were $4 trillion ago?)
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To: greatdefender

In most states, there is no way to determine what percentage of violent crimes are committed by concealed carry permit holders.

Whiskey Tango Fox?

Colonel, USAFR
Judge
Prosecutor
CHL holder


15 posted on 12/07/2009 11:38:47 AM PST by jagusafr (Kill the red lizard, Lord! - nod to C.S. Lewis)
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To: DarthVader

Written from the land of Polly & Anna.

Yes, unfortunately, my alma mater is still firmly stuck in the “stick it to the Man/flower-power/dude where’d ya get the dope” dimension.

Colonel, USAFR
Texas Longhorn
Not-A-Dime Alumnus


16 posted on 12/07/2009 11:42:05 AM PST by jagusafr (Kill the red lizard, Lord! - nod to C.S. Lewis)
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To: driftdiver
This writer, doesn't consider the deterrence of concealed carry, which is the point of "concealed" as opposed to open carry.

When concealed carry was first instituted in Florida, overall crime went down, but people in rent a cars leaving airports were targeted, (people do not have guns coming off planes.) Florida then passed a law that rentacars could have no distinguishing stickers...etc that identified them as rentacars, which stopped the carnage.

"Concealed" is the trick more than how many people actually carry.

17 posted on 12/07/2009 11:44:43 AM PST by D Rider
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To: driftdiver

I had a talk with a bunch of college kids after this incident. That is the time to go absolute ape sh!% emasse without regard to individual survival. That is hero time - not hiding under the desk and getting in line to be shot time.


18 posted on 12/07/2009 12:06:12 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: greatdefender
Stupid article.

Look at the Ft. Hood attack. You had trained soldiers running for their lives because they were unarmed.

Yet when they were oversees fighting for their country, they were armed and would continually go towards danger.

If you unarm otherwise brave men, their first instinct is to run away and hide in the face of gunfire.

Bottom line, you cannot assume what the students would have done had they been armed.

19 posted on 12/07/2009 12:12:49 PM PST by thefactor (yes, as a matter of fact, i DID only read the excerpt)
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To: greatdefender

With a legal STATE CCW permit I’d carry anyway. Deal with the consequences on campus later. Carry guns are now so sleek a pocket carry is not noticable .


20 posted on 12/07/2009 12:16:10 PM PST by Renegade (You go tell my buddies)
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To: sima_yi

“Guns will not deter suicidal mass shooters.”

This is why we see so many mass murders in police stations. (/s)

And gun shows. /s
And gun ranges. /s
And gun stores. /s
and gun ...


21 posted on 12/07/2009 12:45:22 PM PST by CodeToad (If it weren't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!)
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To: greatdefender

The one point he made in his entire argument was right, but for the wrong reasons. That is, a student waving around a legal gun is likely to be shot by the police. But this goes against the entire concept of concealed carry, which gives you a huge tactical edge *until* you brandish your gun.

While I have no objection to those who prefer open carry, I would personally never do so, because I would lose so much advantage in a gun fight.

Heck, I wouldn’t want my opponent to even see my knife in a knife fight, so I would hide it behind my wrist until it was used.

The second I see a gunman, I try to maneuver towards cover if possible. Towards cover and concealment if at all possible. If he feels my bullets before he sees my gun, fine with me. And if he sees angels before he sees me, that is fine with me as well.

And a point of style: if I see a police officer’s shoes, I see no compelling reason to make myself known. If I see a police officer with gun drawn, they are busy, so no reason for me to distract him from what he is doing.

Most important of all, if the opportunity to bug out with reasonable safety happens, take it. It is not your job to gun down desperados, unless you have to, need to, or are given the opportunity to.


22 posted on 12/07/2009 12:47:01 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: greatdefender
i couldnt get past the first few paragraphs...

prolly needed somethin for his resume...

23 posted on 12/07/2009 1:09:03 PM PST by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: greatdefender

Look for this guy to be the latest Cindy Sheehan/Meghan McCain all over the tube, including Larry King, The View, Daily Show, etc.


24 posted on 12/07/2009 1:15:44 PM PST by DPMD (~)
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To: greatdefender
Concealed carry couldn't have saved lives at Virginia Tech

I am firmly convinced that only a liberal fool would utter such a meaningless assertion. I say liberal, because of the display of static thinking.

This statement contains the evidence of static thinking, the girl I mentioned, who died in German class -- never saw the shooter come in. What good would a gun have done her? First of all were others armed there is the possibility the shooter would never have reached the German class, second, if the girl were armed she would have had the opportunity to be prepared to shoot first.

As for shootings with fewer victims, it's hard to tell. No it isn’t hard to tell, it is obvious fewer victims would be the result if others were armed. Static thinking liberals have never understood the wisdom of the observation that an armed society is a polite society, and likely they never will.

25 posted on 12/07/2009 1:23:20 PM PST by MosesKnows (Love many, Trust few, and always paddle your own canoe)
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To: greatdefender
The author is delusional ;
From the State’s report.
QUOTE After killing Professor Loganathan and several students in room 206, Cho went across the hall to room 207, a German class taught by Christopher James Bishop. Cho shot Professor Bishop and several students near the door. He then started down the aisle shooting others. Four students and Bishop ultimately died in this room, with another six wounded by gunshot. One student tried to wrench free the podium that was fastened securely to the floor in order to build a barricade at the door. She was unsuccessful and injured herself in the process.UNQUOTE
FULL TEXT AT http://s3.amazonaws.com/hamptonroadscom/store/1181.pdf
His girlfriend was in a class that got attacked second and tried to save itself by barricading the door.
If someone had carried in his 'girlfriend’s’class she'd be alive today.

26 posted on 12/07/2009 1:29:00 PM PST by SWO
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To: greatdefender
Even if the only choices are slim and none, I will always take slim.
27 posted on 12/07/2009 2:00:28 PM PST by TYVets (Let's Roll!!! The leadership of the GOP has no spine and no guts, but we conservatives do)
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To: sima_yi

And gun shows and target ranges./s


28 posted on 12/07/2009 5:58:29 PM PST by RWB Patriot ("Need has never produced anything. It has only been an excuse to steal from those with ablity.")
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