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We need to take a step back on the EPA threats.
12-7-09 | vanity

Posted on 12/08/2009 8:05:11 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing

I think we need to take a step back from the histronics surrounding the EPA announcement yesterday. Charles Krauthammer is correct in that this is a way to strong arm Congress into doing something. They are going after the egos of the Jim Webbs, Lindsey Grahams and John McCain. Let’s look at what the EPA CANNOT do: 1. They do not have the taxing authority of Congress, 2. The EPA cannot redistribute the wealth of this country the way congress can. 3. They have no way of making their political rulings permanent; another administration can overturn those rules. 4. Their rules are subject to more judicial scrutiny; we can sue them.

What can the implementation of this ruling cause? Increased CAFÉ standards will put more economic pressure on the rust belt. Emissions standards will strike another blow to the coal industry (are you listening Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia?). LET THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION BE THE SOLE OWNER OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF IMPLEMENTING THEIR RULING.

If Congress bows to the pressure that the Obama administration is placing on it we will get Cap and Trade. Don’t let what the EPA is doing give cover to those in the Senate that would like to do Cap and Trade, but have their poll numbers to worry about.


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: cleanairact; epa

1 posted on 12/08/2009 8:05:11 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing
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To: Til I am the last man standing

Sorry, I forgot to add that the EPA cannot set up a trillion dollar carbon trading scheme that will cost us even more money and enrich their Wall Street, Goldman-Sachs donors


2 posted on 12/08/2009 8:06:56 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing
The EPA cannot redistribute the wealth of this country the way congress can.

While you are correct on paper, that doesn't make it so in the real world. We have to look no further than the FCC as an example of this, albeit on a smaller scale. Back in the mid 90s, Congress gave the FCC authority levy any 'fee' it saw fit and use the funds for purposes it deemed worthy to promote communication services and accessibility. This one small law then allowed the FCC to tack on whatever fee they wanted, whenever they wanted (thus all the 'telecom' fees you see on any communication services such as infrastructure fees, connectivity fees, 911 service fees, etc). None of these needed specific Congressional approval because they weren't 'taxes'. The FCC has added and changed these at will. They also have spent the money at will, all using that first Congressional authorization as cover, not needing any new bills for each change.

It takes no stretch of the imagination to see how the EPA could use a tactic like this on a much grander scale.

3 posted on 12/08/2009 8:09:54 AM PST by mnehring
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To: Til I am the last man standing
LET THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION BE THE SOLE OWNER OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF IMPLEMENTING THEIR RULING.

EPA can impose some very heavy handed regulations on business and utility companies that will cost jobs and raise the price of energy. This will delight Obama's base and may or may not hurt Democrat incumbents who can have their cake and eat it too. They can decry the actions of the EPA and avoid taking a vote on the issue [in the Senate]. Cap and trade can be delayed giving all of the Dems an out prior to the midterms.

I don't care if Obama owns this or not. The issue is higher prices for energy, which in turn drive up the costs of goods and services. And we will see if this has electoral consequences in 2010.

4 posted on 12/08/2009 8:14:36 AM PST by kabar
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To: Til I am the last man standing

I say never stop attacking the government.

“They do not have the taxing authority of Congress”

It does not matter, they simply charge “fees” - look at my local public school - money given to them was reduced, I had to pay increased fees to the school for my children to attend.

So the government does not tax, it simply charges fees and further burdens the American people.


5 posted on 12/08/2009 8:14:40 AM PST by edcoil (If I had 1 cent for every dollar the government saved, Bill Gates and I would be friends.)
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To: mnehring

Yes they can charge “fees” and penalties but not on the scale that congress can and will. The taxes under a Cap and Trade plan would not only go to the general treasury, but into the global economy as a pay-off. Then there is the huge amount of money that will flow into the alternative energy sector to try to show that they are viable entities. Nope the EPA cannot do near the economic damage that Congress can.


6 posted on 12/08/2009 8:15:21 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing

do not forget that congress holds the power to defund them, wholly or in part. contact your rep.


7 posted on 12/08/2009 8:16:37 AM PST by Movemout ( if you were to launch a heat seeking suppository over COP 15 which asshole would it strike?)
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To: kabar

Your right, kabar, the issue is higher prices for energy, but lets let Obama be the only one we have to point that finger at.


8 posted on 12/08/2009 8:17:47 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing

I said it before and I’ll say it again. Between this and Obamacare, this is the largest power grab by the Fed in US History.


9 posted on 12/08/2009 8:18:04 AM PST by lovecraft (Specialization is for insects.)
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To: Til I am the last man standing

I don’t know where they think millions of people are going to get the money for doubled home heating bills. This, alone, will bankrupt millions.


10 posted on 12/08/2009 8:18:26 AM PST by riri (http://rationaljingo.blogspot.cohttp://www.experiencefestival.com/anti-rightist_movementm/)
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To: Til I am the last man standing

When a government department engages in blatant overreaching, it’s time to eliminate that department. The EPA has shown that they have no credibility at all, it’s time for them to go away.


11 posted on 12/08/2009 8:21:04 AM PST by 3niner (When Obama succeeds, America fails.)
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To: edcoil

Taxes are worse then fees. Trading schemes are worse then penalties. Billions of dollars going to sham alternative energy businesses to line the pockets of the Al Gores and GEs of the world are worse. Contact Congress. Don’t let them be suckered into doing something that is worse then the authority that the EPA has.


12 posted on 12/08/2009 8:21:19 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing

Sorry, but I disagree. The EPA can do a nearly infinite amount of damage here.

Letting Hussein and the Dems “own” the destruction of our freedom is worth nothing to me. I don’t want it to happen period.

With all respect to Charles K, this is giving essentially dictatorial powers to the EPA. The damage to our Constitution here is immeasurable.


13 posted on 12/08/2009 8:23:29 AM PST by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s........you weren't really there)
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To: riri

The economic collapse of ‘08 didn’t start with the mortgage industry. It started with $4 a gallon gas.


14 posted on 12/08/2009 8:23:30 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: mnehring
Violators of EPA regulations are subject to hefty fines. Ask anyone in the construction business who has had a project shut down because of rainwater runoff. I had a cell site construction project shut down for erosion, get this, in a swamp in Louisiana. A tax by any other name......
15 posted on 12/08/2009 8:23:31 AM PST by Thermalseeker (Stop the insanity - Flush Congress!)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

Sorry, but their power is finite, and can be scrutinized thru the lens of the US judiciary. Sue every ruling they put out!


16 posted on 12/08/2009 8:26:04 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Thermalseeker

We can put up with a rogue EPA for 3 years, keep their rules bottled up in court until we can get a Chief Executive in the office who can gut them. Or congress can bow to this type of pressure and give us Cap and Trade which would take decades to unravel, if ever.


17 posted on 12/08/2009 8:29:58 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing
I don't care if Congress passes cap and tax or the EPA decides to make all the rules, I will start a movement to get companies and citizens to ignore and refuse to follow their dictates.

That goes the same for any health care bill that funds abortion, single payer or anything the democrats wish to pass. Anything other than being able to purchase insurance across state lines or torte reform is unacceptable.

OBAMA is a MARXIST and if he can't get the STUPID democrats in Congress to do his bidding, he will do an end run around them. After he finishes stacking the courts and giving all his MARXISTS friends (CZARS) powerful positions in our government, groups like ACORN and SEIU to do his bidding, he won't need Congress. The STUPID democrats in Congress think they are going to hang on to their power and RULE (per Pelosi) forever, but they're not. He will throw them under the bus quicker than he did his grandmother. He's already acting like Hugo Chavez.

18 posted on 12/08/2009 8:34:33 AM PST by BMC1 (Our dear leader (obama) and his brown shirt gang are finding out we don't want socialism)
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To: Til I am the last man standing
We can put up with a rogue EPA for 3 years, keep their rules bottled up in court until we can get a Chief Executive in the office who can gut them.

I hope the powers that be in industry will band together, go after the EPA and make them prove in open court that C02 is indeed a pollutant. They can't. C02 is essential to all life on earth.

If you really want to befuddle a warmer, ask them to cite, to two significant digits, the current percentage of C02 in our atmosphere. I have yet to run into a warmer who can do it.....the answer is .034%

19 posted on 12/08/2009 8:34:50 AM PST by Thermalseeker (Stop the insanity - Flush Congress!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing
Don't kid yourself. There is no upside the EPA declaring itself able to tax CO2, they will tax it. The legislature will do nothing to stop it. It is unconstitutional, that is true, but so is taking over private enterprise by the US government and that hasn't stopped them. Passing a government health insurance plan is unconstitutional also but the legislature is poised to do it. What makes you think that the EPA and Bozo will obey the constitution with this end run around the legislature?

You, and others like you, are refusing to believe this could happen so Your bury your head in the sand and put your fingers in your ears singing "LaLaLaLa, I can't hear you!" refusing to face the fact we are being herded into a dictatorship by the democrats and the frickin' RINOs.

20 posted on 12/08/2009 8:50:32 AM PST by calex59
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To: riri
I don’t know where they think millions of people are going to get the money for doubled home heating bills. This, alone, will bankrupt millions.

What with all the taxes this damn fool congers (sic) is about to impose, and the direct and indirect energy taxes brought on by "cap and tax", we're all going to be a lot less wealthy soon.

21 posted on 12/08/2009 8:58:53 AM PST by Ole Okie (McCain cost Sarah the election.)
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To: calex59

I believe...I believe....I believe... wait, that’s from Polar Express. Obviously you aren’t getting my point. Cap and Trade is much worse then what the EPA can do. That is why the EPA’s own statement states that they will only take action if congress won’t. Don’t you get it? Cap and Trade is global redistribution of wealth and a power grab greater then anythng the EPA can do. Don’t fall for Obama’s slight of hand.


22 posted on 12/08/2009 9:04:26 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Ole Okie

My electric bill has more than doubled within the last 3 months and my electric company is getting taxpayer dollars for green initiatives.


23 posted on 12/08/2009 9:05:32 AM PST by cripplecreek (Seniors, the new shovel ready project under socialized medicine.)
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To: Til I am the last man standing

I am not so sure about your optimism. The EPA can wreck havoc if not checked by Congress. Combine the EPA with the courts, you have a train wreck without any Congressional action. Environmental groups and states are suing to force the EPA to take even more actions. There is no hope of Congress stopping the EPA even if conservatives do well in next year’s election. The EPA can levy large fines, write onerous regulations, and threaten (even jail) individuals for non compliance.


24 posted on 12/08/2009 9:18:11 AM PST by businessprofessor
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To: lovecraft

“I said it before and I’ll say it again. Between this and Obamacare, this is the largest power grab by the Fed in US History.”

Only because 300,000,000 U.S. citizens is letting it happen by 545 crooks.


25 posted on 12/08/2009 9:31:22 AM PST by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: Til I am the last man standing
their power is finite, and can be scrutinized thru the lens of the US judiciary. Sue every ruling they put out!

Sure. Good theory. How well has it worked since 1975? Seeing as how no one in the Republican party outside of Inhofe seems to have the onions to even speak out.

This is no different that what the EPA has been doing for 30+ years. I've seen little effort to pursue lawsuits against them except by the EnviroTards when they aren't extreme enough.

We wouldn't be here now if the Party Of Stupid had been doing this all along. Any evidence it is going to get smart and start now?

I could use a little hope. IMO, we should be taking pitchforks to Republicans.

26 posted on 12/08/2009 9:56:32 AM PST by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s........you weren't really there)
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To: Til I am the last man standing

With the Obama administration having control over GM and chrysler they need to get Ford to take the bait and then Obama can allow the EPA to drop the hammer on production laws.Looks like we will end up with electric go-karts and more nuclear power plants anyone smell GE near by?.


27 posted on 12/08/2009 9:57:10 AM PST by Vaduz
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To: Til I am the last man standing

They can. They can’t. They will. They won’t. Lawyers will get rich off of this bickering and little will be solved. There is only one effort that will stop the left’s agenda, 2010 mid term elections win.

We need to throw money and effort into 2010 like never before and a get-out-the-vote effort never seen before.


28 posted on 12/08/2009 9:57:43 AM PST by Joan Kerrey (The bigger the government = The smaller the people)
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To: Joan Kerrey
There is only one effort that will stop the left’s agenda, 2010 mid term elections win.

You're assuming that ACORN and the left haven't tainted the election process to the point that a fair election cannot be held. I'm not sure if that is true or not any more.

The way I see it, 2010 will prove whether or not the ballot box is still available as a means of saving this once-free country. The soap box is shakey since the left owns 85% of the media. The cartridge box is extreme and messy (though it could happen). We still have the cash box and we DO have the means to starve this country if enough people have the guts to do so.

29 posted on 12/08/2009 10:14:53 AM PST by meyer (Government health care = national strike.)
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To: 3niner
When a government department engages in blatant overreaching, it’s time to eliminate that department.

Most of the alphabet-soup government agencies have reached that stage, and yet, they still exist. What an opportunity the republicans had in the early 2000's to eliminate the NEA, OSHA, EPA, and several other useless groups that serve only to hinder the growth of this country.

30 posted on 12/08/2009 10:18:09 AM PST by meyer (Government health care = national strike.)
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To: businessprofessor

Don’t mistake pragmatism for optimism. I know that the EPA is a train wreck, I’m just saying that Cap and Trade is worse.


31 posted on 12/08/2009 11:31:47 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: meyer

If the EPA overreaches now, maybe electoral victories in ‘10 and ‘12 will lead to changes in that agency


32 posted on 12/08/2009 11:33:13 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: meyer

My 77 year old dad picked up a hand gun and participated in the Thanksgiving target practice my brothers and I were doing. 1st time he had ever done that. No death panels in his future.


33 posted on 12/08/2009 11:36:33 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing
"can be scrutinized thru the lens of the US judiciary"

It was the 2007 SCOTUS ruling(5-4) that CO2 was a pollutant that set the EPA in motion.

EPA has said that they will not use the Clean Air Act regulatory threshold of 250 tons. Instead, they plan to "tailor the regulation" to 25,000 tons, which will limit those being regulated to the very largest emitters(about 14,000)

Those "very largest emitters" will sue EPA saying that EPA does not have the legal authority to change the regulatory threshold from 250 tons to 25,000 tons.

I hate to tell you this, but EPA is trying to stay out of the way of Congress. But EPA has certain legal obligations to the SCOTUS decision. New York University School of Law published a paper earlier this year defining EPA's legal obligations to the court. The paper was entitled "The Road Ahead" and it has been published and republished on numerous websites.

34 posted on 12/08/2009 7:37:02 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin

The EPA is strong arming congress.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/09/administration-warns-command-control-regulation-emissions/


35 posted on 12/09/2009 8:19:01 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing
1. They do not have the taxing authority of Congress,

When the excutive wants to tax, they call it a "fine".

2. The EPA cannot redistribute the wealth of this country the way congress can.

Irrelevant when your company is slapped with a $2MM fine. The effect is the same to you.

3. They have no way of making their political rulings permanent; another administration can overturn those rules.

Little consolation after your company goes bankrupt or you are laid off so your employer can pay the fines.

4. Their rules are subject to more judicial scrutiny; we can sue them.

Hah! The SCOTUS has already handed the EPA this authority. Good luck with that.

Some "checks and balances" we have going on, eh? Now it's "compromise and collaboration".

36 posted on 12/09/2009 8:24:19 AM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: TChris

1. Fines can be appealed. There is also caps.
2. I am sorry about the 2 mil fine, but think about the
20 Bil tax that congress can impose.
3. Sorry again about your business, but you can start
another one when we get someone in office who will
repeal the EPA findings. A lot harder to repeal laws
versus executive orders.
4. We can still sue over substance and process.

Rush just agreed with me on today’s show...Obama thru the EPA is strong arming the congress.


37 posted on 12/09/2009 11:27:09 AM PST by Til I am the last man standing (It's the internet Senators; We can see what you are doing!)
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To: Til I am the last man standing
It hasn't happened to me personally, but it most certainly will. Government, particularly Democrat, does not acquire power for it to remain unused.

All your points are mostly true, but come down to "it's not as bad as if it were congress". That's true, but things with the EPA can certainly get plenty bad enough to be worth fighting about.

38 posted on 12/09/2009 11:33:48 AM PST by TChris ("Hello", the politician lied.)
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To: kabar
EPA can impose some very heavy handed regulations on business and utility companies that will cost jobs and raise the price of energy.

While they can impose costs, they have a more difficult time giving benefits and cash to favored groups. This limits their ability to create an entitled group that would fight overturning of the regulations. Cap&Trade, OTOH, WOULD create a group that would be making money off the situation, and would expend funds and energy to fight overturning it.

39 posted on 12/09/2009 11:35:52 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (Public healthcare looks like it will work as well as public housing did.)
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