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The U.S. Sniper's More Accurate, Quieter Rifle (Upgraded M-24 Remington)
Popular Mechanics ^ | May 12, 2010 | Roxana Tiron

Posted on 05/14/2010 10:58:12 AM PDT by C19fan

Recognizing the differences between conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army is now selecting a contractor to upgrade the 22-year-old Remington bolt-action rifle to become a more effective killing machine. The Army will pour about $5.6 million into upgrades to the M24, with the new gear expected to be delivered to troops by this fall. The M24's barrel is being modified to shoot heavier .300 Winchester Magnum rounds, instead of the 7.62mm NATO ammunition, which should extend the rifle's maximum effective range by hundreds of yards to a maximum of about 1400 yards. The suppressor will reduce the noise and flash of the gun so snipers can stay in their hiding positions much longer after they fire.

(Excerpt) Read more at popularmechanics.com ...


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: banglist; remington; sniper

1 posted on 05/14/2010 10:58:12 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan

I thought they had some bolt action .50 BMG rifles?


2 posted on 05/14/2010 11:00:32 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: C19fan

switching to .300 Win mag! woohoo! That’s change we can believe in right there.


3 posted on 05/14/2010 11:01:13 AM PDT by RC one (WHAT!!!!)
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To: Paladin2

There are. Not sure why one would uses this versus the 0.50.


4 posted on 05/14/2010 11:01:42 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan

Overkill. Looks like the belly shooters want something they don’t need. No adult leadership. Shooting 300 win mag will burn the barrels out in around 2,000 to 2,500 rounds. Contrast that to 7.62 boat tail and you are looking at a barrel life of 5 - 6,000 rounds. Most of our shooting is done in urban areas, less than 300 meters. There very few opportunities to identify and engage a target at 1,000 meters. The probabilities of hitting the target at 1,000 is very poor. Big waste of money. By SR-25s and keep the M-24 as is.


5 posted on 05/14/2010 11:02:00 AM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: equalitybeforethelaw
"...can't we do both?" , A League of their Own
6 posted on 05/14/2010 11:04:25 AM PDT by norraad ("What light!">Blues Brothers)
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To: norraad

They already have a limited number of win mag rifles. SOCOM snipers can have pretty much anything they want, particularly Delta. Having something and having what you need are two different things. They don’t need win mag.


7 posted on 05/14/2010 11:07:32 AM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: equalitybeforethelaw
Most of our shooting is done in urban areas, less than 300 meters

Not in the 'Stan.

8 posted on 05/14/2010 11:09:02 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: C19fan
There are. Not sure why one would uses this versus the 0.50.

.300 win mag rifle isn't much different than a standard hunting shooting .308 or 30.06. Sniper heavy barrels will add weight over a hunting barrel but it's still under 10 lbs. A .50 runs upwards of 30lbs making it not very portable.

9 posted on 05/14/2010 11:10:32 AM PDT by Malsua
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To: equalitybeforethelaw

SR-25s cost way more than M-24s even M24s newly chambered in .300 win mag. I’m a fan of the .300 personally. I think the extra range and energy will come in handy and; furthermore, in my own personal experience, the Army cares not a bit about barrel life.


10 posted on 05/14/2010 11:10:39 AM PDT by RC one (WHAT!!!!)
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To: RC one

the Army cares not a bit about barrel life.

Yes they do. This ammo doubles if not triples the LCC of the rifle. The only advantage is an increase in bullet stability between 800 to 1,000 meters. Number of combat shots at that distance - can be counted on one hand. Its a bad trade, particularly with real cuts coming to defense. Stay with what works and can be afforded.


11 posted on 05/14/2010 11:17:33 AM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: Malsua

There’s a big difference between .300 and 7.62 nato imo. The ammo they’re using is a 220 grain boattail hollow point leaving the muzzle at about 2,850 fps. That’s potent. M118 special ball uses a 175 grain projectile and leaves the barrel at 2,600 fps. The increased weight and velocity will significantly decrease wind deflection and extend the range well beyond what is normally seen with 7.62 special ball. Looks like the .300 projectile has a .618 Ballistic Coefficient versus the M118 rounds .502 BC. .618 is a big improvement IMO. I think this is a a good move. The .300 WM will shoot better than most snipers.


12 posted on 05/14/2010 11:23:10 AM PDT by RC one (WHAT!!!!)
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To: equalitybeforethelaw

bigger better faster more. That’s how we roll in America.


13 posted on 05/14/2010 11:24:05 AM PDT by RC one (WHAT!!!!)
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To: equalitybeforethelaw
Barrel wear is a problem for hi-power target shooters, not snipers. In a firefight, they don't even have to pick up their brass. At one thousand meters, a 1/2 minute group is only 5 inches. These days, doping the wind can be done by laser.

As someone else pointed out, in the 'Stan, you can't always count on short range shots. Even if you miss at 1000 meters, you're close enough to startle him, make him duck, prod him to displace.

Besides, now-a-days, you can get a medal for NOT shooting. Soon, if Lord Barak has his way, we won't need a military at all. Unicorns will protect progressives from all those mean ol' right wingers. And all the pink soldiers can clamp their mouths on each other's wedding tackle, and there will be Peace on Earth.

14 posted on 05/14/2010 11:25:18 AM PDT by jonascord (We've got the Constitution to protect us. Why should we worry?)
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To: Paladin2
"I thought they had some bolt action .50 BMG rifles?"

For extremely long range sniping. The majority of snipers carry the M-24/Remington 700 rifle. I couldn't even imagine lugging a Barrett .50 cal around the booneys...
15 posted on 05/14/2010 11:27:15 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: C19fan

16 posted on 05/14/2010 11:30:38 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: jonascord

As someone else pointed out, in the ‘Stan, you can’t always count on short range shots. Even if you miss at 1000 meters, you’re close enough to startle him, make him duck, prod him to displace.

If hadji is at 1,000 meters with an AK-47 what possible threat does he pose? Drop an mortar round on his ass. All snipers are in radio communication. Their first and most important role is to surveil and report what they see. Better to take out hadji with a mortar or drone and keep the sniper’s hide hidden. It ain’t all about belly shooting.


17 posted on 05/14/2010 11:30:52 AM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
"Old Teufel Hunden"

I hope you are not on my trail ;-)

18 posted on 05/14/2010 11:31:31 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Paladin2

You know what they say, might as well not run, you’ll only die tired.... : )


19 posted on 05/14/2010 11:33:18 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: C19fan

My program was to equip with an AR-15 lower with swappable uppers.

.223 barrel for out to 300 m
.308 barrel for up to 800 m
.338 Federal for 800+ m

Sniper kit only has to carry two extra receivers and another 100 to 200 rounds. BTW, most snipers I have spoken to about this arrangement say “pass ... too much weight”

I mention all of this because the “obvious” solution is often not acceptable. The reason .308 was chosen was be cause it had good kill vs range. I should point out that you can lengthen the .308 barrel and get .300 win mag performance out of a .308. This is how the M44 (7.62x57r) is able to achieve good performance. Though as a new system, normally only held 2 to 3 MOA. Might have to repackage into a bull pup to keep the length manageable though.

However, special situations require special solutions.


20 posted on 05/14/2010 11:39:35 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol

The same bottoms will work with both 223 and 30 cal tops?


21 posted on 05/14/2010 11:47:24 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: equalitybeforethelaw

“Overkill. Looks like the belly shooters want something they don’t need. No adult leadership. Shooting 300 win mag will burn the barrels out in around 2,000 to 2,500 rounds. Contrast that to 7.62 boat tail and you are looking at a barrel life of 5 - 6,000 rounds. Most of our shooting is done in urban areas, less than 300 meters. There very few opportunities to identify and engage a target at 1,000 meters. The probabilities of hitting the target at 1,000 is very poor. Big waste of money. By SR-25s and keep the M-24 as is.”

Belly shooters? you’re kidding, right?

No 1,000 meter shots? Really? You’ve never been to the sandbox, I guess.

Poor chance at 1,000? Maybe you aren’t so good at shooting, if you shoot at all, but 1,000 minute of man is not uncommon.

Most of our shooting with bolt guns is long range, not urban. You watch too much Discovery channel.


22 posted on 05/14/2010 11:51:58 AM PDT by CodeToad
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To: C19fan

Ok Guys help me with this one; I thought the m-24 was a 40x variant with a short action and a 1 in 12 twist.
If you are going to use a 300 Win Mag with a 220, or heavier, bullet would it not be best to use a Magnum length receiver so you could set the bullet out longer then the standard 300 and have a 1 in 9 twist barrel.


23 posted on 05/14/2010 11:52:12 AM PDT by MCF
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To: CodeToad

Most of our shooting with bolt guns is long range, not urban. You watch too much Discovery channel.

After 20 years managing USMC sniper programs I doubt I need to hear your prattle regarding snipers. Bite me.


24 posted on 05/14/2010 11:55:41 AM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: taxcontrol
My program was to equip with an AR-15 lower with swappable uppers.

Nice way to kill our troops. The reliability of the system is already questionable....using uppers not designed for those lowers will simply lower the reliability.

We're talking sniper rifles here, not battlefield weapons.

M24 in .300 Win is OK, but still insufficient for extra long-range. That is why the Brits use the .338 Lapua for sniping and we use the .50 BMG for sniping.

25 posted on 05/14/2010 11:56:46 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: C19fan
I doubt seriously that the actions on the existing remingtons, mdl 700’s, are of the right length for the 300 mag cartridge. The existing rifles shot the 7.62 NATO/308 Winchester round. Weapons for this round are usually always built on a short action. The 300 win mag takes a mag length, longer, action. They will not simply re-barrel or re-chamber the existing rifles they will replace them with a new rifle.
This is not brain surgery. Any gun specialist or gun smith can attest to this fact.
26 posted on 05/14/2010 12:12:20 PM PDT by oldenuff2no (Rangers lead the way...... Delta, the original European home land security)
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To: equalitybeforethelaw

“After 20 years managing USMC sniper programs I doubt I need to hear your prattle regarding snipers. Bite me.

You talk like an idiot. So bite me. Every idiot who thinks he knows shooting claims military connections.


27 posted on 05/14/2010 12:13:55 PM PDT by CodeToad
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To: CodeToad

You talk like an idiot. So bite me. Every idiot who thinks he knows shooting claims military connections.

Great, go win mag yourself GySgt Hathcock.


28 posted on 05/14/2010 12:16:33 PM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: Still Thinking
NO the 223 lower will not work for the 7.62 NATO round. It is long enough to chamber the 7.62X39 Russian round but that round is anemic compared to the 7.62NATO/308 win cartridge.
I do not know what this guy is talking about. The new rifle the military is talking about is a Remington Bolt action rifle built on a model 700 magnum length action. It has nothing to do with the AR platform.
29 posted on 05/14/2010 12:18:47 PM PDT by oldenuff2no (Rangers lead the way...... Delta, the original European home land security)
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To: oldenuff2no

That’s what I thought. A normal AR-10 lower is different from that of an AR-15. I couldn’t imagine why they’d have bothered if you could use the 15 lowers for both calibers.


30 posted on 05/14/2010 12:22:06 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: C19fan

RULES -— PICTURES!


31 posted on 05/14/2010 12:23:15 PM PDT by bmwcyle (Thank You God for Freeing the Navy Seals)
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To: Erik Latranyi

I am very familiar with sniper systems ... Having shot expert my entire time in the Infantry and having been a designated marksman.

Someone familiar with the AR-15 / AR-10 receivers would have known that the lower receiver would have to be modified to meet this requirement. It was the concept of a swappable barrel that I was presenting.

I will also remind you that many battlefield weapons have been used as sniper weapons with modifications (M14, Galil, M1C/D, M44, etc). It is often not about how fast / far / big / hard hitting / accuracy etc..... Case in point, the .50 makes a great sniper weapon but it and it’s ammo and support systems are heavy. The Israelis have a .22LR sniper system that they use inside a city with sub sonic rounds and suppressors. Works great in close quarters.

And lastly, you seemed to have missed the point I was presenting in my post which was, just because it seems obvious (swappable barrels or going to a different caliber) it is not always so “obvious” to the troops on the ground for a number if different reasons.


32 posted on 05/14/2010 12:24:13 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: oldenuff2no

Not aware of the AR configuration you speak of. Spent 3 years designing the Operational Test for the Special Operations Combat Assuat Rifle (SCAR). This rifle (2 variants: heavy and light) was truly designed around modular concepts and could easily be adapted to any caliber you could wish to choose. Its built by FN Herstal. Don’t know the status of the program anymore, but it was a fine combat rifle and a suitable replacement for the M16.


33 posted on 05/14/2010 12:25:40 PM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: RC one
BETTER CHOICE THAN BARRETT .50 or .300 WIN MAG
34 posted on 05/14/2010 12:26:59 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: jonascord

Heh heh, he said wedding tackle
35 posted on 05/14/2010 12:29:31 PM PDT by MaxMax (Conservatism isn't a party)
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To: RC one
There’s a big difference between .300 and 7.62 nato imo

Huge. I apologize if my post appeared to be trivializing the 300 win mag, I was speaking specifically about the rifles. The 300 win mag Is an exceptional round. I've seen guys use a nickel to cover 3 holes in their target at 300 yards using a 300 win mag and that round will push out much further.

36 posted on 05/14/2010 12:33:20 PM PDT by Malsua
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To: taxcontrol

Got it. Your are talking about our heavy barreled M16s. We originally designed two flat top M16s and equipped them with ELCAN and TRIGICON sights. I wrote the original Operational Requirements Document for both the rifle and sight. Our original 106 test bed rifles showed up in FAST Cos and were used in Somalia for Embassy defense with good effect. The original concept for a Designated Marksman Rifle was to provide a semi-automatic capability to the Scout Sniper Team. The concept eventually morphed into the 5.56mm DMR being installed in the infantry Squad. This permits precise covering fire for entry teams while allowing the SAW to be brought up to the point of attack. The original desire of the “belly shooters” was to rebuild M14s as the support rifle for the Scout Sniper Team. This was merely a smoke screen to build an empire at Weapons Training Battalion. Eventually, Wpns Trng Bn could not produce the rifle with any quality and no snipers actually wanted to carry a 14lb rifle. Once that failure was past we were able to procure the SR-25 as a hot need and have never looked back. SR-25 has a problem with breaking extractors. Both Marine and SOCOM snipers carry two extractors with them on all missions. Reed Knight has to my knowledge never been able to build the SR-25 without this problem. To achieve 1.5 MOA in a semi rifle, the tolerances between bolt head and chamber have to be tight. This tightness is thought to be the cause of breaking extractors.


37 posted on 05/14/2010 12:38:36 PM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: ExSoldier
.338 is kind of intermediate between 7.62 and .50 bmg. It's great for shooting things out to around a mile. It's overkill for anything less and heavy as hell to boot. Decent .338 lapua ammo is about $100/20 rounds I believe. All in all, that makes the .338 a niche specific weapon. The .300 win mag remains a niche generalist. Savage has a new .338 out that I would like to own incidentally but I can't justify it, not when I already own too many other weapons that I can barely afford to shoot anymore.


38 posted on 05/14/2010 1:09:01 PM PDT by RC one (WHAT!!!!)
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To: ExSoldier

That was the round that popped into my mind as well, if they decided they wanted something farther reaching than a 308 but lighter than carrying your buddy, unlike a 50.


39 posted on 05/14/2010 2:28:58 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: equalitybeforethelaw

“Great, go win mag yourself GySgt Hathcock.”

Already have, so I guess between us I am the only one with the experience to talk about it, yuppie.


40 posted on 05/14/2010 2:58:06 PM PDT by CodeToad
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To: CodeToad

Already have, so I guess between us I am the only one with the experience to talk about it, yuppie.

Guess so Sgt Stryker.


41 posted on 05/14/2010 3:00:28 PM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: C19fan

.50BMG


42 posted on 05/14/2010 3:28:12 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: taxcontrol

Won’t work in an AR-15. It might work if you used an AR-10.


43 posted on 05/14/2010 3:30:00 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: equalitybeforethelaw

In my personal builds, I put together a Remington 700, 28” barrel, muzzle brake and a tunable vibration dampener (nylon plug on a screw) in the fore stock. With custom loads, I was able to tune it down to less than .1 MOA. At that point, I was sure I was running into limitations of the bench rest I was firing from.

That was a nice rig. The main draw back was the weight as it was barrel heavy. The other draw back was that you could no longer blame the rifle.

I’m considering an M1A for my next build. Going to try it with a BOSS muzzle break and then package in a bull pup.


44 posted on 05/14/2010 3:34:09 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: Shooter 2.5

Armalite already sells an AR-10 in .338 Federal. Sweet.


45 posted on 05/14/2010 3:38:27 PM PDT by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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