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Open Thread: Ultimate Warrior; Waffen SS Vs. Viet Cong

Posted on 05/18/2010 7:05:53 PM PDT by C19fan

Pretty sick match up between the Waffen SS and Viet Cong. Give the edge to the professional ruthlessness of the SS.


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: ss; vietcong
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1 posted on 05/18/2010 7:05:53 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan

Of course I get the name of the show wrong should be Deadliest.


2 posted on 05/18/2010 7:06:42 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan

What channel?


3 posted on 05/18/2010 7:07:17 PM PDT by davetex (All my weapons got melted by a meteor!! No Sh*t)
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To: davetex

Spike TV.


4 posted on 05/18/2010 7:07:38 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan

Guerrilla tactics of the Viet Cong have proven themselves effective against traditional army tactics.

I’ll have to catch this one in a re-run.


5 posted on 05/18/2010 7:07:58 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: C19fan

Thanks!!


6 posted on 05/18/2010 7:08:06 PM PDT by davetex (All my weapons got melted by a meteor!! No Sh*t)
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To: C19fan
Spetnaz and Seals clean up, steal the beer, sell the North Sea, and go surfing in VietNam.

/johnny

7 posted on 05/18/2010 7:08:08 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: C19fan

Keep in mind that a number of those Waffen SS joined the French Foreign Legion and had their asses handed to them by the Viet Minh...


8 posted on 05/18/2010 7:10:36 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Don’t know much about history..(after all in this case)


9 posted on 05/18/2010 7:11:55 PM PDT by wally_bert (It's sheer elegance in its simplicity! - The Middleman)
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To: C19fan

The Vietnamese Cadre were true belivers. With the SS some were true believers and some were afraid to say otherwise.

I think it was Nick Rowe who wrote that the cadre were near robotic in their devotion. Someone handed them a rifle and 5 rounds of ammo and they walked 1000 miles to use it.

On the other hand if you put the cadre on european soil and the nazis would have eliminated them like bugs.


10 posted on 05/18/2010 7:11:58 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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One of the regulars favors the VC because he claims the US never defeated them. He should read his history beause the US wiped out the VC during the Tet Offensive.


11 posted on 05/18/2010 7:14:05 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan

The Waffen SS were uniformed military men. Despicable in their conduct and ultimate goal. The Viet Cong were, for the most part, without uniform, but military men non-the less. Despicable in their conduct and ultimate goal. I see no difference.


12 posted on 05/18/2010 7:15:48 PM PDT by doc1019 (Rush, Beck and others are giving us the dots; it is up to us to connect them.)
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To: C19fan

The show had promise when it first started. I thought it was an interesting concept. But it quickly became pretty much unwatchable for me.


13 posted on 05/18/2010 7:16:39 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: C19fan

The USA defeated the viet cong pretty much every time our guys encountered them. Our losses were in Washington DC.


14 posted on 05/18/2010 7:18:28 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Joe 6-pack

Actually, the Waffen SS who fought for the Foreign Legion pretty much kicked Viet Minh a$$. They were forced to leave Vietnam after the French Press (even more Leftist than the American press) made such a big stink.


15 posted on 05/18/2010 7:23:25 PM PDT by MuttTheHoople
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To: wally_bert

Because of the anonymity granted by the Legion I don’t think there’s been a definitive number given, but I’ve read estimates that in the post-WWII years up to Dien Ben Phu in 1954, the former-German military presence constituted between 1/3 and 2/3 of the FFL in Indochina.


16 posted on 05/18/2010 7:26:51 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: cripplecreek

well said, very well said. thank God for our wonderful and unmatched military past, current and future.


17 posted on 05/18/2010 7:29:01 PM PDT by bobby.223
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Sort of interesting they are using the MP-28 as the SS weapon instead of one of the later sub-machine models.


18 posted on 05/18/2010 7:29:02 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: Joe 6-pack

Gotta disagree Joe.

The legion started losing after the german elistments were up.

Check out “Street With out Joy”


19 posted on 05/18/2010 7:29:09 PM PDT by Keith Brown (Among the other evils being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised Machiavelli.)
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To: C19fan

What a stupid thread. Matching scum -v- scum is no contest. Try the Knight’s of Malta versus either?


20 posted on 05/18/2010 7:30:51 PM PDT by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: mnehring

It’s playing twice back to back.


21 posted on 05/18/2010 7:31:29 PM PDT by MaxMax (Conservatism isn't a party)
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To: MuttTheHoople
"Actually, the Waffen SS who fought for the Foreign Legion pretty much kicked Viet Minh a$$. They were forced to leave Vietnam after the French Press (even more Leftist than the American press) made such a big stink."

I know the French press went ape-sh!t over the FFL in Algeria, but I'm not aware they played that big a role in Indochina...perhaps after Dien Bien Phu.

Admittedly, the French loss at DBP was more of a blunder on the part of senior military leadership and not so much a reflection of the fighting qualities of the individual legionnaires on the ground.

22 posted on 05/18/2010 7:34:15 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Keith Brown

I haven’t read it, but will check it out. My understanding is that there were still a healthy proportion of Germans in the FFL up until the French withdrawal. If I’m wrong I stand corrected.


23 posted on 05/18/2010 7:36:48 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: C19fan

The SS would have vaporized Hanoi and then asked the viet cong to come out of their little holes now.


24 posted on 05/18/2010 7:39:08 PM PDT by Defiant (Were Democrats always marxist, or did Barry convert them all in the past two years?)
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To: Joe 6-pack

It’s true that there were significant numbers of German-nationals in the French Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu. But if you look at the percentages there were more North Africans — Algerians by percentage. The internment of those taken prisoner radicalized them and helped end the French colonial government in Algeria.


25 posted on 05/18/2010 7:39:53 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: JRandomFreeper

.
Charlie don’t surf.


26 posted on 05/18/2010 7:45:26 PM PDT by Touch Not the Cat (Where is the light? Wonder if it's weeping somewhere...)
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To: C19fan
Ultimate Warrior; Waffen SS Vs. Viet Cong

Just nuk em both from orbit and be done with it

27 posted on 05/18/2010 7:46:23 PM PDT by tophat9000 (It ain't about Black... It ain't about White...It's about a Red...Trying to take our rights!)
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To: Tallguy

There were significant ex-Waffen SS in the FFL and they were highly effective against the VC - of course, they did use other unconventional weapons such as Phosgene gas. Also, I fail to see why they would have the Waffen SS using a Mauser C96 rather than a P38 which would have been standard issue. It seems they were trying their best to even out the weapons.


28 posted on 05/18/2010 7:46:24 PM PDT by JMS
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To: Touch Not the Cat
I DO love the smell of JP-4.

/johnny

29 posted on 05/18/2010 7:47:30 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: C19fan
War, and the perceived VC advantage in VN, is/was all about logistics.
Supply and support.
Where is the battle being held?
In Vietnam, my nod goes to the VC.
In Germany or Eurp theater, nod to the Waffen troops.

Now on a non-aligned battlefield with equal logistics for each side, the nod goes to superior training, armament, organization and battle-skills - - - I go with the Waffen SS.

...$0.02.
30 posted on 05/18/2010 7:47:36 PM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus)
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To: C19fan
.
Now if it's about who had the snappier uniforms -- the Krauts win hands down:

31 posted on 05/18/2010 7:49:36 PM PDT by Touch Not the Cat (Where is the light? Wonder if it's weeping somewhere...)
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To: JMS

I was wondering about that too.


32 posted on 05/18/2010 7:50:59 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: narses
What a stupid thread

You clicked on it, and bothered to leave a comment to posterity.

/johnny

33 posted on 05/18/2010 7:51:12 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: C19fan

Chuck Norris would have kicked both of their asses.


34 posted on 05/18/2010 7:52:08 PM PDT by dfwgator
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I did not know the Mauser pistol could go full auto!


35 posted on 05/18/2010 7:53:20 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan

Walter Krankheit then went to the aid of the VC.

Krankheit - German for sickness.


36 posted on 05/18/2010 7:57:17 PM PDT by Fred Hayek (From this point forward the Democrat Party will be referred to as the Communist Party)
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To: Joe 6-pack

“.. the French loss at DBP was more of a blunder on the part of senior military leadership and not so much a reflection of the fighting qualities of the individual legionnaires on the ground.”

The Viet forces at DBP were assembled and guided by Vo Nguyen Giap, a superior warrior, and certainly the equal or better of anything the French had to offer. There were no blunders at DBP, the French were beaten.


37 posted on 05/18/2010 7:59:17 PM PDT by Rembrandt (.. AND the donkey you rode in on.)
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To: Rembrandt
"There were no blunders at DBP, the French were beaten."

Underestimating your opponent's ability and willingness to haul artillery up the mountains surrounding your strong point is a blunder. Yes, Vo was an excellent general, and he beat the French.

38 posted on 05/18/2010 8:04:06 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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Spoiler Below:

Waffen 614 victories vs VC 386 victories. DEUTSCHLAND!

Next Week: Another East Vs. West matchup: Roman Centurion Vs. Rajput Warrior.


39 posted on 05/18/2010 8:05:45 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: Joe 6-pack

The French Foreign Legion got what was left of the Waffen S.S. after the Germans outran their communications and the Soviets threw two million or so men at them.

The Waffen S.S. in its prime is something different. They are remembered for participating in the slaughter of perhaps ten million Russians. They were led by men who truly believed that their enemies were worthy only of death, and they hated Communists above all. The Waffen S.S. reported to Hitler, not Keitel. They were ordered to kill every Jew that they found and they executed their orders. At their peak, they mounted 38 divisions.


40 posted on 05/18/2010 8:11:15 PM PDT by sig226 (Mourn this day, the death of a great republic. March 21, 2010)
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To: sig226

The Waffen SS were less inclined to war crimes, being front line troops. The second echelon, General SS einsatzgruppen committed most of the atrocities in the rear area, after the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS had advanced.

However, in the retreat, the einsatzgruppen created great pyramids of dead Russians, then poured fuel oil on them and ignited them. This was pretty hard for the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS to miss.

Even so, the Waffen SS engaged in some magnificent delaying actions against the Russians, in one case, a single anti-tank company managed to hold off two Russian mechanized armies for two weeks. Aided enormously by Russian tactical rigidity, which gave tremendous advantages to the Germans.

Finally, driven back into Germany, being captured by the Russians or Americans was a death sentence, the Americans hanging any SS they caught on the spot, entire Waffen SS battalions ditched their uniforms, then escaped and evaded to the French sector.

The French, being realistic about things, reorganized entire units with their same command structure, and issued them FFL uniforms. The US did much the same with Wehrmacht maintenance units, some of whom remained in uniform into the late 1980s.

In any event, the Waffen SS units, as FFL, were sent to French Indochina to fight the communists there. They had no illusions or reservations about doing so, and the communists quickly learned that they were not to be trifled with.

It was later said by some of the German command group, that had the Germans been in charge of the conflict, the French would have retained Indochina.


41 posted on 05/18/2010 8:36:28 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: cripplecreek
You defined Vietnam AND present day US military strategy perfectly.

When (that is : when) we are allowed to fight, we can kick any one's ass.

42 posted on 05/18/2010 8:49:04 PM PDT by llevrok (A stranger in my own country)
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To: Joe 6-pack

It’s a good read.

Please dont see this as an adversary thing.

Just couple of lads talking history.

Cheers!


43 posted on 05/18/2010 9:00:25 PM PDT by Keith Brown (Among the other evils being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised Machiavelli.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

The einsatzgruppen were the organized mass killers, but the Waffen S.S. committed atrocities all over Europe. At one point they knocked off 3,000 Jews and Russian “partisans” in five days. They were responsible for Malmedy, as well as Warsaw.


44 posted on 05/18/2010 9:12:36 PM PDT by sig226 (Mourn this day, the death of a great republic. March 21, 2010)
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To: C19fan
a battalion in french foreign legion of former SS/Para/Landsers already beat them once when they were known as the viet minn...
45 posted on 05/18/2010 9:14:10 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Keith Brown
Oh no...I don't see this as adverserial at all...love talking history and always appreciate the opportunity. After your last post I did some googling, and while I'm sure I've never read "Streets Without Joy" I do realize somewhere along the line I must have read some excerpts from it. I know there's a lot of controversy surrounding the "Devil's Guard" books, and certainly their veracity is in doubt, but like all good fiction there's most likely some basis in fact.

Because the Legion closely guards private records, most of what we know of their demographics are speculation with maybe a few educated guesses thrown in. I've read some sources that say that up to 60% of the Legionnaires in Indochina were German or Austrian...Other accounts say that the FFL accepted less than 100 German recruits between 1945-1950. Still others speculate that, in an effort to discredit "western imperialism" in the early cold war, Soviet bloc intelligence services greatly exaggerated the numbers and influence of former SS in the FFL.

46 posted on 05/18/2010 9:20:48 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: C19fan

Both groups fought the US military. One lost, one won.


47 posted on 05/18/2010 11:24:31 PM PDT by Kevmo (So America gets what America deserves - the destruction of its Constitution. ~Leo Donofrio, 6/1/09)
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To: llevrok

Everything I need to know about Vietnam I learned from reading Nick Rowe’s “Five years to freedom”. In fact I think it should be required reading before a kid is given a high school diploma.


48 posted on 05/19/2010 3:47:08 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Joe 6-pack

Cool man.

Some folks get really spun off quickley when you disagree.

I am ashamed to admit sometimes it’s me.


49 posted on 05/19/2010 6:06:08 AM PDT by Keith Brown (Among the other evils being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised Machiavelli.)
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To: cripplecreek
I just put that on my amazon book wish list. thanks for the tip.

Regardless what you think of John McCain, when I read "The Nitingale's Song", I was amazed that he, and any pow, got out alive.

the book is an interesting story (true) of Navy academy grads and the paths life took them (one of which was McCain and another, Ollie North).

50 posted on 05/19/2010 8:17:04 AM PDT by llevrok (A stranger in my own country)
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