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Gene Study Shows Ties Long Veiled in Europe [repost]
New York Times ^ | April 10, 2001 | Nicholas Wade

Posted on 06/16/2010 8:44:40 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

From studying the present day population of the Orkneys, a small archipelago off the northeast coast of Scotland, geneticists from University College, in London, have gained a deep insight into the earliest inhabitants of Europe.

Of the medley of peoples who populated Britain, neither the Anglo-Saxons nor the Romans ever settled the distant Orkneys. The Romans called the islands' inhabitants picti, or painted people. The Celtic-speaking Picts dominated the islands until the arrival of the Vikings about A.D. 800. The islanders then spoke Norn until the 18th century when this ancient form of Norse was replaced by English, brought in with Scottish settlers after the Orkneys were transferred to Scotland in 1468.

Are the present day Orcadians descended from Picts, Vikings or Celts? Dr. James F. Wilson, himself an Orcadian, and Dr. David Goldstein analyzed the Y chromosomes of Orkney men and found they could distinguish a genetic signature typical of present-day Norwegians. The finding, reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, shows that the Vikings left a genetic mark on the islands, as well as their language and place names.

The geneticists could also distinguish a set of genetic markers associated with men who bore newer surnames, meaning ones associated with the Scottish settlers. This set of markers closely resembled one found in Welsh and Irish men, suggesting that all were descended from the same population. Where did that population come from?

Britain's first inhabitants are thought to have arrived in the Paleolithic era around 10,000 years ago. Later, whether by invasion or cultural diffusion, the Celtic language was established. Then, some 3,000 to 4,000 years ago, farming technology appeared in Britain.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: caledonia; cymraeg; cymru; cymry; gene; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; norway; pictish; picts; scotland; scotlandyet; scots; vikings; wales; welsh
Gene Study Shows Ties Long Veiled in Europe

Culture/Society News Keywords: EUROPE HISTORY CELTS PICTS
Source: New York Times
Published: 4-10-01 Author: Nicholas Wade
Posted on 04/10/2001 20:56:13 PDT by Pharmboy

Gene Study Shows Ties Long Veiled in Europe

By NICHOLAS WADE

The richest archaeological site to be found in years is the human genome. Its deep strata reach back to almost any date of interest. And although the only data it records are who is related to whom, this information can be leveraged into a vivid and otherwise unattainable account of the movement of different groups as people spread out across the globe.

From studying the present day population of the Orkneys, a small archipelago off the northeast coast of Scotland, geneticists from University College, in London, have gained a deep insight into the earliest inhabitants of Europe.

Of the medley of peoples who populated Britain, neither the Anglo-Saxons nor the Romans ever settled the distant Orkneys. The Romans called the islands' inhabitants picti, or painted people. The Celtic-speaking Picts dominated the islands until the arrival of the Vikings about A.D. 800. The islanders then spoke Norn until the 18th century when this ancient form of Norse was replaced by English, brought in with Scottish settlers after the Orkneys were transferred to Scotland in 1468.

Are the present day Orcadians descended from Picts, Vikings or Celts? Dr. James F. Wilson, himself an Orcadian, and Dr. David Goldstein analyzed the Y chromosomes of Orkney men and found they could distinguish a genetic signature typical of present-day Norwegians. The finding, reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, shows that the Vikings left a genetic mark on the islands, as well as their language and place names.

The geneticists could also distinguish a set of genetic markers associated with men who bore newer surnames, meaning ones associated with the Scottish settlers. This set of markers closely resembled one found in Welsh and Irish men, suggesting that all were descended from the same population. Where did that population come from?

Britain's first inhabitants are thought to have arrived in the Paleolithic era around 10,000 years ago. Later, whether by invasion or cultural diffusion, the Celtic language was established. Then, some 3,000 to 4,000 years ago, farming technology appeared in Britain.

Lacking ancient DNA from a pre- farming British population, Dr. Goldstein and Dr. Wilson chose to compare the common genetic signature of the Welsh, Irish and Scots with the next best thing, the DNA of the Basques who live in northern Spain. The Basques, because they speak an unusual, non-European language and are genetically distinct from other Europeans, have long been assumed to be descended from the continent's first modern human inhabitants.

Dr. Goldstein said he and his colleagues found the same genetic signature in Basque men, suggesting that the Scots, Irish, Welsh and Basques all derive from the same, possibly very homogeneous, population that inhabited Europe in Paleolithic times. This finding implies that the Celtic language must have arrived in Britain largely by cultural diffusion, displacing the original, presumably Basque-type language spoken by the first settlers.

Please click on Source above for rest of article.


Verrrry interesting. So the Celts are not blood to the Picts but are to the Basques; and Celtic was not only spread by genetic relatedness but also culturally. And where did those women come from?

1 Posted on 04/10/2001 20:56:13 PDT by Pharmboy
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To: Pharmboy

My family history (Pict, Celt, Irish/Scotish) has always contained the admission that "there is a viking in the closet somewhere."

2 Posted on 04/10/2001 21:01:01 PDT by patton
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To: patton

It would be hard to deny Norse DNA for your line--especially if they lived in the north. This offers pretty good proof. Uf dah!

3 Posted on 04/10/2001 21:12:51 PDT by Pharmboy
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To: Pharmboy

The universe is only 5761 years old (Creation).
World-wide Flood of Noah's year (2500-3000 B.C.)
Three sons of Noah; Shem, Ham, Japheth
Scattered from the City and Tower of Babel by Creator-God they fled to caves and became 'cave' peoples etc.

Europe became peopled by the families of Japheth.
Ah, 'those' women?? They were slaves brought in from India.
.....enough for now.
Later, m

4 Posted on 04/10/2001 21:17:03 PDT by maestro
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To: Pharmboy

This finding implies that the Celtic language must have arrived in Britain largely by cultural diffusion, displacing the original, presumably Basque-type language spoken by the first settlers.

I was surprised to learn recently that the Irish language is supposedly related to both Latin(which I had known already) but also Arabic. Since the latter is non-Indo-European, it tends to throw off the traditional chart wherein Celtic languages are grouped in the IE family. I hope the linguists are in contact with the geneticists.

5 Posted on 04/10/2001 21:51:49 PDT by Dumb_Ox
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To: Pharmboy

So the Celts are not blood to the Picts but are to the Basques; and Celtic was not only spread by genetic relatedness but also culturally. And where did those women come from?

No, the article claims that the Scots, Irish and Welsh share a common ancestry with the Basques without providing an explanation for the Celtic or Pictish influence. In my opinion, this "research" is politically motivated with an eye to putting a damper on Celtic pride, especially in Scotland. The bucktoothed English are wetting their pants over the thought of Scottish succession, a movement which has been gaining momentum over the last decade.

In all likelihood, the Celts of Gaul (France) and possibly Celtiberia (northern Spain) invaded Ireland, Britain and Scotland and interbred with the previous inhabitants to various degrees. When a culture comes to totally dominate an area, it almost always leaves a strong genetic imprint on the area. However, this article sidesteps the issue of Celtic genetics and only suggests some sort of "diffusion" of Celtic culture. How convenient.

This article also provides no explanation for the origins of the Picts. My best guess -- and it is a good one -- is that the Picts were genetically very similar to the Welsh and shared a common Basque ancestry, but unlike the Welsh, they were not assimilated by the Celts until the Scots from Northern Ireland (who also had some Pictish/Basque blood, but were much more Celtic) invaded Scotland.

I don't believe that the original Celts were blood to the Basque as you claim in your post. In all probability, it was the Picts who represented the last remnants of an indigenous "Basque" people who had been amalgamated with the Celts to various degrees on other parts of those islands.

6 Posted on 04/10/2001 23:19:52 PDT by michael savage
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To: Dumb_Ox

I was surprised to learn recently that the Irish language is supposedly related to both Latin(which I had known already) but also Arabic. Since the latter is non-Indo-European, it tends to throw off the traditional chart wherein Celtic languages are grouped in the IE family. I hope the linguists are in contact with the geneticists.

As you probably know, there isn't necessarily a one-to-one correspondence between genetics and language (e.g. my roommate, Ricardo Gonzales who speaks perfect English but no Spanish). Who knows, maybe the Arabs sailed to Ireland and traded incense for lucky charms? Or maybe the Phonecians influenced both the Arabic and Gaelic languages? What about the "ships of Tarshish" described in the Bible? Ancient man got around, and there are many surprises to be uncovered!

7 Posted on 04/10/2001 23:29:54 PDT by michael savage
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To: Pharmboy

Correction to post #6 (yes, I'm anal retentive) --

So the Celts are not blood to the Picts but are to the Basques; and Celtic was not only spread by genetic relatedness but also culturally. And where did those women come from?

No, the article claims that the Scots, Irish and Welsh share a common ancestry with the Basques without providing an explanation for the Celtic and Pictish influences. In my opinion, this "research" is politically motivated with an eye to putting a damper on Celtic pride, especially in Scotland. The bucktoothed English are wetting their pants over the thought of Scottish succession, a movement which has been gaining momentum over the last decade.

In all likelihood, the Celts of Gaul (France) and possibly Celtiberia (northern Spain) invaded Ireland, Britain and Scotland and interbred with the previous inhabitants to various degrees. When a culture comes to totally dominate an area, it almost always leaves a strong genetic imprint. However, this article sidesteps the issue of Celtic genetics and only suggests some sort of "diffusion" of Celtic culture. How convenient.

This article also provides no explanation for the origins of the Picts. My best guess -- and it is a good one -- is that the Picts were genetically very similar to the Welsh and shared a common Basque ancestry, but unlike the Welsh, they were not assimilated by the Celts until the Scots from Northern Ireland (who also had some Pictish/Basque blood, but were much more Celtic) invaded Scotland.

I don't believe that the original Celts were blood to the Basque as you claim in your post. In all probability, it was the Picts who represented the last remnants of an indigenous "Basque" people who had been amalgamated with the Celts to various degrees on other parts of those islands.

8 Posted on 04/11/2001 00:01:14 PDT by michael savage
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To: Pharmboy

This theory has been around for a while. Supposedly the Celtic population of the British Isles is a mixture of two strains, one Celtic which is represented by the tall, redhaired types, even though most Celts weren't, and the other shorter, darker and present before the Celts. A connection between the second type and the Basques has also long been postulated. Another factor genetic research is uncovering is close genetic similarities between most of the Irish and the English. It's also expected that most Lowland Scots will show close connections to Scandinavians. Genetic research will yield more information about the ancestry of peoples, but most of what happened occured so long ago, that it really shouldn't be of much interest politically.

9 Posted on 04/11/2001 00:46:55 PDT by x
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To: michael savage

Yes...I see your point. Your explanation can fit the data as well as there being a blood relation between Celts and Basques.

10 Posted on 04/11/2001 11:45:47 PDT by Pharmboy
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To: Pharmboy

Well...that explains John Cleese.

11 Posted on 04/11/2001 11:53:57 PDT by Slowpoke_zzz
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To: Pharmboy

Bagpipes are indiginous to Ireland, Scotland and Spain. That settles the matter for me. (Conveniently I happen to be Irish, Scot and Spanish.)

12 Posted on 04/11/2001 11:55:24 PDT by Wm Bach
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1 posted on 06/16/2010 8:44:40 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
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To: Dumb_Ox; maestro; michael savage; Pharmboy; patton; Slowpoke_zzz; Wm Bach; x

Thanks all.


2 posted on 06/16/2010 8:46:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Pharmboy; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 21twelve; 240B; 24Karet; ...

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Posted years back, under the old software, seemed like a relevant thing to repost.

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3 posted on 06/16/2010 8:47:56 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Southside_Chicago_Republican

Bookmarked


4 posted on 06/16/2010 9:33:02 PM PDT by Southside_Chicago_Republican ("During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." --Orwell)
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To: SunkenCiv
so you logically play the bagpipes.
5 posted on 06/16/2010 9:43:54 PM PDT by marsh2
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To: SunkenCiv
Whew!

How far can you go?

6 posted on 06/16/2010 9:46:12 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv

My mother is Scot and English and my dad had Spanish ancestry...that I suspect included Arab. My sisters and I have big dark eyes. But we all married men with blue eyes, like our mother, and all but one of us has children with blue eyes.

We’ve all ended up as good old American hodgepodge.


7 posted on 06/16/2010 10:44:59 PM PDT by Aria ( "The US republic will endure until Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the people's $.")
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To: SunkenCiv
And just who the f*ck are we supposed to reparations from?
8 posted on 06/16/2010 11:12:20 PM PDT by Hoosier-Daddy ( "It does no good to be a super power if you have to worry what the neighbors think." BuffaloJack)
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To: SunkenCiv

I have always wondered if what is now called “Basque Country” is just where we ended up. Through history the Basques have been a traveling bunch but not typically aggressive. Large families tend to push the younger ones out of the nest.


9 posted on 06/16/2010 11:14:51 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Obama's 911; Going Down in Flames)
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To: SunkenCiv

“Bagpipes are indiginous to Ireland, Scotland and Spain. That settles the matter for me. (Conveniently I happen to be Irish, Scot and Spanish.)”

Interestingly, at least to me, the drone (the constant undernote played with the bagpipe) is also common in Indian (from India, not beaux and arreaux) music. Both use the drone. Hmmm, those early people got around.


10 posted on 06/17/2010 12:06:35 AM PDT by flaglady47 (To bastardize Samuel Johnson, tyranny is the last refuge of scoundrels)
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To: SunkenCiv
Nice to know they're called “Orcadians.” I was afraid they might be called “Orcs.”
11 posted on 06/17/2010 12:28:48 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker

Orcadians are Orcs born in Canada, I think. Seems like. It makes some sense.


12 posted on 06/17/2010 4:23:53 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: SunkenCiv

Weren’t the predecessors of the Celts called the ‘Beaker People’, due to some of their pottery?


13 posted on 06/17/2010 5:09:10 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Pray for my soul. More things are wrought by prayer Than this world dreams of.-- Idylls of the King)
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To: Hoosier-Daddy

It’s like the national debt, it’s money we owe to ourselves. ;’)


14 posted on 06/17/2010 6:14:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Mike Darancette
or maybe...
America B.C.
by Barry Fell
(1976)
find it in a nearby library
A fascinating letter I received from a Shoshone Indian who had been traveling in the Basque country of Spain tells of his recognition of Shoshone words over there, including his own name, whose Shoshone meaning proved to match the meaning attached to a similar word by the modern Basques. Unfortunately I mislaid this interesting letter. If the Shoshone scholar who wrote to me should chance to see these words I hope he will forgive me and contact me again. The modern Basque settlers of Idaho may perhaps bring forth a linguist to investigate matters raised in this chapter. [p 173]

15 posted on 06/17/2010 6:22:13 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

I think that was due to their having been big fans of the Muppet Show.

/rimshot

The Book of Invasions, which is an Irish medieval compilation of older sources and oral traditions, gives out (I think) four successive invasions, without an exact chronology. It used to be considered quaint, but things like ag practices, weapons styles, and burial practices turned up in the correct order when archaeology started in Britain. :’)


16 posted on 06/17/2010 6:24:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: blam

I usually crawl out under the tables when the shooting starts.


17 posted on 06/17/2010 6:25:33 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Aria

:’) Spanish ancestry pretty much always includes Arab, Berber, and whatever else came over during the Moslem Dark Ages (the occupation). I’ve got big eyes (although as I’ve chubbed out in my own personal medieval period, it’s more difficult to tell) as my dad did, and he was this really white guy, straight-line British Isles ancestry.

Which of course means, loads of everything. Europe, and the British Isles, have, like the rest of the world, seen its population altered by continual invasion. Going by the documentation available (which isn’t unique to Europe, but is vanishingly rare in most of the world, in particular the Americas) one would be tempted to think that Europe has been invaded more than anywhere on the planet. :’)


18 posted on 06/17/2010 7:07:21 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: marsh2

And if I weigh the same as a duck, I’m Pinnochio. ;’)


19 posted on 06/17/2010 7:10:55 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: SunkenCiv

Oppenheimers DNA work indicates that 85% of the British DNA has ancient roots in the British Isles.


20 posted on 06/17/2010 8:52:59 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv

Shosone, ID did and still has quite a large Basque Population.


21 posted on 06/17/2010 10:12:04 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Obama's 911; Going Down in Flames)
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To: Mike Darancette

Thanks Mike.


22 posted on 06/18/2010 3:25:06 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


23 posted on 07/21/2012 9:09:16 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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