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Suppressor/Silencer Question
Self ^ | 17 Jun 10 | Self

Posted on 06/17/2010 9:54:53 AM PDT by OneWingedShark

Yesterday I came across a really intriguing firearm.

The De Lisle Silent Carbine which has an integrated silencer…; while some might quibble over my usage of the term ‘silencer’ instead of ‘suppressor’ I should think that the De Lisle qualifies as the former.


Now, I’ve been thinking about firearm design a bit and I think I may try to enter the gun manufacture business should my state pass a Firearm Freedom Act, which brings me back to the point I was contemplating: silencers/suppressors. After a little research on wikipedia about the design of them I was reminded about a valveless “one way” tube (termed Valvular Conduit) developed by Nikola Tesla that I found on a page about jet engines. Depicted below:

So, since I’m no expert on fluid dynamics, my question is could the Valvular Conduit be used as a suppressor? I realize that, as presented, the overlaps in the conduit wouldn’t allow a bullet passage, but consider if that part of the passage were placed inside the grooves of the rifling and offset enough to allow passage of the bullet and oriented such that it opposed gasses escaping from the weapon. Would/could it work? Would it be effective?


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Thank you.
1 posted on 06/17/2010 9:54:53 AM PDT by OneWingedShark
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To: OneWingedShark

I have no idea, I’m just bumping to read the responses of people who know. :->


2 posted on 06/17/2010 9:56:53 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: OneWingedShark

The picture comes through as an ad - they must not like hotlinking

“my state pass a Firearm Freedom Act”

I’d like a ready reckoner of which states have which laws, including things like that. Is there such a site?


3 posted on 06/17/2010 9:58:05 AM PDT by chuck_the_tv_out ( <<< click my name: now featuring Freeper classifieds)
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To: OneWingedShark
So, since I’m no expert on fluid dynamics,

Either am I, but I do know how to drink lots of beer. Does that qualify me?

4 posted on 06/17/2010 9:58:15 AM PDT by b4its2late (Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?)
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To: OneWingedShark

I think that:

“but consider if that part of the passage were placed inside the grooves of the rifling and offset enough to allow passage of the bullet”

and

“oriented such that it opposed gasses escaping from the weapon”

are conflicting specification requirements.


5 posted on 06/17/2010 9:58:31 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: OneWingedShark

I’m interested too, even though my wife made me get rid of my guns years ago...


6 posted on 06/17/2010 9:59:09 AM PDT by laker_dad
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To: b4its2late

Beer in, urine out. If that ain’t fluid dynamics, what is?


7 posted on 06/17/2010 10:00:25 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: gundog

LOL!


8 posted on 06/17/2010 10:00:43 AM PDT by b4its2late (Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?)
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To: OneWingedShark

I just read something the other day that silencers do not reduce the gunshot to the sound of a cat landing on a pillow... they merely reduce it from 140 db to 120db or something like that

Any one here ever shot a gun with a silencer?

I also read that an aluminum soda can loosely packed with steel wool makes a realtively good silencer- anyone care to try that and let me know?

:)


9 posted on 06/17/2010 10:01:29 AM PDT by Mr. K (This administration IS WEARING OUT MY CAPSLOCK KEY!!!!!)
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To: chuck_the_tv_out
I’d like a ready reckoner of which states have which laws, including things like that. Is there such a site?

Yes.

10 posted on 06/17/2010 10:02:05 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Mr. K

Watch the video (first link).


11 posted on 06/17/2010 10:03:33 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Mr. K
Any one here ever shot a gun with a silencer?

I have shot 9mm guns with a suppressor.

It was similar to firing 22 lr compared to 22 CB shorts in noise change.

12 posted on 06/17/2010 10:05:34 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Mr. K
1.False
2. Yes
3. No
13 posted on 06/17/2010 10:05:37 AM PDT by kbennkc (For those who have fought for it freedom has a flavor the protected will never know .F Trp 8th Cav)
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To: OneWingedShark

I wasn’t here and I never read this thread!


14 posted on 06/17/2010 10:05:47 AM PDT by The Toll
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To: OneWingedShark

Nikolai Tesla was one of the most brilliant scientist that ever lived

I would give anything to have worked with him- he is my personal favorite scientist (who is yours?)

There is a nice statue of him in Niagara Falls

(he was single handedly responsible for electricity we all use today - AC current - despite Edison doing the most stupid thing one scientist can do to another, which is to try to stop the success of a better system for your own financial gain - sort of like VHS and BETAMAX ha ha)


15 posted on 06/17/2010 10:06:07 AM PDT by Mr. K (This administration IS WEARING OUT MY CAPSLOCK KEY!!!!!)
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To: Mr. K

I also read that an aluminum soda can loosely packed with steel wool makes a realtively good silencer- anyone care to try that and let me know?

____________________________________________________

Hold muh beer! :D


16 posted on 06/17/2010 10:06:19 AM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear (I don't have a 'Cousin Pookie'.)
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To: Mr. K
Makeshift silencer: A one gallon plastic milk jug. One-time use but very effective.
17 posted on 06/17/2010 10:07:17 AM PDT by OldMissileer (Atlas, Titan, Minuteman, PK. Winners of the Cold War)
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To: OneWingedShark

If you make the barrel really, really long, you will achieve a legally silenced firearm requiring no federal permits or licenses.


18 posted on 06/17/2010 10:07:55 AM PDT by fso301
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To: gundog

You only “rent” beer.


19 posted on 06/17/2010 10:08:03 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Mr. K

More like -39db, with is about an average rating for a rifle suppressor (Gemtech, Surefire, AWC, et al.).

For a rifle, it makes the sound bearable without ear protection, but nowhere close to silent. I was interested in a Gemtech Halo suppressor, but it doesn’t do enough for me.

Now, you can suppress a round integrally by slowing down the round and bleeding off/moderating gas along the entire length of the barrel. An integral .22 is about as quite as an airgun with the right ammo.


20 posted on 06/17/2010 10:08:09 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Mr. K

Tesla was pretty awesome, though I think my favorite would have to be Blaise Pascal.


21 posted on 06/17/2010 10:08:17 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: fso301

You’d be better off using a heavy/slow cartridge like .300Whisper. Slow a HEAVY bullet below subsonic and a suppressor isn’t needed.


22 posted on 06/17/2010 10:09:21 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

Watch the linked video: you’ll shit a brick at how quiet it is.


23 posted on 06/17/2010 10:09:55 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: thackney

sounds to me like a recipe for danger- the gasses NOT being allowed to escape could cause the barrel to explode

I have seen and read about Tesla’s device- he was SUCH an amazing man

Many of his inventions are tought to be hidden away by the govt (if you believe in conspiracy like that)

He invented a death ray and a tiny oscillation device that could bring down buildings. One day his experiment went wrong and when the police broke in to find out why the building was shaking itself to pieces they found him trying to destroy it with a sledge hammer because he could not turn it off.

I would have loved to have seen that...


24 posted on 06/17/2010 10:10:09 AM PDT by Mr. K (This administration IS WEARING OUT MY CAPSLOCK KEY!!!!!)
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To: Mr. K

And Edison cheated Tesla out of $50K for improvements he made.

Edison really hurt his image with his treatment and unseemly conduct towards Tesla.


25 posted on 06/17/2010 10:10:25 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Mr. K

I have suppressors for all of my firearms, with the exception of revolvers and shotguns of course. My favorite is the AAC Titan that is on my .338 Lapua. Silent and deadly at 1500m.


26 posted on 06/17/2010 10:12:17 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: SJSAMPLE

>Slow a HEAVY bullet below subsonic and a suppressor isn’t needed.

The .45 ACP is generally subsonic by nature. (The temperature mainly determines the speed of sound.)


27 posted on 06/17/2010 10:12:54 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

It’s a .45ACP carbine.
.45ACP is already subsonic, so gas moderation is relatively easy, especially for an integral suppressor. However, that round is being slowed down quite a bit to get that sound.

I’ve fired just about all the main suppressors and suppressed weapons, including the MP-5SD and the DeLisle. Rifle cartridges are another thing entirely.


28 posted on 06/17/2010 10:13:23 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: OneWingedShark

How to build a suppressor. Buy a tubular shaped muffler for small engines. Tap the end of the barrel to permit attaching the muffler to the barrel. Drill out the muffler to accomodate the width (caliber) of the round plus added tolerance. Set weapon up in firing stand and use a string puller to test fire rig. Fire the rig at least 20 times and inspect the muffler, its connection to the barrel for signs of cracking.

The mufflers on your cars are a suppressor. The only difference is with a weapon you are delivering a solid slug through the muffler. The larger the muffler the more sound it can suppress. Finally, if you dip your suppressor into water, the water in gas form will further suppress the sound of the explosion following the bullet.

Don’t know why you are so interested in suppressors.


29 posted on 06/17/2010 10:14:16 AM PDT by equalitybeforethelaw
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To: OneWingedShark

Like I said, SLOW/HEAVY works best.


30 posted on 06/17/2010 10:14:17 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: P8riot

>I have suppressors for all of my firearms, with the exception of revolvers and shotguns of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895
If you get one, you can have a revolver that is suppressible!


31 posted on 06/17/2010 10:16:57 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

That’s what I’ve heard. Unfortunately it would make me stock another caliber.


32 posted on 06/17/2010 10:18:39 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: laker_dad

“wife made me get rid of my guns years ago...”

You’re kidding? Why? And why did you?


33 posted on 06/17/2010 10:20:37 AM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: Retired Greyhound

I think you could’ve stopped at the first question mark.


34 posted on 06/17/2010 10:22:52 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: P8riot

After I posted I thought about it a little more and realized what he was saying.

I’m somewhat gullible.


35 posted on 06/17/2010 10:23:56 AM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: Retired Greyhound

Yep, she made me take them 3 miles out into Lake Michigan and throw them overboard... That’s my story and I’m sticking with it :)


36 posted on 06/17/2010 10:25:35 AM PDT by laker_dad
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To: Retired Greyhound

On other forums, the common response is, “I had a boat accident and all my guns were lost.”


37 posted on 06/17/2010 10:25:47 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: equalitybeforethelaw

>Don’t know why you are so interested in suppressors.

Because NM is really great for it’s permissiveness of firearms and attendant accessories; if it were to pass the FFA I would like to be able to offer weapons with integrated suppressors.

And, being New Mexico, I would love the irony of owning a firearms company named “Iron River.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1223853620070713
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258270,00.html


38 posted on 06/17/2010 10:27:13 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Mr. K
I would have loved to have seen that...

Wouldn't seeing that mean being in the building at the time it was being shaken to pieces?

This is also claimed as an untrue urban myth. Myth-busters failed to replicate anything close to the magnitude when they replicated. You can reach resonant frequency of any member in the building, but almost no members have the exact same resonant point unless they are exactly the same with the exact same load and connection points.

39 posted on 06/17/2010 10:28:41 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: SJSAMPLE

What goes around, comes around.

Edison started a company called Edison General Electric.

He got pushed out of that and they dropped the ‘E’ so it’s now GE.

(Of course, some say that should mean Government Electric, but that’s another story.)


40 posted on 06/17/2010 10:29:21 AM PDT by BerserkPatriot (There are no 1st Amendment rights without 2nd Amendment Rights)
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To: Retired Greyhound

A 1 liter soda bottle with a hose clamp works for one shot on a Ruger MkII heavy. A 16oz doesn’t cut it.
1. Remove front sight.
2. Wrap a piece of duct tape over the barrel
3. Cut a couple slots in the threaded part of the neck of the bottle. The bottling companies conveniently provide marks where to cut.
4. Let’er rip.

The licensing requirements to become a firearms manufacturer are akin to an extreme colonoscopy. They want you to be sincere....


41 posted on 06/17/2010 10:32:46 AM PDT by libertyhoundusnr
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To: laker_dad

Same here. That’s why I was asking.

My wife made me hand them over to the proper authorities. She feels safe since Obama is POTUS.


42 posted on 06/17/2010 10:33:55 AM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: SJSAMPLE

Funny, the same thing happened to me. I was out canoeing on a very deep lake near me with my entire gun collection. The canoe capsized and all my guns went straight to the bottom in 1100 feet of water. What a tragedy!


43 posted on 06/17/2010 10:35:08 AM PDT by oneolcop (Lead, Follow or Get the Hell Out of the Way!)
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To: SJSAMPLE

Funny, the same thing happened to me. I was out canoeing on a very deep lake near me with my entire gun collection. The canoe capsized and all my guns went straight to the bottom in 1100 feet of water. What a tragedy!


44 posted on 06/17/2010 10:37:39 AM PDT by oneolcop (Lead, Follow or Get the Hell Out of the Way!)
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Steven Seagal made a silencer from a soda bottle in Under Seige...

so... it must be true.
45 posted on 06/17/2010 10:37:48 AM PDT by evets (beer)
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To: OldMissileer

Sounds like a “New Jersey silencer...”


46 posted on 06/17/2010 10:39:53 AM PDT by donozark (British Army:Fighting Proudly in Afghanistan-since 1839...)
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To: OneWingedShark
I understand what you're trying to get across here.

I see in Figure 1 of your link that the baffles redirect the gas backwards into the stream which you imagine would retard the flow:

This already exists as the 'K' baffle stack design used in several modern suppressor designs:

Now although the example above doesn't precisely match the Tesla design you linked to, the idea of redirecting exhaust gas back 'upstream' one or two segments is already a standard.

One thing you may want to think about is that if you were to reproduce the exact Tesla design you mention, I believe that the reduction in the volume of the suppressor body would work against you. Volume has more to do with suppression than a fancy suppressor baffle stack design. Also, if you insisted on replicating the Tesla design by adding more material and volume to match, you may end up with a suppressor that's far larger, heavier, and more expensive than modern designs and ultimately offers little to no better decibel reduction than the competitors product.

What end users want are low cost suppressors with light weight and small form factor. Effective suppressors have been available for many decades for both pistols and rifles; the game these days is manufacturing a suppressor that's lightweight, inexpensive, and doesn't adversely affect barrel harmonics by being a big donk of metal.

For an integrated design (like your DeLisle carbine or an Hk MP5SD), the problem is even compounded by the limits of specifically designing the suppressor to fit one platform. End users prefer the option to use the same suppressor across multiple hosts. That's why the uniform 'Quick Detach' feature on the higher end suppressor models is a highly desirable attribute these days rather than just a novelty characteristic.

Now, if your resulting Tesla-inspired design enormously reduced report decibel levels to an unheard of low figure compared to the products already out there, then I would imagine that there would be great interest in your design. Short of a landmark achievement in decibel reduction, I think that you'll find that the traits I listed above (low cost, light weight, reduced profile) outweighs everything else for the end users.

Anyway, good luck with your brainstorming. Take note that Dr. Philip Dater from GemTech occasionally holds suppressor design seminars for industry manufacturers at Long Mountain Outfitters in Henderson Nevada.

47 posted on 06/17/2010 10:42:36 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: Mr. K
Nikolai Tesla was one of the most brilliant scientist that ever lived I would give anything to have worked with him- he is my personal favorite scientist (who is yours?)

She was hot .


48 posted on 06/17/2010 10:43:25 AM PDT by kbennkc (For those who have fought for it freedom has a flavor the protected will never know .F Trp 8th Cav)
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To: OneWingedShark

Go get an NFA trust, and an LLC for research provision under the NFA. Call ATF and fill out forms for an FFL . You’ll want a type 07 FFL. After inspection, pay for a class 02 SOT. Make your own after form 1 approval;)


49 posted on 06/17/2010 10:45:19 AM PDT by DCBryan1 (FORGET the lawyers...first kill the "journalists".)
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To: OneWingedShark

There is an obvious potential silencer that might work very well and would even be legal under current anti-silencer laws.

Current silencers just dampen sound, and not very effectively. What this silencer would do would be to *counter* the sound, neutralizing it.

The science is well known, as used to strongly reduce the sound of things like pile drivers and jet aircraft noise with an equal and opposite noise.

But the noise produced by a gun is easier, because bullets produce a near identical sound signature. So you just need to measure how sound propagates from a particular gun.

Then you create a “loop” around the gun, mounted with small speakers. They give off their noise in time with the firing of the bullet. There is no delay to capture the noise and duplicate it so the loop can be close to the gun.

Otherwise I can imagine putting a tough plastic bag around the gun which inflates full of SF6, Sulfur Hexafluoride, which is a non-toxic, non-flammable fire control gas, about three times as dense as air. When the gun is fired, the noise propagates very slowly, so sounds much lower, as well as being diminished by the plastic.


50 posted on 06/17/2010 10:51:24 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Two New Episodes of 'Futurama', this June 24th, on Comedy Central)
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