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What about that AR-15..??
10/20/2010 | BC

Posted on 10/20/2010 8:07:51 PM PDT by Bean Counter

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To: Bean Counter

lots of good info here, so the only thing i’ll suggest is get a flat top, and spend some money on quality optics.
used to have one with a carry handle, with a scope on it, and the thing was an absolute tack driver, but it was only good at one distance.


51 posted on 10/21/2010 6:43:07 AM PDT by absolootezer0 (2x divorced, tattooed, pierced, harley hatin, meghan mccain luvin', smoker and pit bull owner..what?)
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To: Gilbo_3
they *should* be...but there are rare occassions of the hotter .223 being too much for the 5.56 innards...

Other way around...556 is too hot for 223.

52 posted on 10/21/2010 6:43:59 AM PDT by Andonius_99 (There are two sides to every issue. One is right, the other is wrong; but the middle is always evil.)
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To: wolfcreek

Is that you? Live in Texas? Like football?

If “yes” to all three, will you marry me? ;)


53 posted on 10/21/2010 6:47:28 AM PDT by piytar (There is evil. There is no such thing as moderate evil. Never forget.)
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To: Bean Counter
DPMS LR-308. Or if you have the extra coin to spare, an M1-A.

I have three AR's. All .223. One I bought, one I built, and one I won in a drawing. I'd trade two of 'em for a NM M1-A with a 22" barrel and a walnut stock.

The .223 is a good round to about 300 yrds, but I want something that I could possibly tune up to hit out to 800yrds and still have some *umph* left.

54 posted on 10/21/2010 6:55:39 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (III, Alarm and Muster)
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To: Andonius_99

good catch Sir...more coffee needed i reckon...


55 posted on 10/21/2010 6:57:11 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: All

Excellent comments, tremendous advice, and please excuse my inexact phrases in my original post. You all gave me plenty to think about, and this turned out to be a fairly decent discussion thread....

Many thanks!


56 posted on 10/21/2010 7:09:52 AM PDT by Bean Counter (Self Defence is always appropriate.)
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To: smokingfrog
My wife looked at that pic and remarked..."I like her jade bracelet!"
She has 3 or 4 jade bracelets of various colors.
57 posted on 10/21/2010 7:15:08 AM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus)
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To: Bean Counter

They are not done yet.
I suggest a FN-FAL in 308 but I dont know near as much as most people in these threads.


58 posted on 10/21/2010 7:15:35 AM PDT by winodog
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To: Bean Counter

Sabre Defense. Complete rifles or parts. Made in USA (nashville). Suppliers of M-16 rifles to military (one of only 3 manufacturers). Also supplies .50 cal. barrels for the Ma Duce and the .30 cal mini-gun. I own the Sabre light and love it. 799 at my local fun shop and it came with tactical case, 2 30 rd mags, otis cleaning kit and a cheap but functional sling. BTW, they don’t just get parts from other suppliers. They make 90% of their parts in house including their barrels. 100% reliable so far (about 900 rounds). If you have a reliability problem with an AR it’s most likely due to the magazine. Go to AR-15.com for great info on the rifle!


59 posted on 10/21/2010 7:16:02 AM PDT by saleman (!!!!)
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To: Domandred
I think headspacing and barrel install was the most technical part

Barrel install is definitely the most difficult part in my experience. I've also found that barrels come correctly headspaced - at least the ones I've bought.

60 posted on 10/21/2010 7:20:10 AM PDT by green iguana
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To: Andonius_99; Gilbo_3; smokingfrog
There are two difference, powder and chamber leade.

5.56 NATO mil-spec uses a slightly faster powder. .223 chamber dimensions, where the bullet nose is spaced to the throat of the rifling, is a couple thousandths tighter than the 5.56 chambering.

This means pressures can spike dangerously in a .223 chamber when shooting mil-spec 5.56 ammo.

61 posted on 10/21/2010 7:20:55 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (III, Alarm and Muster)
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To: Bean Counter

First I think you need to define what kind of “AR” you are looking for. Do you want a full on long barrel or an M-4 style? You mention tactical situations but many consider a long barrel not suitable for that. Do you want a tactical style optics or conventional glass? In short what do you think you are going to do with this weapon when you need it for it’s intended use?

BTW you should be able to put a long AR together for under $800, we do it all the time.


62 posted on 10/21/2010 7:22:00 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Playing by the rules only works if both sides do it!)
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To: Andonius_99; Dead Corpse; smokingfrog; Admin Moderator

post 49 should prolly be pulled, as the inferance of my mistake could be catastrophic to anyone who doesnt read the rest...


63 posted on 10/21/2010 7:27:34 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: Bean Counter
I'm considering the purchase of an improvable automatic rifle to augment my personal collection, and am looking for some input and guidance.
Can't help ya. I've never owned an automatic and I was Navy with no infantry/automatic weapons training. Qualified on M-1, .45, .38 and shotgun.
Owned only semi-automatic rifles for personal use. .22, .308, .30-06, 30/30 and shotguns .410, 20 and 12 gauge.
And autos cost way too much anyway IMO.
64 posted on 10/21/2010 8:24:35 AM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Bean Counter

Get yourself a stripped lower and then contact either Del-Ton or Bravo Company for a parts kit. You’ll be able to put a decent AR15 together that way for about $500-$600. Then you can customize as you see fit.

If you have no experience assembling AR lowers, I’m sure there are competent smiths around you that can.


65 posted on 10/21/2010 8:35:12 AM PDT by BCR #226 (07/02 SOT www.extremefirepower.com...The BS stops when the hammer drops.)
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To: Joe Brower
Love my:

Bushmaster M4 A3

66 posted on 10/21/2010 8:41:29 AM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: Sylvester McMonkey McBean
assembling can be addicting. They don’t call it Black Rifle Disease for nothing.


67 posted on 10/21/2010 8:52:48 AM PDT by Doomonyou (Let them eat Lead.)
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To: BCR #226
Getting my Del-Ton Dissipator kit this month. $485 sans lower receiver. 16inch barrel with full sight radius and a true rifle length gas system.

Of course I'm taking it with me on my white water rapids trip next month. ;)

68 posted on 10/21/2010 9:17:25 AM PDT by ironwill (III - Molon Labe)
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To: smokingfrog

Great form.


69 posted on 10/21/2010 9:21:06 AM PDT by Durus (The distance between us has grown, and I struggle to quantify it. Windage adjustments are done.)
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To: Joe Brower; Travis McGee; Squantos
Interesting thread.

A lot of silliness, but interesting nonetheless.

70 posted on 10/21/2010 9:42:39 AM PDT by AAABEST (Et lux in tenebris lucet: et tenebrae eam non comprehenderunt)
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To: Bean Counter
An AR15 is not just a .223/5.56 caliber rifle, it's available in a wide assortment of calibers. While the .223/5.56 is an anemic round it's relatively cheap and pretty accurate. However if you want something more or less powerful you can go from .22 rimfire to .50 Beowulf in the AR platform.

The original stoner design and the majority of ar15s use a direct gas impingement system. While it does pour hot gas back into the chamber it's significantly more accurate then most piston systems at the cost of having to clean your chamber on occasion. This is one of the primary reasons ARs beat the M1A in most service level competitions. AK variants and Ruger minis simply are not in the same ball park when it comes to accuracy.

I would suggest building your own rifle. There is nothing that teaches you the inner workings better then this. The trigger, barrel, and sights/optics are what will determine your accuracy so don't scrimp in these areas.

Determine what you are going to use the rifle for. Determine the best caliber and barrel length, determine if iron sights, red dots, or magnified optics suit that choice, and buy the best trigger you can afford. Make sure the forend you choose is a free float and everything else is matter of personal preference. AR15.com and Brownells both have step by step guides.

71 posted on 10/21/2010 9:55:44 AM PDT by Durus (The distance between us has grown, and I struggle to quantify it. Windage adjustments are done.)
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To: Bean Counter

When you say “tactical” what do you mean? For short range work, a pistol caliber carbine in .40 S&W or .45 APC (like the Hi-Point) works well. They are inexpensive and reliable.


72 posted on 10/21/2010 10:14:41 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Islam is the religion of Satan and Mohammed was his minion.)
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To: piytar

Sweet! Okay, I’m officially jealous.
(well really just kidding, that’s a sin and all, but you get the picture)


73 posted on 10/21/2010 10:54:24 AM PDT by GYL2 (Always mystify, mislead and surprise the enemy Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson)
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To: mrmeyer
...and twist rate 1:7 or 1:9 will be best for the bullet weight (55,62,69,77 etc)

I see a lot about the twist rate in terms of accuracy....sure, a stable bullet will squeeze out the most a system is capable of, accuracy-wise, but when you're talking about a 16 in. barrel, would not there be some advantage in having a round that is just waiting for an excuse to tumble like crazy? Never heard of any ballistic gelatin tests to confirm, but it seems the terminal ballistics of, say a 1:9 twist rate and a 62 gr. or heavier bullet would be pretty ferocious.

74 posted on 10/21/2010 11:19:59 AM PDT by gundog (Help us, Nairobi-Wan Kenobi...you're our only hope.)
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To: Bean Counter

There is a wide variance in AR15 prices, mainly having to do with their conformance to mil-specs. Mil-spec not only specifies dimensions, but materials, manufacturing processes and testing protocols. Somewhere in my archives is a table showing comformance levels of various products.

Colt rifles are mil-spec, except for their take-down pins. I believe this was done to prevent using M16 lowers with AR15 uppers. Smith and Wesson’s M&P was second on the list.

Rock River, Bushmaster, DPMS all fell somewhere in the middle. Mil-spec requirements are to ensure reliable operation in the most hostile of environments. Unless you are taking your rifle to Afganistan, the Arctic Circle or New Guinea, a middling rifle will probably work for you just fine.

My 2cents.


75 posted on 10/21/2010 11:22:46 AM PDT by Nachoman (Think of life as an adventure you don't survive.)
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To: gundog
I agree that the round would tumble like crazy at close distances inflicting significant trauma.

I would like to see the military adopt the 6.8 round in the AR platform. More energy with great bullet mass would be an improvement over the 5.56x45mm. Bigger rounds = bigger holes = more trauma.
Here are some links to some ballistics tests. If you search youtube, you can find video of different AR platforms and how the various 5.56 loads stand up to ballistics gel.

M855 steel core 62 gr out of a 14.5” with 1:9 @10ft
16 inch 1:7 w/75 & 77gr @15ft
20” Colt A1 Govt Profile 1:7 w/100 gr @15ft
Criticial Review of 5.56mm effectiveness
76 posted on 10/21/2010 12:29:12 PM PDT by mrmeyer ("When brute force is on the march, compromise is the red carpet." Ayn Rand)
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To: Bean Counter

Built my own around 20 years ago, and it’s easier to do so now than it was. There are a lot of lowers available fo right around 100 bucks or so. The kit to finish the lower isn’t expensive. The upper part is the only part that needs specialty tools to build, and you can get that pre-assembled and headspaced. My personal one is a “clone”of the M16A1, full 20” length. It will do pretty much anything that needs doing within the limitations of the round.

If I want to change calibers, I can get another upper and be ready to go in minutes.


77 posted on 10/21/2010 12:59:38 PM PDT by Mr Inviso (ACORN=Arrogant Condescending Obama Ruining Nation)
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To: piytar

No, that’s Vanda Purvis (aka Bambi) (sort of a local celeb around here. Owns her AR-15 and is an expert marksman.) She posted on FR last year after her run-in with some cops and their ARs.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2320700/posts

see post #136


78 posted on 10/21/2010 1:29:59 PM PDT by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: Bean Counter

Get the one made by Ruger. It has many parts normally not found on over the counter AR models.


79 posted on 10/21/2010 2:05:55 PM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: Bean Counter

Serious comments and suggestions are few and far between here.

Go here:
http://www.ar15.com/


80 posted on 10/21/2010 2:51:34 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: I Buried My Guns

Went to bed last night so maybe this got answered already- 5.56 Nato has a different “lede” or I would say freebore beyond the tip of the chambered round; a longer one which allows barrel pressures around 70,000 copper units. .223 Remington is smaller, rated for around 45-50 cup, don’t recall exactly. You can overpressure a .223 chamber with a NATO round, but not vice versa. You give up a slight amount of accuracy shooting .223 thru a 5.56 barrel. External cartridge dimensions are the same- I think NATO is thicker in the base internally.

Most commercial semi-autos are chambered 5.56 ( Mini-14, etc.) Some bolt actions are not so you have to be careful what you put thru them, especially overall cartridge length if reloading.

Because there are alot of AR shooters after super-accuracy (varminters, especially)they offer the .223 chambering.


81 posted on 10/21/2010 4:04:25 PM PDT by One Name
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To: smokingfrog

The dimension that matters most is the Freebore Length, ‘N’. They’re not the same, either on your chamber diagram or on others I’ve seen. The NATO freebore, or “Leade” is longer in the NATO chamber than the .223, and this is where the crap can hit the fan.

NATO ammo can assume that there is more freebore, which means that they can use ammo with longer bullets.

Put a cartridge with a longer bullet or longer OAL into a .223 chamber and if the bullet seats into the lands, the pressure goes way up in a hurry... and that’s where the serious problems will start. There’s nothing wrong with a bullet touching the lands, PROVIDED you make allowances for this situation.

eg, Benchrest shooters sometimes set up their chambers so the bullet is touching the lands while in the case, but they reduce their loads to account for this.

A conventional loaded cartridge that does not give the bullet any room to start moving before contacting the lands (even as little as three to five thou) is going to see the case pressures go above what you’re expecting. Possibly way above what you’re expecting.

Here’s a comparison of various reamers from different reamer sources and chambers based off the chart you posted:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

Now, complicating the situation further is the issue of what the loading specs for the two cartridges specify as max pressure in a nominal load. The .223 Remington is SAAMI spec’ed to max pressure at 55,000 psi pressure, whereas the NATO 5.56 is spec’d to have a max average pressure of 58,000+ psi. In the case of “+ psi” I have seen data that shows some NATO loads running pressures up to 60,000 PSI.

Typical brass cases in a properly headspaced chamber should be able to support 60,000 PSI - they’ll probably start showing signs of pressure (flattened primers, etc). However, most brass cases start to fail at about 70,000 PSI. What is happening with the NATO ammo is you’re losing your margin of safety to prevent a case failure by how hot they’re loaded. Add in the sudden increase in pressure brought about by a bullet being pushed into the rifling from insufficient freebore, and you can see how putting a NATO 5.56 round in a .223 chamber could result in a case failure (and possibly worse).


82 posted on 10/21/2010 11:49:36 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: NVDave

Thanks for the clarification!


83 posted on 10/22/2010 5:47:53 AM PDT by smokingfrog (Because you don't live near a bakery doesn't mean you have to go without cheesecake.)
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To: NVDave; smokingfrog
NVD excellent summary of the issue. In the AR/M family it is always important that the bolt be allowed to rotate closed to the locked position. Many home gunsmith try to ream the chamber to minimal specs thinking that it gives better (fill in one of many choices). The exact opposite is true. There are many techniques for setting headspace and bullet position to the lands. I use the Marine Manual method.

http://www.booktrail.com/Guns_Rifles/M-16%20A2%20Technical%20Manual%20-%20U.S.%20Marine%20Corps.asp

84 posted on 10/22/2010 5:56:43 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Playing by the rules only works if both sides do it!)
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To: Bean Counter; Fee

I gotta second post #11. (Did post in my sleep under a different handle? LOL) That said, I own only one Saiga, the semi-auto 12, and it rocks.

As to the rifle, I do own an AR. No complaints for what it is but I wish I’d gotten a beafier caliber than the 5.56. 7.62x39, .308, whatever and then ability to switch to cheaper-shooting upper if desired. .22 uppers? No problem. You can even get an upper to shoot the PS90 rounds - talk about your low profiles!

If you pick an AR, skip the front-sight gas block & carry handle. A decent holosight is fine. Check previous banglist threads for recommends. Within the past month there WAS one about that very thing, I think. If you insist, you can add BUIS and a carry handle to your rails.

Happy shopping!


85 posted on 10/22/2010 8:34:23 AM PDT by Titan Magroyne (What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Hi-Point has new carbine versions that are not a bug-ugly as the old ones
86 posted on 10/22/2010 1:44:52 PM PDT by Gabrial (The Whitehouse Nightmare will continue as long as the Nightmare is in the Whitehouse)
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To: wolfcreek

Is that a new belly girl? LOL


87 posted on 10/22/2010 8:10:41 PM PDT by Magnum44 (Terrorism is a disease, precise application of superior firepower is the cure)
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To: Magnum44

see post #78

That’s expert marksman (woman) Bambi


88 posted on 10/24/2010 10:33:47 AM PDT by wolfcreek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsd7DGqVSIc)
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To: gundog
...and twist rate 1:7 or 1:9 will be best for the bullet weight (55,62,69,77 etc)

I see a lot about the twist rate in terms of accuracy....sure, a stable bullet will squeeze out the most a system is capable of, accuracy-wise, but when you're talking about a 16 in. barrel, would not there be some advantage in having a round that is just waiting for an excuse to tumble like crazy? Never heard of any ballistic gelatin tests to confirm, but it seems the terminal ballistics of, say a 1:9 twist rate and a 62 gr. or heavier bullet would be pretty ferocious.

You're quite correct. And the older M16A1 1:12 twist barrels are not only also better at stabilizing the 55-grain bullets of the older military M193 ball load, but also work MUCH better with the various .22 conversion kits if lead-bullet .22 long rifle ammo is used.

To summarize: get a 1:7 [or 1:8 match grade, if not using tracers] twist barrel if you plan on using the military M855 ammo [or Euro SS109] with a 62-grain or heavier bullet. Get a 1:12 M16A1 barrel for M193/ 55-grain or import equivalent, or for use with a .22 conversion. If you have a 1:9 *compromise* barrel and are having good luch with the ammo you're running through it, stick with that load.

And, in general, you want the longest barrel possible, at LEAST a 16 incher, preferably a 20-inch military-length rifle barrel- if you plan on getting both accuracy and bullet expansion on your intended targets.

And, read the last post here.

89 posted on 10/25/2010 12:47:42 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: archy; NVDave; One Name; Shooter 2.5; CodeToad

See the conceited little man’s post at #80. You guys do not have a clue what you are talking about evidently!!!! No ‘serious’ firearms speak here at FR! Why waste your time with us know nothing fellow FReepers...but give ‘im time tho, he is a young’n, he might get squared away someday.


90 posted on 10/28/2010 10:37:46 PM PDT by bobby.223
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To: bobby.223

Yeah, no serious professionals here. Gotta go to a “real gun site” to get serious discussions from other keyboard commandos.

I think the collective experience of this board has forgotten more than most other boards can remember.


91 posted on 10/29/2010 7:54:46 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: bobby.223

These “gun guys” are like someone that thinks they are a professional mechanic because they diddle themselves to a Snap-On poster.


92 posted on 10/29/2010 7:57:28 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: CodeToad

To be fair to the many confused people in the firearms hobbies, we have to consider from where they get much of their information: gun rags.

The more I learn about firearms, the less inclined I am to pick up any gun rag, even if it comes to me completely free of charge. The amount of half-truth, obscurantist peddling of stuff that people don’t need, or more accurately, don’t need to BUY, is simply overwhelming in these magazines and periodicals.

The “fashionable” guns of the day seem to attract the most mis-information, if I can be allowed to extrapolate from what I’ve been reading from the last century. For example, it used to be that people hung on Jack O’Connor’s every word as gospel. The .270 130 grain Partition, pushed by 60gr of 4831 powder, was seen by many who hung on O’Connor’s words as entirely sufficient for hunting anything in North America.

I’ve used this exact load on a pronghorn in Nevada and see the Partition fail, coming apart into five pieces. This has reinforced my nagging suspicion that gun writers, as a rule across the decades, are paid to write, and their editors aren’t much concerned with actual, you know, *facts* - so long as the writing helps sell ad space and generate readers. And Jack O’Connor sold a lot of Winchester product in his day, as well as a lot of Nosler’s bullets.

The AR-15 is probably the hottest hobby rifle of this day, as is evidenced by the sheer amount of product aimed at the market space now. We have now the ultimate race for the bottom in the sale of “80% lowers” and so on.


93 posted on 10/30/2010 11:05:40 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: Bean Counter
Well,,,My housemate’s son did 3 tours in Iraq,,,

2BCT.10th.Mtn.Div.,,,

The CO’s bodyguard/driver for near 19 months,,,

He had the best M-4 that could be had,,,

He cussed that M-16 action every time I was able to talk to him,,,

Had to clean it 3-4 times a day,,,

He finally got a shotgun,,,
~~~
Back in late ‘67 they tried to give us M-16’s,,,

It took a threat of calling the IG to keep the M-14’s,,,

If you need a rifle to defend you and yours the

AK is the way to go,,,

It will always shoot...

94 posted on 10/31/2010 12:36:41 AM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: NVDave

I used to buy the rags, but it’s been at least 10 years now since for the very reason you stated: Product peddling. Nothing told is the truth anymore.


95 posted on 10/31/2010 8:33:11 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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