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Sea Level Could Rise in South, Fall in North
Der Spiegel ^ | Dec. 2, 2010 | Gerald Traufetter

Posted on 12/02/2010 5:02:44 PM PST by PROCON

Climate change is expected to cause sea levels to rise -- at least in some parts of the world. Elsewhere, the level of the ocean will actually fall. Scientists are trying to get a better picture of the complex phenomenon, which also depends on a host of natural factors.

When presented as a globe, the Earth looks as round and smooth as a billiard ball. To anyone standing on a beach, the ocean looks as flat as a pancake.

But perception is deceptive. "In reality, the water in the oceans wobbles all over the place," says oceanographer Detlef Stammer. He isn't talking about waves, but large-scale bulges and bumps in the sea level.

(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: algore; bs; climatechnge; followthemoney; globalwarming; ocean; tide; wh0cares
I know AGW is bunk, but this author poses an interesting "what if" scenario.

Thanks to all FR science types for your input on this hypothesis.

1 posted on 12/02/2010 5:02:46 PM PST by PROCON
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To: steelyourfaith; Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Ping!


2 posted on 12/02/2010 5:03:17 PM PST by PROCON (Liberal: Proof you can fool some of the people ALL of the time.)
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To: PROCON

This must have been what Randi Rhoades was talking about when she said she hoped Rush Limbaugh’s house would wash away.


3 posted on 12/02/2010 5:04:37 PM PST by Oshkalaboomboom
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To: PROCON
Scientists are trying to get a better picture of the complex phenomenon, which also depends on a host of natural factors.

So, AGW Scientists (and I use that word LOOSELY) are trying to blame a potential problem on one man made hoax, instead of "a host of natural factors". Am I missing something?

4 posted on 12/02/2010 5:08:34 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: PROCON

The sea level has been going up and down since the beginning of time. If the sea rises, buy a houseboat. If the sea sevel goes down, dig clams & be happy. So what’s the problem?


5 posted on 12/02/2010 5:10:17 PM PST by 2dollarbill
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To: PROCON

Operative word: “COULD”. Any idiot can predict that something COULD happen.


6 posted on 12/02/2010 5:12:06 PM PST by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: PROCON

Good grief - do we really have to go over this again?

The Earth revolves around the sun. The moon affects the oceans’ tides.

Then there’s gravity.


7 posted on 12/02/2010 5:16:55 PM PST by sodpoodle (Despair; man's surrender. Laughter; God 's redemption.)
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To: PROCON; TenthAmendmentChampion; Clive; scripter; Darnright; WL-law; bamahead; carolinablonde; ...
Thanx PROCON !

 


Beam me to Planet Gore !

8 posted on 12/02/2010 5:18:52 PM PST by steelyourfaith (ObamaCare Death Panels: a Final Solution to the looming Social Security crisis ?)
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To: PROCON

Speaking of which - its a La Nina winter like 1955

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,732303,00.html


9 posted on 12/02/2010 5:25:05 PM PST by huldah1776
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To: PROCON

♫ The waves on the sea go up and down, up and down, up and down ... ♫


10 posted on 12/02/2010 5:25:40 PM PST by NonValueAdded (Palin 2012: don't retreat, just reload)
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To: PROCON; SouthTexas

Are you telling me the ocean rises in one spot and falls in another and you expect me to believe it???


11 posted on 12/02/2010 5:26:27 PM PST by tubebender (If you can not read, this thread will tell you how to get help)
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To: huldah1776

Sorry, copied the wrong address. :) Must be my frozen fingers.
La Nina 1955 conditions

http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/sanjuans/jsj/news/109921289.html


12 posted on 12/02/2010 5:26:36 PM PST by huldah1776
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To: tubebender
Really? Where'd all that water go?


13 posted on 12/02/2010 5:31:28 PM PST by stormer
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To: stormer
Where'd all that water go?

I'll bite, where?

Tides?

14 posted on 12/02/2010 5:33:45 PM PST by PROCON (Liberal: Proof you can fool some of the people ALL of the time.)
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To: PROCON
Wow. Some poet socialist Euro trash writer says the sky might fall and we think there are interesting concepts here? It's Der Spiegel. They prey every night in their Druid fashion to trees that more people believe this to expand their control over our lives.

Said Euro trash:


15 posted on 12/02/2010 5:33:58 PM PST by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: PROCON
The more boats they float...increases the sea level.

Do they say anything about that?

16 posted on 12/02/2010 5:36:07 PM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: PROCON

17 posted on 12/02/2010 5:38:31 PM PST by SnuffaBolshevik
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To: stormer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Fundy

That’s the Bay of Fundy famous for its’ tides.


18 posted on 12/02/2010 5:38:59 PM PST by BookmanTheJanitor
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To: PROCON

The very ground itself rises and falls all the time, especially along the coastline.

Some continents, the ocean rises on one coast while it is falling on the other.

The oceans are fairly constant, and do not change their median level. What happens is that the ground (the crust) moves, and makes it appear that the sea is rising or falling.

Just look at the volcanoes that pop up out of the ocean. If you measured sea level around their perimeter, you could conclude the ocean was falling.


19 posted on 12/02/2010 5:42:33 PM PST by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: tubebender; PROCON; sodpoodle

This article can’t be right.

“For instance, while seas have risen by about 15 centimeters in the tropical Western Pacific, the ocean near San Francisco has fallen by about the same amount.”

They are NOT talking about tides.


20 posted on 12/02/2010 5:44:01 PM PST by hripka (There are a lot of smart people out there in FReeperLand)
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To: UCANSEE2

Thanks for your input, FRiend!


21 posted on 12/02/2010 5:52:06 PM PST by PROCON (Liberal: Proof you can fool some of the people ALL of the time.)
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To: Constitution Day; central_va; stainlessbanner
Probably out of context but...


22 posted on 12/02/2010 5:52:22 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim (Pablo lives jubtabulously!)
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To: hripka

They aren’t talking about tides. The photo I posted was intended to illustrate that water levels can be high in one area and low in another at the same time. The issue in the comparison between the tropical Pacific and the cold waters off SF has to do with thermal expansion in warmer waters...


23 posted on 12/02/2010 5:52:37 PM PST by stormer
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To: PROCON

Yano, this could be true. Just the other night I made a pile of water on the right side of my bathtub, about three inches high.

So it makes perfect sense for one part of, say, the Pacific, to stick up several feet over the other parts, or for there to be a hole in the water somewhere.

After all, AGW causes floods, droughts, rain, hurricanes, and lack of hurricanes.


24 posted on 12/02/2010 5:53:05 PM PST by DBrow
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To: Tijeras_Slim

Might be out of context, but it was funny :-)


25 posted on 12/02/2010 5:54:04 PM PST by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: PROCON
If the Greenland ice sheet, which is 3 kilometers (1.88 miles) thick in some places, were to melt completely, sea levels would rise by 7 meters on average.

If my aunt had balls she woulda been my uncle..........

But I digress, if the Greenland ice sheet were to melt completely, the global temperature of this planet would be so high that life as we know it would probably have died off long before Iceland melted into the sea.........

26 posted on 12/02/2010 5:58:33 PM PST by Hot Tabasco (There's only one cure for Obamarrhea......)
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To: hripka

But I was and it carries as much weight as the story


27 posted on 12/02/2010 6:00:18 PM PST by tubebender (If you can not read, this thread will tell you how to get help)
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To: PROCON
OF COURSE seas are rising in the south....it's simple PHYSICS.

There is something known as "ice age rebound" which is and has been occuring in near-arctic and near antarctic latitudes for many centuries. Old ports along the Finnish coast, for example, are in some cases now high and dry, a kilometer away from today's coastline. The compression caused by the overburden of ice during the ice-age is still "springing back." Finland's land area is literally GROWING by some 2-3 square mile per year, and this phenomenon is true across the northern lands. Which means land must be disappearing SOMEWHERE else.

If the sea recedes in one place, it MUST rise somewhere else, whether Global Warming is occuring or not...... the question is what aspect of sea-rise is due to this factor and what is due to GW, and how is it measured?

28 posted on 12/02/2010 6:01:40 PM PST by cookcounty (December 31st is coming.....STOP Obama's Midnight Tax Jack-Up!!)
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To: cookcounty

Thanks for your input, I learn a lot here!..:=)


29 posted on 12/02/2010 6:05:02 PM PST by PROCON (Liberal: Proof you can fool some of the people ALL of the time.)
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To: PROCON

I may not be the smartest person around, but if all the oceans and major seas are interconnected, how could the levels vary other than local miniscule changes due to gravitational variations or tidal effects?


30 posted on 12/02/2010 6:06:24 PM PST by antidemoncrat
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To: antidemoncrat

Some very smart FReepers have already responded to some of your questions and I usually have the REAL scientific types respond in due course, stay tuned..:=)


31 posted on 12/02/2010 6:14:39 PM PST by PROCON (Liberal: Proof you can fool some of the people ALL of the time.)
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To: PROCON

This is great news. Now I won’t have to worry a low tide will keep me from getting my sailboat in and out of the bayou.


32 posted on 12/02/2010 6:25:59 PM PST by diverteach (If I find liberals in heaven after my death.....I WILL BE PISSED!!!)
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To: cookcounty; PROCON
OF COURSE seas are rising in the south....it's simple PHYSICS. There is something known as "ice age rebound" which is and has been occuring in near-arctic and near antarctic latitudes for many centuries. Old ports along the Finnish coast, for example, are in some cases now high and dry, a kilometer away from today's coastline. The compression caused by the overburden of ice during the ice-age is still "springing back." Finland's land area is literally GROWING by some 2-3 square mile per year, and this phenomenon is true across the northern lands. Which means land must be disappearing SOMEWHERE else.

If the sea recedes in one place, it MUST rise somewhere else, whether Global Warming is occuring or not...... the question is what aspect of sea-rise is due to this factor and what is due to GW, and how is it measured?


Um hmm.

With ice-age rebound, the sea is not receding, the land is rising. With a constant sea level you can have land getting swallowed up by the sea due to subsidence; can have more land exposed due to rebound or other causes. This won't any discernible effect on the seas getting higher or lower elsewhere, if for no other reason than the total amount of coastline is so vast that the piddling amount lost or gained due to land rising or falling in one relatively small area is virtually undetectable. Besides, the sea level rise since the last ice age has pretty much come to a halt. There's been some thermal expansion during the last Pacific Decadal Oscillation positive phase between 1970 or so and 2000. And now we've entered the negative phase. There will be a decreasing sea level (not by a whole lot, though) over the next twenty or so years just because of lack of thermal expansion.
33 posted on 12/02/2010 6:26:31 PM PST by aruanan
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To: tubebender; PROCON

The earth is out of balance again.

It’s probably because all of our money is now in China, thus causing a tilt in that direction.

We just need to go take it back. It’s not rocket science.


34 posted on 12/02/2010 6:41:07 PM PST by SouthTexas (WE are the Wave)
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To: aruanan

Thanks FRiend for your input!


35 posted on 12/02/2010 6:49:19 PM PST by PROCON (Liberal: Proof you can fool some of the people ALL of the time.)
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To: sodpoodle
Of course, the tidal forces are gravitational as well, resulting from the variation in gravitational attraction over the surface of the earth.

Also of course, the movements of the oceans are a dynamical response to this time-variable force. The North Atlantic swirls, with the line of high tide sweeping like an arm from Spain, along Great Britain and the North Sea. The center of the swirl is an Amphidromic Point east of Newfoundland.


36 posted on 12/02/2010 6:51:40 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: DBrow
So it makes perfect sense for one part of, say, the Pacific, to stick up several feet over the other parts, or for there to be a hole in the water somewhere.

As the ironic sense is plain, and you are expressing disbelief in such things, I believe this is a good example of the rhetorical category of Argument from Ignorance.

I used to wonder about that term, since it was hard to imagine how you would make such an argument, but I have noticed that expressions of disbelief such as yours fall into this category. It's basically the reaction of "Who ever heard of such a thing!"

37 posted on 12/02/2010 7:06:09 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew

Outside of tides and wind and current, I do indeed find it odd that part of an ocean can hump up in one place for any length of time. Even odder to think that the effect is caused by Global Warming.

What is Algor’s favorite island- the Maldives? The ocean has been humping up there for a while.

And NPR had a piece on one spot on the West African coast where the sea level was rising. But only there, apparently.

And yet I run across people who think that the Pacific is higher than the Atlantic, because you need locks to navigate the Panama Canal.


38 posted on 12/02/2010 7:33:55 PM PST by DBrow
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To: UCANSEE2

It takes a FReeper to explain it all.....thanks for the information


39 posted on 12/02/2010 7:42:43 PM PST by Kimmers (Tell a lie often enough it becomes political........)
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To: dr_lew

http://yosemite.epa.gov/ee/epa/wpi.nsf/d8e8e1fa2caa33f98525669800660fe6/01a8885f5e0ca251852574eb0074cbcc/$FILE/Wunsch-10-16-08.pdf

This has slightly different charts.

People who look at Earth rotation rate show very little actual ocean rise, it’s all local due to, may I use an unscientific term, sloshing about of the water.


40 posted on 12/02/2010 7:51:19 PM PST by DBrow
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To: PROCON
To anyone standing on a beach, the ocean looks as flat as a pancake.

It's safe to assume the author has never actually been to a beach.

41 posted on 12/02/2010 7:52:32 PM PST by eclecticEel (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 7/4/1776 - 3/21/2010)
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To: DBrow
I do indeed find it odd that part of an ocean can hump up in one place for any length of time.

This is supposed to be due to the varying density of seawater caused by variation in temperature and salinity. The article states, "In the Indian Ocean, the sea level is about 100 meters (330 feet) below the average, while the waters around Iceland are 60 meters above the average." That does seem like a lot. I find the density of seawater density due to salinity is considered to vary between 1020 and 1029 kg/m3, so a 10.29 km column of the former would weigh as much as a 10.20 km column of the latter, but this only gives me 90 meters, so I have questions too! ... but I think this is the idea.

42 posted on 12/02/2010 8:20:27 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: Tijeras_Slim
LOL - classic. Could they postpone the sea-level risin' til after football season?
We got a good matchup between Bama and SC down heeya!
43 posted on 12/02/2010 8:55:37 PM PST by stainlessbanner
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To: DBrow
And yet I run across people who think that the Pacific is higher than the Atlantic, because you need locks to navigate the Panama Canal.

The island of Santorini has the strangest feature that I never figured out. You can get off a ship in the port and drive up switchbacks several hundred feet. Then you drive straight across a plane to a beach on the other side of the island. I suppose the only explanation is that the plane is actually a downward slope, but it doesn't seem like it.

44 posted on 12/02/2010 9:34:59 PM PST by Minn
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To: DBrow

I have no particular argument with the slide show. If it seeks to emphasize the compications and uncertainties in the matter, I think this is entirely justified. I am alarmed by the conversion of such tenuous conclusions and predictions into absolutist and even hysterical propaganda campaigns, and of course it goes much further than that.

WRT earth’s rotation, I suppose this refers to the slowing rate of same. This slowing is of course, very slow. The nominal rotation rate causes an equatorial bulge of about 20 miles, and this value is proportional to the rotation rate itself. So, a dimunition of say, 1 second, in the length of the day would cause a decrease of 1/86400 * 20 miles or about .4 meters. But the rate of slowing is given as about 2 ms/day/century, which means it will take about 50,000 years to create this .4 meter difference. Well, that’s not so long! If we go back to the dinosaurs ... my goodness!


45 posted on 12/02/2010 10:34:01 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: Minn
These switchbacks?

I believe the explanation is as you suggest. The perception of slope is very subjective. Even in routine highway driving it is difficult to tell when you reach the peak of crest, and when you see the upslope ahead of you when driving a downslope it looks much steeper than it seems when you drive up it. Conversely, the downslope in the rearview mirror looks steeper than it felt when you were just coming down it.

46 posted on 12/02/2010 10:48:39 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew

I’ve experienced the same things while biking in mountains, especially through canyons. Your eyes tell you one thing about whether you are climbing or decending. And your legs tell you otherwise. The next time I do it, I plan to tape a small carpenter’s level to my top tube.


47 posted on 12/03/2010 5:33:06 AM PST by Minn
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To: dr_lew

I mentioned earth rate because there are people who calculate mean sea level (with the sloshing averaged out) by looking at the rotation rate.

I can’t find the reference now, but basically the mean sea level changes are as expected (1 to 3 mm per year) with one anomaly, and that was a sea level drop in the 1970’s attributed to evaporation.

I share your concern that basic science has become a propaganda tool. Well, maybe not “has become”, it probably always was, but communication and travel advances have given us a global reach so the consequences and stakes are larger.


48 posted on 12/03/2010 7:53:50 AM PST by DBrow
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To: PROCON

In other words Gaia will punish evil avaricious capitalist nations like South Korea with rising seas and inundated coastlines while sparing countries with enlightened ledership pursuing a reduced human population through mass starvation like North Korea.


49 posted on 12/03/2010 9:34:26 AM PST by Oratam
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