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Israel in Canaan (Long) Before Pharaoh Merenptah? A Fresh Look at Berlin Statue Pedestal Relief...
Journal of Ancient Egyptian Interconnections ^ | 2010, v 2:4 | Peter van der Veen, Christoffer Theis, Manfred Gorg

Posted on 12/07/2010 6:48:32 PM PST by SunkenCiv

...As for the name rings on the slab no. 21687, three names can be discerned. The first on the left reads... "Ashkelon." A similar writing (but with a vowel marker) is attested on Merenptah's Israel Stele... The name in the central ring reads... "Canaan." This form of the name is well attested during the Eighteenth Dynasty, and finds close parallels under Amenhotep II... Görg derives the name "Canaan"... translating it as "low land"... and suggests that the... ending reflects an Amorite name pattern. This too would underscore the antiquity of the name... As discussed above, evidence of early orthography is evident also from the other names on the Berlin pedestal relief, Ashkelon and Canaan, which both reveal archaic elements that suggest this section of the topographical list had been copied from an earlier source that could have had its origin during the first half of the Eighteenth Dynasty, or perhaps earlier still (Second Intermediate Period?)... The topographical sequence of the name [Israel] on the Berlin pedestal relief occurs together with Ashkelon and Canaan and therefore closely resembles the topographical names listed in close proximity to Israel on the Israel Stele (i.e., Pa-Canaan, Ashkelon, Gezer, Yenoam, Israel)... their geographical nearness suggests the identification... no linguistically feasible name is attested in any of the extant texts, so "Israel" remains the most logical candidate... It is to be expected that many scholars will find it hard to accept that the name... on the... relief could refer to biblical Israel in Canaan prior to the reign of Merenptah... If the name refers to biblical Israel, and if it was located in Canaan... and ifthe names had been copied from an earlier source... this would indeed suggest that Proto-Israelites had migrated to Canaan sometime nearer the middle of the second millenium BCE.

(Excerpt) Read more at ia700308.us.archive.org ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: catastrophism; gezer; godsgravesglyphs; history; letshavejerusalem
Full title: Israel in Canaan (Long) Before Pharaoh Merenptah? A Fresh Look at Berlin Statue Pedestal Relief 21687

1 posted on 12/07/2010 6:48:38 PM PST by SunkenCiv
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From "Ages in Chaos" by Immanuel Velikovsky (1952):
The next theory reduces the age of the Exodus further: it has for its cornerstone a stele of Merneptah, in which this king of the Nineteenth Dynasty says that Palestine "is a widow" and that "the seed of Israel is destroyed." This is regarded as the earliest mention of Israel in an Egyptian document. Merneptah did not perish in the sea, nor did he suffer a debacle; he obviously inflicted a defeat on Israel and ravaged Palestine. The circumstances do not correspond with the pronounced tradition of Israel, but since it is the first mention of Israel, Merneptah is regarded by many as the Pharaoh of the Exodus (about 1220), and Ramses II, his predecessor, as the Pharaoh of Oppression. 15 Other scholars, however, consider the mention of Israel in Palestine in the days of Merneptah not as a corroboration, but as a refutation of the theory that Merneptah was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. They argue that if he found Israel already in Palestine, he could not have been the Pharaoh of the Exodus. [p.9]
...
They are believed to have left Egypt in the days of Merneptah (though his stele mentions Israel as already in Canaan), but they did not appear iu Palestine until after the invading Philistines, with whom Ramses III battled. Accordingly, the invasion of Palestine by the Philistines is put some fifty years after the Exodus and a few years before the conquest of Canaan by Israel.

The arrival of the Israelites in Palestine in the days of Merneptah., and still less in the days of Ramses III after his campaign there* in 1186, leaves no room for the events of the Judges who guided the people for four centuries prior to Saul and David... [p.10]
...
It is appropriate here to explain the name "Retenu" or "Rezenu" often employed in the Egyptian inscriptions of the New Kingdom to designate Palestine. Galilee is called "Upper Rezenu." "Rezenu" is apparently a transcription of the name used by the population of Palestine for their land. The Hebrew language must be questioned on its meaning.

In the Scriptures Palestine is frequently called "Erez" ( country ), "Erez Israel" (the land of Israel), and "Arzenu" (possessive case, "our country"). What the Egyptologists read as Retenu or Rezenu is probably the "Arzenu" of the Bible.

In only one inscription of the Middle Kingdom (Twelfth Dynasty) under Sesostris III is the name Rezenu mentioned it is a very short account of a raid into that country against M-n-tyw. As we shall find the same name, Mntyw, in Egyptian documents of a much later period, that of King Menashe (Manasseh), the Mntyw of the Middle Kingdom must mean the tribe Menashe. If the inscription is correctly attributed to the time of Sesostris III, the mention of the tribe Menashe would imply that before the Israelites had come to stay in Egypt they had dwelt in Palestine, not as a single patriarchal family, but as tribes strong enough to be regarded as enemies by the pharaoh. This would accord with the tradition of a defeat inflicted by Abraham and the servants of his household on the kings of Shinar and Elam and their allies (Genesis 14), and with the number of the Israelites (about two million, including women and children) in the days of the Exodus, after some two hundred years of sojourning in Egypt. [pp.173-4]

2 posted on 12/07/2010 6:59:07 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: 75thOVI; aimhigh; Alice in Wonderland; AndrewC; aragorn; aristotleman; Avoiding_Sulla; BBell; ...
One of *those* topics!
 
Catastrophism
 
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3 posted on 12/07/2010 6:59:10 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; 31R1O; ...

· GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach ·
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4 posted on 12/07/2010 6:59:25 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv


5 posted on 12/07/2010 7:00:23 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: SunkenCiv

Good find.


6 posted on 12/07/2010 7:06:13 PM PST by Inyo-Mono (Had God not driven man from the Garden of Eden the Sierra Club surely would have.)
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To: JoeProBono

It didn’t come through. :’(

Weird, two different errors. Here’s the page:

http://www.kidspast.com/world-history/0050-israel-fights-for-canaan.php


7 posted on 12/07/2010 7:06:31 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: Inyo-Mono

And, I had to hand-type the text from the PDF, so I really think I should be feted from one end of the country to the other. Okay, maybe that’s going overboard.


8 posted on 12/07/2010 7:09:39 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Ouch! I’ve done that before too. Painful.


9 posted on 12/07/2010 7:13:00 PM PST by Inyo-Mono (Had God not driven man from the Garden of Eden the Sierra Club surely would have.)
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To: SunkenCiv

It’s feted here, in the heartland, though I can’t speak for the coasts.


10 posted on 12/07/2010 7:16:46 PM PST by aposiopetic
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To: SunkenCiv
It is appropriate here to explain the name "Retenu" or "Rezenu" often employed in the Egyptian inscriptions of the New Kingdom to designate Palestine..."

Can't prove it but I've long thought that Radhanite was derived from Retenu.

11 posted on 12/07/2010 7:22:08 PM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Grammar police off-duty. But I saw what you did.)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhanite#Etymology


12 posted on 12/07/2010 7:25:37 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: Inyo-Mono

Under Mac OS X I could have just selected all, copied, and pasted the text into an editor (have done that before). The pics are nice in the original. All those interested should d/l the PDF while it’s available, probably won’t be for long.


13 posted on 12/07/2010 7:27:27 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Yeah, well, their guess is as good as mine. I’ll go check it out but I bet they admit they’re just guessing!


14 posted on 12/07/2010 7:28:15 PM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Grammar police off-duty. But I saw what you did.)
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To: SunkenCiv

I’ll buy you a beer. Now, if you had said “I had to hand set the type first....”

But this is interesting. And anything that gets Velikovsky in the mention rates right up there.

In fact, I’ll buy you 2.


15 posted on 12/07/2010 7:32:37 PM PST by bigheadfred (STAND IN THE CLOSET AND SCREAM WITH ME...)
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To: SunkenCiv
Wiki say: Several etymologies have been suggested for the word "Radhanite". Many scholars...believe it refers to a district in Mesopotamia called "the land of Radhan" in Arabic and Hebrew texts of the period.

Ha! Scholar #668 suggests/believes that Radhan=Retenu.

16 posted on 12/07/2010 7:35:29 PM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Grammar police off-duty. But I saw what you did.)
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To: SunkenCiv

I’ve done that too, but I once (pre-computer era) transcribed a 19 page document by hand from the National Archives then retyped it on my Underwood typewriter.


17 posted on 12/07/2010 7:42:37 PM PST by Inyo-Mono (Had God not driven man from the Garden of Eden the Sierra Club surely would have.)
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To: Inyo-Mono

I’ve got Underwood near me, on a shelf — but it’s a can of deviled ham. :’)


18 posted on 12/07/2010 9:09:56 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: bigheadfred

:’) :’D


19 posted on 12/07/2010 9:11:30 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

:’)


20 posted on 12/07/2010 9:11:42 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast
...a district in Mesopotamia called "the land of Radhan" in Arabic and Hebrew texts of the period.
And we have a winner. :')

21 posted on 12/07/2010 9:12:28 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv
And, I had to hand-type the text from the PDF, so I really think I should be feted from one end of the country to the other. Okay, maybe that’s going overboard.

Why would anyone want to be fetid?

22 posted on 12/07/2010 9:22:31 PM PST by Rocky (REPEAL IT!)
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To: SunkenCiv
Histories and mysteries eh???

And, I had to hand-type the text from the PDF...

I don't get it.

23 posted on 12/07/2010 11:44:01 PM PST by ForGod'sSake (You have just two choices: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: ForGod'sSake

Sure you did, it’s up in message one. ;’)


24 posted on 12/08/2010 10:13:13 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: Rocky

Maybe it’s fated.


25 posted on 12/08/2010 10:14:46 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv
Well yeah, but is there a reason you couldn't copy and paste the text??? From the file, eg:
Nubian name.11 Although the outer right name ring is incomplete, its name can be clearly restored as ‘°F»C‘°, R- t- n- w + [Xr.]t, or as‘°F»w‘°, R-t- n- w + [Hr.]t— i.e., (Upper) Retenu. Slab no. 21687 has been tentatively dated by Manfred Görg to the Nineteenth Dynasty—possibly to the reign of Ramesses II— primarily because the mention of the three names (see below) resembles that of Merenptah’s “Israel Stele” rather closely.12 e date may be further supported by additional iconographic features from the same reign at the temple of Karnak (Ashkelon Wall) and a possible vorlage from the reign of Ramesses II.13 Alternatively, the relief may be older (as originally suggested by Görg and Raphael Giveon, who dated it to the Eighteenth Dynasty).14 There is also a band of hieroglyphs carved above the heads of the prisoners depicted on slab no. 21687 that reads: .C°¾»4C¼¼ª°õ , [ . . . ] Xtb.wXrrd. wi=f [ . . . ]: “one, who is falling on his feet . . .”
Granted it's not very "clean"(symbols wouldn't transcribe for eg) but with a little housekeeping would serve the purpose, no? I'm just curious if there's something I'm missing here. Or maybe it's more trouble to copy and clean than retype???
26 posted on 12/08/2010 11:18:14 AM PST by ForGod'sSake (You have just two choices: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: ForGod'sSake

As I noted earlier, I could do that under OS X, but I’m running a 15 year old machine (original hard drive, btw) under 9.2.2.


27 posted on 12/08/2010 11:29:12 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: ForGod'sSake

The other method is to take a screen shot — which can then be cropped and looks exactly like the original — and upload it to Tinypic, but I haven’t been able to get Tinypic to work in a year, it won’t accept my uploads.


28 posted on 12/08/2010 11:30:58 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Thorughout history, it is ‘your’ land if you can take it and hold it.

“Get off this estate.
What for?
Because it is mine.
Where did you get it?
From my father.
Where did he get it?
From his father.
And where did he get it?
He fought for it.
Well, I’ll fight you for it.

–Carl Sandburg, poet and biographer (January 6, 1878 – July 22, 1967)


29 posted on 12/08/2010 11:42:54 AM PST by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
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To: SunkenCiv
Understood. Pardon my nosiness...   ;^)
30 posted on 12/08/2010 12:11:43 PM PST by ForGod'sSake (You have just two choices: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: ForGod'sSake

I also considered doing the screen save, then clipping out the “problem” parts (the weirdo fonts), saving those as tiny graphics files, then doing a graphic-to-TABLE conversion, that would have worked, but wow, the time.


31 posted on 12/08/2010 12:18:38 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Waaaaaay too much trouble. You already went above and beyond the call of duty. Thanks!


32 posted on 12/08/2010 12:44:41 PM PST by ForGod'sSake (You have just two choices: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: SunkenCiv

Thank you!


33 posted on 12/09/2010 2:15:13 AM PST by Bellflower (All meaning is in The LORD.)
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To: Bellflower

My pleasure. Y’know, that gets me thinking, I’d better check the filename I saved all this under, because basically always I misspell the name of this pharaoh.


34 posted on 12/09/2010 4:19:16 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv
and with the number of the Israelites (about two million, including women and children) in the days of the Exodus, after some two hundred years of sojourning in Egypt. [pp.173-4]

Didn't they sojourn in Egypt for 400 years?
35 posted on 12/09/2010 4:24:18 AM PST by aruanan
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To: ForGod'sSake
The online version of the graphic-to-TABLE converter outputs to CSS, which makes for too large a file, so I do a search and replace. I'm thinking of building a little program to do it fast though. Here's a result -- the bastards at Tinypic removed a few that I used to use (not sure where they'd come from, but I'd saved them, so I shrank 'em a bit to save size, and got the result, such as this one:

36 posted on 12/09/2010 4:26:05 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: ForGod'sSake

Thanks! I’ll send the usual five bucks for that one. ;’)


37 posted on 12/09/2010 7:02:01 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: aruanan

Mmmmaybe. :')
Joseph and Potiphar
by Immanuel Velikovsky
[R]ealizing that the sojourn of the Israelites in Egypt took place not during the New Kingdom but during the preceding Middle Kingdom, in order to find out whether the personality of Joseph or the patron of the early stage of his career, Potiphar, is referred to in the historical documents, we have to look into those of the Middle Kingdom. The task appears simple. According to the Book of Genesis Potiphar was "an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the guard." In the register of the private names to the Ancient Records of Egypt by James Breasted, we find the name Ptahwer. Ptahwer was at the service of the Pharaoh Amenemhet III of the Twelfth Dynasty of the Middle Kingdom. According to an inscription of Ptahwer at Sarbut el-Khadem in Sinai dated in the forty-fifth year of Amenemhet III, his office was that of "master of the double cabinet, chief of the treasury." ...Since there is only one Ptahwer in the historical documents, and since he lived in the time when we expect to find him, we are probably not wrong in identifying the biblical Potiphar with the historical Ptahwer... In the days of Amenemhet III there occurred in Egypt a famine enduring nine long years... Thus it seems that the Pharaoh in whose days was the seven years' famine was the successor of the Pharaoh in whose days began the rise of Joseph's career (if Yatu is Joseph). Potiphar, who lived under Amenemhet III, probably lived also under his successor. The inscription which deals with Ptahwer mentions a man whose name is transliterated by Breasted as Y-t-w. Among the monuments of Amenemhet III's reign is one of the Storekeeper who was honored together with two other persons... If we remember that according to the Scriptural narrative Joseph was appointed storekeeper of the State (Gen. 41:40-41) in anticipation of the seven lean years, with the powers of a chief Minister of State or Vice-King, we may suspect in Yatu the Biblical Joseph. In the Scriptures it is said that his name was changed by Pharaoh to Zaphnath-paaneah, but still his original name may have been in use until he became next to the Pharaoh in importance.
Rohl (in "Pharaohs and Kings") follows Kenneth Kitchen that Zaphnath-paaneah translates as "he who is called Pa'aneah", and that Pa'aneah was really Ipiankhu, a name common in the Middle Kingdom but "'not any later.'" His Biblical wife Asenath was named "Ius-en-at ('she belongs to you')". [p 350]


38 posted on 12/09/2010 7:42:25 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: SunkenCiv
Hmmmm. Since nothing showed up after your ":" except empty space I did a partial source lookup just for grins and found an amazingly LONG string of more or less nonsensical HTML. So, I don't know what you were trying to do.

Oh, and hang on to the five bucks for now. It might put me in a higher tax bracket. I'll know more after the first of the year...

39 posted on 12/09/2010 7:51:56 PM PST by ForGod'sSake (You have just two choices: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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To: ForGod'sSake
Heh... hey, it should look like this:
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
But not every browser behaves 100% the same. :')


40 posted on 12/10/2010 4:05:49 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("The proper study of mankind is man." (Alexander Pope, 'An Essay on Man', 1733))
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Does the Merneptah Stele Contain the First Mention of Israel?
Scholars Manfred Görg, Peter van der Veen and Christoffer Theis say maybe not
Biblical Archaeology Society Staff
01/17/2012
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-israel/does-the-merneptah-stele-contain-the-first-mention-of-israel/


41 posted on 04/21/2014 6:05:19 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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