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Nationalized healthcare ZOT!

Posted on 12/17/2010 7:18:44 PM PST by B_Simons

Sorry if I'm not allowed to post this sort of thread, but I'd rather ask direct questions than interpret answers to other questions an apply them to my own.

I'm from the UK and for school work over the holidays I've got to find and explain/counter arguments for and against a political issue from another country, and I know that healthcare reform is a big one in America at the moment so I picked the easy one.

I've had good experiences with our NHS, and without it I would either be dead or my family would be deeply in debt due to my medical history (liver failure, mainly, which required a transplant). I also have asthma and as I'm 18 and still in full time education my prescribed inhalers are free. My family isn't very wealthy, my dad died when I was young from cancer (luckily his insurance paid off the remainder of the mortgage and a small amount of other debts) and my mum doesn't have a well paying job (below the national mean wage). We live modestly but don't have very financial problems.

So my questions are:

What, exactly is the problem with nationalized/socialized healthcare?

If the problem is due to it being paid for by tax increases, do you expect the increases to be larger or smaller than your current insurance cost?

Do you think it's 'fair' that people who cannot afford health insurance and have expensive medical issues should have to choose between suffering and large amounts of debt?

Do you think the quality of healthcare will improve/worsen with NHC?

Sorry if this thread isn't allowed or isn't in the right place (never used a forum like this before)

Many thanks, Brendan


TOPICS: Health/Medicine
KEYWORDS: britishhealthcare; communism; conservative; healthcare; herekittykitty; ibtz; meowmix; newbie; newbiewithavanity; nhc; obvioustroll; ozone; sniff; socialism; troll; vanity; victorkilo; vk; zot; zotbait; zukuoscartango; zuluoscartango
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To: B_Simons

Question:

Have you ever been to local office of the Department of Motor Vehicles in the U.S.?

If not, please visit one and imagine that employees just like those at the DMV will be administering your health care.

Then come back and post why you would trust those people to do a task more difficult than say, scooping out a cat pan on a daily basis.


21 posted on 12/17/2010 7:42:06 PM PST by randita
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To: B_Simons

Look Brendan. Let me address your asthma. Your inhalers are “free”.

I have asthma too, Brendan. My medicine costs $130 per MONTH that I have to pay for myself, and I am on a fixed income. That is because I and my fellow Americans have to pay for the Research and Development of this wonderful stuff that keeps you and me breathing right. WE here in the States pay for the R&D so you folks in the UK can have it for free. Is that fair?


22 posted on 12/17/2010 7:42:06 PM PST by bergmeid
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To: B_Simons

Most people I know from Great Britain say they like their healthcare. In the next breath they’ll relate some story about a family member that had to fight just to receive the simplest of care.

One friend had a family member who was actively suicidal. After one failed attempt, he was sent home from hospital and his information went into the system to get some psychological help. He was still actively suicidal when he was sent home, but those were the rules and there was no way to have him hospitalized for any longer. He would wake up in the middle of the night and try to kill himself, so my friend stayed up nights watching him. When my friend inquired about when someone would see him, the wait was six months. Six months later, a social worker visited him, determined that he was indeed suicidal and placed him on the next list to actually see a mental health professional. The average wait time was 12-18 months. He attempted suicide twice during this time and disappeared in the middle of the night several times without anyone knowing where he went. Thankfully, he survived long enough to actually receive care from a mental health professional.

Another friend with medical problems was assigned a doctor who obviously didn’t like her and treated her rudely. But, because he was the doctor available, she was unable to change to a different provider. He didn’t take her description of her symptoms seriously and eventually she quit going to the doctor.

I could go on, but if you’re actually from the UK, you’ve heard a million of them yourself.


23 posted on 12/17/2010 7:42:12 PM PST by FourPeas (From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so. Ja 3:10)
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To: B_Simons
I've had good experiences with our NHS, and without it I would either be dead or my family would be deeply in debt...

That's an extremely lazy assumption.

24 posted on 12/17/2010 7:42:20 PM PST by Junior_G (Funny how liberals' love affair with Muslims began on 9/11)
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To: EQAndyBuzz
Everyone will have to participate...except for the politically connected

Remember when Obama was asked if he would put his family on his plan ???

He said NO - he would want the best healthcare available ...

25 posted on 12/17/2010 7:43:53 PM PST by Lmo56 (If ya wanna run with the big dawgs - ya gotta learn to piss in the tall grass ...</i><p>)
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To: B_Simons; Old Sarge; darkwing104; 50mm

buh bye

(FYI, take a look at the n00b’s other two posts)


26 posted on 12/17/2010 7:44:44 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: B_Simons
Here are your most glaring and obvious tells:

1) An actual Brit student of 18 years neither speaks nor writes the way you did in this nonsensical brechenblatt charade.

2) Anyone just looking for the Yank's dichotemy would not preface the query with a longwinded explanation of Britain's own socialist system having "saved their life" several times by the tender age of "18"(!!). Seriously, the stench is appalling from that one.

3) Syntax, sentence structure, colloquialisms, all point to a rather unimaginative, predictably undereducated, dull American liberal with a limited vocabulary. I've worked in London and with and Brits for the past 25 years, and you're not even in the ballpark.

In 25 years, I've never met a Brit who liked their commie Health system. Ever.

Trot along, now, and leave the adults to our serious discussions. There's a good lad.

:-\

27 posted on 12/17/2010 7:51:29 PM PST by Gargantua (Palin ~ Bachmann 2012... cuz "Pa-Bach's a bitch!" (if you're a Liberal or a PDS snart))
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To: B_Simons

This is such mush.

This thread is condemned...


28 posted on 12/17/2010 7:54:21 PM PST by februus
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To: B_Simons

IBTZ


29 posted on 12/17/2010 7:57:03 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis (Want to make $$$? It's easy! Use FR to pimp your blog!)
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To: exDemMom

— no such thing as free health care —

It’s not free to taxpayers, that’s for sure. Government is on the hook to cover EVERYTHING. National health “care” is enormously expensive and inefficient. Private insurance companies, when unmolested by government mandates, are far cheaper and more effective.

For the relative few who really cannot get insurance, there is always emergency room and small clinic care. Not ideal but far better than a brutal Soviet-style medical system.

Bottom line of socialized medicine — longer waiting periods, dirty and decrepit hospitals, and worse recovery rates for sick people.


30 posted on 12/17/2010 7:58:03 PM PST by heye2monn
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To: B_Simons; Darksheare

Do you like kitties? (moggies, if you are really are a Brit)

Viking Kittehs, that is.


31 posted on 12/17/2010 7:58:58 PM PST by dynachrome ("Our forefathers didn't bury their guns. They buried those that tried to take them.")
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To: B_Simons

32 posted on 12/17/2010 7:59:12 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis (Want to make $$$? It's easy! Use FR to pimp your blog!)
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To: B_Simons
Is this your address?


33 posted on 12/17/2010 8:00:24 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis (Want to make $$$? It's easy! Use FR to pimp your blog!)
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To: 50mm; darkwing104

34 posted on 12/17/2010 8:02:10 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis (Want to make $$$? It's easy! Use FR to pimp your blog!)
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To: B_Simons

Do you think it’s ‘fair’ that people who cannot afford health insurance and have expensive medical issues should have to choose between suffering and large amounts of debt?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, it’s not fair. But that’s not the point. The point is purely a governance one. That is, does a national government have the authority to enforce fairness on every facet of our lives? And at any cost to our wallets and freedoms? Does a national government have the authority to take over a portion of the insurance industry and exert its will over the medical fields?

And more importantly, SHOULD a national government have this authority and should we as free citizens allow it to happen? My answer is no.

Your own personal medical predicament is not really part of this debate. I know that sounds cold, but it is the hard painful unpleasant fact of the matter. Your own personal struggles are not my government’s problem. Good luck to you.


35 posted on 12/17/2010 8:03:15 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: dynachrome

The smell of ozone is strong with this one!


36 posted on 12/17/2010 8:03:30 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis (Want to make $$$? It's easy! Use FR to pimp your blog!)
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To: IYellAtMyTV

Great Pic :)


37 posted on 12/17/2010 8:05:06 PM PST by Freedom56v2 ("If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait till it is free"--PJ O'rourke)
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To: B_Simons

Do you think it’s fair that a buerocrat decides what care you get? Do you really think that your system gives everyone unlimited access to health care, or does it ration care, even if you don’t “perceive” the rationing? Some in America like to be masters of their own destiny, hard concept to understand for some.

The greatest health care system in regards to technology, pharma, procedurally, is right here in the US. There is a reason, the system allows people to make real money, gives people choices, etc..... National health care deincentivizes innovation and investment. From azt to zithromax, even in your uk you will use drugs first produced and marketed in the US in some cases by European drug firms!

Yes, you have a right to fail just like you have the opportunity to get rich. Anyone can have insurance. It’s a lie that insurance is overly expensive, inaccessible etc. Walmart and McDonalds offer it to their employees, every college student can get it for little........ It is not the role of government to by law dictate what you have to purchase, to include insurance. If you make bad choices and are unfortunate, that’s on you. Yes, it’s perfectly fine that some people go into debt when they become I’ll, because if you care check it, they did have a choice in the equation at some point.

I like the idea of being a customer, of having legal recourse, of having the doctor know that “I” pay him and that what “I” think matters. I have choices. My insurance is a private matter, it’s a legal contract that I enter in with an insurance that negotiates lower fees and levels/manages risk. The buerocrat is nothing more than another layer of red tape, where political favors are paid for with my money, and in the end, EVERY health care system on this planet has to ration care, but at least here “I” choose how that care looks, you?


38 posted on 12/17/2010 8:07:39 PM PST by Red6
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To: B_Simons
What, exactly is the problem with nationalized/socialized healthcare?

There are a number of problems, some of which will be addressed in replies to your questions below, some of which are actually shared by the American system, which is why many of us on FR advocate market-based reform of that system.

First, all third-party payer systems, whether nationalized health care or the heavily-regulated, insurance-dominated American system, have no means of cost containment other than rationing of care. There is no effective competition among health care providers because there is not mechanism for passing price information to the purchasers/patients. A monopsony only exacerbates this problem.

Second, governments tend to be very inefficient in the provision of goods and services in comparison to the market.

If the problem is due to it being paid for by tax increases, do you expect the increases to be larger or smaller than your current insurance cost?

Larger, due to government inefficiency.

Do you think it's 'fair' that people who cannot afford health insurance and have expensive medical issues should have to choose between suffering and large amounts of debt?

There are different notions of fairness. Is it fair for the state to deprive us of the fruits of a labours unwillingly through taxation to succor the needs of people in the circumstances you propose? Or even if fair under your notion of fairness, is it desirable to impose such fairness by force?

And why limit your argument to healthcare? Is it fair that some cannot afford as good of food as others or no food at all? Is it fair that some cannot afford shelter? or clothing? or a motorcar to get to work (on this side of the Pond, distances are rather larger and rail and bus service rather sparser)? And on and on. . .

If we are Christians, it is incumbent on us as a matter of charity to provide for those in need. But even St. John Chrysostom, who in exhortations to the wealthy to engage in charity characterized the wealth of the rich as "theft from the poor", wrote strongly against the moral hazards of state imposed redistribution of wealth.

The state is not the only social institution able to provide aid (medical care included) to those in need.

Do you think the quality of healthcare will improve/worsen with NHC?

Worsen, due chiefly to rationing and a decline in the desirability of medicine as a profession.

Finally, I will answer a question you did not ask: what reform would you advocate to the American healthcare system?

1. Equalization of tax treatment for employer-provided health insurance and health insurance purchased by the insured.

2. Creation of a mechanism by which individuals wishing to purchase health insurance for themselves or employees of a small business could band together to form voluntary health insurance purchasing groups to give them corresponding leverage with insurance companies to that exercised by large employers or labour unions.

3. Increase in effective competition in the provision of medical services by
a) insurance regulations requiring payments for services by the insured be a percentage of the cost, not a fixed copayment (this encourages finding the least expensive provider)
b) improvement of the regulatory and malpractice insurance climate for marginal competitors to physicians (nurse-practitioners, nurse-midwives, psychologists with special training to earn prescription privileges. . .)
c) requirements that physicians and hospitals publish rates for services

4. Utility-style regulation of prices for medical goods and services when a state-granted monopoly exists. This should include monopolies on pharmaceuticals, medical devices or procedures created by patent law, and might arguably include even physician's services in areas where no effective competition exists. (I find guild-monopolies as objectionable as corporate or state monopolies.) 5. Tort reform to lower malpractice insurance costs. I would propose capping non-compensatory damages (both punitive and pain-and-suffering awards) at the larger of $100,000 and three times compensatory damages (though I would allow loss of income as compensatory damages). But in conjunction with this, I would strengthen regulatory and criminal sanctions against malpractice.

39 posted on 12/17/2010 8:12:28 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: B_Simons; darkwing104; 50mm; Old Sarge; 230FMJ; A.Hun; abigailsmybaby; AFPhys; Aircop_2006; ...
Hmmmm. B_Simons has a funny smell.


40 posted on 12/17/2010 8:19:16 PM PST by 50mm (What?)
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