Skip to comments.Prince Madoc and the Discovery of America
Posted on 01/06/2011 9:51:05 PM PST by Palter
Who discovered America? It's a simple question and one that usually brings the standard response - Christopher Columbus. But here in Wales we have our own theory. And that theory says that America was actually discovered 300 years before Columbus sailed "the ocean blue" in 1492 - and more importantly, that it was discovered by a Welshman.
Mandan Indians used Bull Boats for transport and fishing that are identical to the Welsh coracle.
The man in question was Prince Madoc, the son of Owain Gwynedd, one of the greatest and most important rulers in the country, and while the legend cannot be corroborated there are many who believe it implicitly. Owain Gwynedd certainly existed, his reign being marred by long and hard-fought disputes with Henry II, king of England.
The story goes that in 1170 Owain died and, almost immediately, a violent and very bloody dispute arose between his 13 children regarding the succession. Madoc and his brother Rhirid were so upset and angered by events that they decided they wanted no further part in what was happening. Indeed, they wanted nothing more to do with their family or their homeland. They duly took ship from Rhos on Sea (Llandrillo) and sailed westwards to see what they could find.
What Prince Madoc found, so the legend runs, was America. He and his brother managed to cross the Atlantic and land on the shores of the New World. Madoc returned to Gwynedd for more men, then sailed off again, this time never to return. His sailors inter-married with a local Native American tribe and for years the rumour of Welsh speaking Native American tribes was widely believed.
(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...
Old, but I can’t refuse a Madoc thread post.
Actually, most kids learn that it was Leif Garrett, child Tiger Beat heartthrob and now actor on those “World’s Dumbest” shows, who discovered America.
I am pretty sure no one thinks Chris Colon did it...
Thanks. If there was an “ice age” there would have been larger land masses and traveling between the continents might not have been as difficult as we think.
“His sailors inter-married with a local Native American tribe..”
This is why most American Indians can sing like Tom Jones and Englebert or that wee Sheena Easton.
Barry Fell/America B.C. ping
Red Pandas now found in China, Burma, Nepal and Tennessee.
Mandan Bull Boats and Lodges
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think if you sail westward from Wales, you end up in Ireland...
Sure, if your sober.
Not if the Welshman has a brain in his head...and wants to keep it there.
Paddle faster, Daffyd; paddle as if yer life depends upon it, because mine sure does!
Lol... but did you know that Sheena Easton is a Scot, and Englebert Humperdink is an "Anglo-Indian", but of EAST Indian descent ?
And the Indians greeted the Prince with the famous line, “Aaah, what’s up, Madoc?”
Oof! You’ve just earned one scalping! LOL!
Just goes to show that finding is not as important as keeping.
Do the melungeons ever claim heritage from the Welsh?
heh heh! Tom Jones! It’s not impossible to .... :-P
well, yes, Englebert Humperdinck is half-Indian, half-English (I hate the term “Indian” for native Americans!), just like Cliff Richards
you are so correct! I wonder how Looney Tunes managed to capture that rare moment? :-P
when i was growing up in the UK many moons a go we had a joke,
Q: What is an Irishman?
A: A Welshman that can swim.
Q: Why is the grass so green in Ireland?
A: Because they are all over here walking on ours.
Ok let the irish flaming begin.
I think the melungeons claim to be Portuguese.
There was always a problem because when friendly Indians asked the Welshmen where they from they replied Cywnegorswtmgicelistaw. The Indians thought they were being rude and killed them
Click here to sign the petition.
BTW, SunkenCiv and I signed years ago.
The primary researcher discovered almost immediately that the Spanish ran a POW camp in South Carolina. They took prisoners there who they'd captured in battles in the Balkans or the Eastern Mediterranean.
In those times it was typical for the Spanish to simply dispose of any Moslems they captured as being ineducable. On the other hand, although the Roman and Greek churches were at odds in the 1500s, any Orthodox soldiers or sailors taken prisoner probably made up the greater part of those folks who went to the POW camp.
However, there's evidence that the Spanish didn't just kill all the Moslems because virtually every Melungeon checked so far has a "marker DNA sequence" unique to themselves and a group of descendants of black slaves brought to Karachi in what is now Pakistan way back in the 1200s or 1300s. Somehow that group's genetic marker got to the Americas. It's hypothesized that a group of these folks in Karachi were taken to the Middle East by the Turks and they ended up in the Turkish Navy or maybe an Army unit somewhere in the Balkans where they could encounter the Spanish or other Christians in any one of a number of wars that went on in that period.
The focus is on the Melungeons having their origins in America as an identifiable special population sometime in the 1500s. The Melungeons also have considerable European ancestry, and American Indian forebears. Both may well derive from intermarriage with Eastern Cherokee, or Iroquois, or maybe even Ojibway-Chippewa themselves (with a whole huge Sa'ami component).
Always remember, the Cherokee were a mixed people themselves, and there were those who were very light and those who are very dark. They were just like today's Americans ~ some light, some dark, some inbetween and frequently with no idea how they got that way.
Prince Madoc derives from centuries before the time of the Melungeon formation.
BTW, because people met European looking "Indians" from the earliest times there was always this ambition to explain it with "recent" European contact ~ not Ice Age contact. Now that we know there was Ice Age contact, the questions have changed.
Awwwwwwww ~ he’s cute!!!!!!!!!!
I find it really fascinating that some of their descendants had stated that the family story passed on down had always mentioned that they were of Turkish descent.
I had NO idea that they'd concluded that the Melungeons trace back to 1500s America, that is really early.
I didn't know about the Spanish prison in South Carolina, that's fascinating.
I've read that there were several european countries which sent boatloads of gypsies to the shores of North and South America in the 1600s --- trying to rid their own countries of nations of gypsies and literally dumping them on the shores. Evidentally many of their descendants are in Brazil.
1500s - THAT is so early, SO early, there must be many millions of contemporary Americans who have no idea that they descend from one of these original immigrant prisoners. What an exotic background!!
You mean like this red panda?
Anybody, but especially scientists, who assume that the Prehistorical era(s) were static and lacked adventurers / explorers is a fool. The concept of seeking greener fields just over that hill probably originated with Ogg&Ugg.
There is a Smithsonian Scientist who postulates that the Clovis Arrowhead may have been a copy of similar arrowheads being used in Ice Age France and brought to the New World by nomadic hunters of seals and the like moving along the ice sheets.
To assume that there have not been individual and small group influences is a fallacy BUT it is Columbus who made the New World a lasting reality as his discovery was the PERMANENT ONE!
I always wondered why Englebert look different. He and Tom made a boatload of money singing a lot of cheezy songs.
What's New Pussycat? I mean come on. Personally I would rather listen to Scotsman Rod Stewart. His song Reason to Believe is an outstanding old number. Far better than that Bye Bye Bye Delila rubbish by Tom.
They discovered Ireland. LOL! There is no way anyone is going to sail in these little rowboats from Wales to North America. Out of curiousity - I wonder how many ships from Spain and other countries during Columbus and other explorers never made it.
Crossing the Atlantic in the early 20th century was no picnic - see the Titanic.
I thought the Indians greeted the Welshmen with “What’s New Pussycat? Whoa Whoa Whoa...What’s New Pussycat?”
I did not know that about Cliff Richards.
It is interesting that mixed race/ethnicities are disproportionately represented in Entertainment.
I think of Sade, and many others...also very common in South Africa.
Let me understand what you are saying about the Chippewa: are they truly partly descendents of Sa’ami, or is it that Sa’ami intermarried with Chippewa when they immigrated to North America?
The Chippewa, etc. who carry the identifying Sa'ami X-factor DNA sequence came to America and married into the Sa'ami.
Rod Stewart... be still my heart, lol.
His raspy voice has delevered some great ballads and rock music.
He’s a tall Scot, unlike the wee Sheena, whose “Almost Over You” is one of the most haunting songs ever recorded.
So....did the Sa’ami come via the Atlantic Icepack, or via Berengia ?
And was this when their homeland (?) was east of the Urals before they emigrated to the Northern Scandinavia and Russian taiga?
As the ice began to withdraw to the North from about 14,000 years ago they headed DUE NORTH from the Western European Refugia to NORWAY and went all the way to the top of the Fenno-Scandian Peninsula along the Arctic ocean.
Other Europeans departed to the East and skirted around the Southern edge of the Scandinavian residual Ice Sheet and also headed North to the East.
They were well in place all around Scandinavia by the end of the Younger Dryas episode. At that time "other Europeans" showed up from Central Europe ~ their presence is noted in the incidence of certain haplogroup densities in the current Sa'ami population.
There was another mid-latitude European Refugia on the Adriatic called The Serbian Refugia. As the ice withdraw from the North these people moved in following the developing forests and fields, and game. They became the greater source of the Eastern European populations ~ including the Russians.
They were in place mostly by 7500 years ago.
These same people, and probably the Sa'ami, spread East into Russia, the Russian Taiga, the Steppes and took their languages with them.
Some thousands of years later people from the Middle East moved North into the same regions (and gave the residents tans). It is quite literally not until modern times that any large number of East Asian populations managed to move into Europe ~ whether Eastern, Western, Central, Southern, or Northern. We know all about them.
They are not ancestral to the Sa'ami.
More relevant, though, you can find scattered populations of East Asians who have members who carry the Sa'ami X-factor genetic sequence. All such populations heard reindeer. It is safely presumed that since it's the East Asian/Siberian reindeer who were the world's first domesticated animals that Western Sa'ami genes were introduced in a series of bridal trades across North Asia ~ in exchange for what are called "pet reindeer". These aren't exactly the same breed as the wild ones but derive from a very long line of domestic reindeer ~ which must necessarily come from the Far East.
In the end, for a variety of reasons, the Sa'ami and all other Europeans have about a 5% East Asian ancestry, and all East Asians have about a 5% European ancestry.
I hope you didn't have the idea the Sa'ami are Asiatic because they are not ~ it's much more likely for an Indo-European to have Asiatic ancestry.
The 20% of Sa'ami who appear to have Asiatic facial features actually show residual features much more typical of our common Cro-Magnon ancestors. In short, REAL WHITE FOLKS got "backward eyes".
It's been within a decade that anthropologists and geologists working together decided that the Ice Age North Atlantic Sea Ice came down as far as the Western European Refugia. That would have been an especially rich seal hunting ground all across the face of the ice all the way to America.
Knowing that it becomes hard to believe the Sa'ami (or proto Sa'ami) wouldn't have trekked the ice across the Atlantic to become what we know as the Clovis Culture.
Rod was possibly good enough to play professional football (soccer) when he was a wee lad. He always comes across as pleasant and charming. He is nice to his ex-wives and they all seem to remain friends.
I used to love watching the Bill Forsynth films about Scotland. Gregory’s Girl with Claire Grogan who sang in a band the did “I Could Be Happy” and a song called Happy Birthday but not the Happy Birthday.
Another one was Comfort and Joy with Bill Paterson. Calre Grogan was in that one too. Local Hero was his big film and one of Burt Lancaster’s last films. If you like Scotland then check them out.
Darker Scottish films with Ewan McGregor include Trainspotting and very creepy but excellent Shallow Grave.
No. From your postings and website referrals, I can see that Sa'ami are "European" although, as you indicate they have a distinct look from other Scandinavians.
I thought perhaps they were part of the pro-to Eurasians that evetually became Jomans and Native Americans.
The 20% of Sa'ami who appear to have Asiatic facial features actually show residual features much more typical of our common Cro-Magnon ancestors. In short, REAL WHITE FOLKS got "backward eyes".
Is this perhaps because of the advantage that an epithelial fold provided against snow blindness ?
This can also be seen in Celts such as the Welsh such Catherine Zeta Jones (before she had her eyes "fixed").
That makes sense that Solutrean/Clovis culture is derived from the Sa'ami.
They brought their birchbark and teepee culture to this continent.
So Hiawatha was a Sa'ami!
Are the Mari of the same ancestry as the Sa'ami, or is their similarity a result of cultural diffusion?
Oh, I've seen "Gregory's Girl". I'll check out his other films.
Grandma was Scotch-Irish, via the great wave that landed in Canada, then her grandfather moved south.
So I have a claim to the MacGregors.
After Obama was elected - I was done with TV. It is all trash and it all supports him. I will never go back to it.
Same thing with Hollywood love affair with the marxist.
I prefer Scottish films, German, Italian but not the English ones that push the gay and PC agendas all the time.
Bill Forsyth’s little films are a lot of fun.
The Jomon, Chinese, white people, Sa'ami and a few others all have a common ancestry that spent much of the last Ice Age in South Central Asia.
There were a couple of good interstadials and that common ancestry moved North and then split into two groups, one going West to Europe and the other going East north of the Himalayas to the Far East.
That was about 35,000 years ago ~ when those cave paintings show up.
Once the East Asian branch moved East of the Himalayas and out of the desert country (still present just NW of Peiping) they split into two groups. One group moved on East to settle in the plain between the Huang Ho and the Yangtse. The other group moved to the South East. Over vast amounts of time many of them settled in what is now Japan but then was just an extension of the Asian Mainland into the Pacific.
Eventually those two groups were divided as the ocean rose at the end of the iceage 14,000 years ago. The folks in Japan are who we call the Jomon, and later the Emeshi (who turned into the Samurai under the leadership of an invading Chinese leadership group we today call the Japanese Royal Families and the Daimyo Families).
In one of those quirks of fate the Jomon's relatives had moved to the East Asian Maritimes. When the Medieval Japanese evacuated Hokkaido and the Northern Islands the Jomon-type people in the Maritimes simply moved into the coastal areas of the North and became known as the Ainu. Some Ainu also settled in Taiwan before the Chinese. Apparently more modern Japanese pirates settled there too!
The greater part of the East Asian people settled China so you'll want to see their history. The furthest West Chinese ran a trade route from Siberia to India. They produced Buddha (among others) and ruled much of India for a number of centuries. They acquired all the good lookin' gals in India and consequently ended up looking a tad different than all the other East Asians.
About the time of the start of the Dark Ages they invaded Japan, took over the Chinese rice growing regions (which had been under development for over 1000 years) and began a multicentury war against the Emeshi (the Jomon).
The Cro-Magnons that went West in that interstadial appear to have occupied all of Europe. Most of them were wiped out by the advancing ice and deteriorating climate. Some small populations remained in three Refugia ~ one of which was at the Western end of the Pyranees, on in Sebia and another further South in Italy. There are probably more but we just haven't discovered them yet.
As the ice began melting 14,000 years ago part of the people in the Western Refugia went due North. Part of went East and North East. Part went South to North Africa. Some part of it certainly went far East!
While "trapped" in the refugia all of these populations developed some different characteristics. The Sa'ami, being the ones longest isolated from the others, and having what seems to have been the smallest population, retain many of the ORIGINAL characteristics ~ rounder heads, different eyelids, coloration, and so on. The group with the largest population, those left in what is now Spain and France, diverged the most from the original base (larger populations allow new alleles to propagate more widely). That's where you find the recreation of the Northwestern European Red Hair ~ and possibly even the gene for suppression of pigment production. Blondism arises out of yet other genes and, in most European populations may be of quite recent origin ~ maybe within the last 5000 years ('before which they were all swarthy hairy people looking remarkably like their cousins in India and such).
In the far North where the Sa'ami live blondism arises out of simple selection for a low level of melanin production ~ since you gotta' have all the light skin you can get to produce enough Vitamin D to live there. Other "white" populations, including the Chinese, have genes that actually block melanin production except under certain circumstances ~ like "it's summer and time to tan".
The problem is they can't go back! The trip West is very difficult. The trip East is possible for a guy in a rowboat.
BTW, the pro-Finn side in this debate argues that Sa'ami languages are part of a group better typified by Finnish. There's another school of thought that the Sa'ami languages form two small groups, and that the Finno-Ugric, Hungarian and Estonian languages derive much of their grammatical structure from both ~ in roughly different measures. This is rather like the situation involving the Iroquoian languages ~ the central core warrior elite among the Mingo/Iriquoian ethnicity were tributary to the Huron for several centuries. Words were traded. Grammatical rules were swapped. Accents merged and divided.
The same thing happened when Sa'ami began contact with the more primitive proto-Indo-European tribes in the BC period (way back there).
My personal theory about that period is that the Sa'ami were sufficiently capable in Southern Scandinavia to pretty much chase the proto-Indo-Europeans South of the Carpathians, and maybe even into the Urals.
Through time their presence in a more Southern district gave them access to agricultural advances, and they began to push back.
This doesn't mean war ~ in paleolithic and neolithic societies simply having greater access to local resources gave you an insurmountable reproductive success rate. Those who were better hunters moved North and lost the adantage.
Except for trade these people may have had no other contacts.
In the 1600s the Iroquois took the position of middle-men in the English fur trade. They made the long treks to the interior. In New France, white men played thesame part. We call them Courier du Bois. The lifestyle of the Iroquois and the Courier from about 1650 to 1750 was pretty much identical. I envision the Sa'ami and the proto-Finns being pretty much the same.
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