Skip to comments.Toyota Fail: More Media Hype From the MSM.(Funny but True)
Posted on 02/09/2011 9:03:48 PM PST by Lazlo in PA
So roughly a year ago, reporters went batpoop crazy over possessed Toyotas that accelerate without your consent smashing into other sedans, running into and over people, or worse: ruining floral mailboxes that look like miniature versions of stately homes.
Well, if youre like me, you knew this might be B.S.
(Excerpt) Read more at bighollywood.breitbart.com ...
Wow, putting your foot on the gas instead of the brake causes the car to accelerate. Who would’ve thunk it?
It’s the same as the Audi 5000 “problem.”
LOL. I forgot about the 5000. That was a real 60 Minutes fabrication. Almost destroyed the car company in the US.
you ever had a computer “hang” or freeze?
Think real careful before buying a car that has computer controlled
so if the computer hangs when the last input was speed up, and the brakes are computer controlled, and the transmission will no longer shift out of gear.....
but wait, I am sure you are confident that a California state trooper (off duty), simply made a mistake, even when on his celll phone telling people he could not shift the vehicle out of drive, could no slow down, and the brakes could not stop the vehicle......maybe he was conspiring to make toyota look bad, to the extent he crashed killing himself and his entire family?
I am a computer “guy” and the though of a “fly by wire” car scares me.
I won’t buy or own one. sorry. I am not betting my life on a it.
the original article mentioned he was talking on the cell telling that he could not shift out of drive, and could not slow dow. Lexus is a dvision of Toyota.
No, toyota is not the only offender in this area, but again, a “fly by wire” car can always cause these sorts of problems.
There are no requirements that he computers be redundant, or the controls failsafe if the computer fails.
For example the space shuttle has 7 computers that “vote” on control movements.
The government should have safety regulations such that if a 50 cent microprocessor fails the car will not continue to accelerate, and be unable to shift, or to stop.
Manufacturers are even now talking about electric steering that is computer controlled. So there would be NO linkage from the cab of the car to the engine/transmission. Just a wire sending commands. And they could do variable steering in software.
Well, I have 2 degrees in Computer Science, and I am not gonna be driving a car with non fail-safe controls.
Maybe we could convince all the liberals to drive “fly by wire” cars, and just sit back and wait......
There is a fail safe; you can turn the car off. In the case of the state trooper, it was a loaner car, and he wasn’t familiar with the keyless ignition system.
I don’t guess you have seen the new cars don’t have Keys.
They have “push” to start button. The job of the “key” fob is to tell the computer that you are legal to start the car, unlock doors, etc.
They sell this as an advantage - you get within 20 feet of your car, and the doors unlock automatically, no need to get your key out of your pocket, it senses the key within 20 feet - just press the start button.
Don’t tell you haven’t seen the 10000000 comercials showing someone happily pressing the “start” button?
And, BTW, the LEXUS has PTS - push to start. NO KEY TO TURN OFF!
Sorry - try again
Just because the guy was a cop doesn't mean he knew how to drive. This was an unfamiliar car and we have no idea if he just didn't know how to operate the vehicle other than a third persons panicked phone call to 911. Your whole argument is based on this indecent. Have you noticed no other episodes have occurred since then? Many of the "problems" at the time were immediately sourced as scams to sue Toyota.
I would generally agree with you if "fly by wire" cars were causing a steady stream of problems. There just haven't been any. I dislike these cars for maintenance reasons, but as for safety, the jury is still out.
Also take note that this MSM panic happened at the exact time GM was on the skids and the Gov't took them over. They really needed their competition to take a hit as they rolled into #1 car manufacturer. There are no coincidences.
Heres the proof Lexus has Push To Start
Admit it, most people swallow the crap put out by the manufacturers.
As I said before, there should be regulation to stop this crap.
For example, you have to have anti-kick technology on chain saws, and dead-man ignition kills switches on many motorized devices.
Why, when it comes to cars, do we loose all common sense?
Not intuitive, but on pushbutton ignition systems you can push and sold the start button to kill the ignition. Sort of like M/S Windows.
TWO things CAN be true
1) Government and Media overblows the problem, and misses the real cause
2) There IS a problem, and it’s endemic to design in any fly-by-wire system without fail-safes and redundant computers
Just because you have hit on #1, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
I have experience programming everything from microprocessors to Cray supercomputers —— Fly by wire is a BAD IDEA. PEOPLE WILL DIE.
People HAVE died.
Just because the extent and real nature of the problem is not well know does not mean it’s not true.
are your really that dumb?
If your computer HANGS (and shutdown does not work for example), the RESET/POWER button on the computer is HARDWIRED to restart the computer, and it takes seconds/minutes to do so!
So IF the computer is doing something important like, oh, say running your pacemaker or monitoring nuclear equipment, then you may be VERY DEAD.
There IS NO HARD “OFF” on the “push button ignition systems”. The very fact that they are computer controlled should tell you this.
Would YOU GET on a plane run by a WINDOWS computer? Not even Bill Gates would trust windows to run a plane he was riding on.
I knew it was totally nonsense and I’m glad the govt class owned up to it finally....
“Also take note that this MSM panic happened at the exact time GM was on the skids and the Gov’t took them over. They really needed their competition to take a hit as they rolled into #1 car manufacturer. There are no coincidences.”
And, we have a winner!!
I will defer to your expertise on electronics. I just like to see more evidence on the failure of these things before I’m 100%.
The most computer any one of my vast car collection has is the GM ESC system except for my wife’s Town Car and that is pretty basic.
I wont buy or own one. sorry. I am not betting my life on a it.
So where are all these dead people, then?
Not everybody crashes and dies. You have to be hang/crash the control system when the last control output that was sent to the throttle was speeding up.
And you have to have a vehicle that has computer controlled shift, and ignition.
Brakes are besides the point, they won’t hold a car at full throttle.
I don’t think there are any cars with computer controlled electric steering in production right now, but I could be wrong....that would increase deaths higher, because now just basic speed and a computer crash = bad news.
There ARE deaths, but until the industry acknowledges that their basic approach is unsafe, they will be ignored as the cost of doing business.
Did you know how long car manufacturers FOUGHT seat belts and airbags?
Don’t get me wrong, they should NOT be mandatory ,but they should be offered!
As for me, I will PAY EXTRA for a redundant, fail-safe system.......I just want the option -— if someone else wants to trust a 50 cent microprocessor and some pimply faced programmer, then by all means, go right ahead.
By the way, Steve Wozniak, (the technical founder of apple, not the marketing guy), basically said what I am saying - that the microprocessor control is the risky part, and he thinks he can recreate the problem....
I used to test the “surviability” of our systems all the time getting a static electricity generated closer and closer to the equipment. By proper engineering, we could reduce the potential for failures due to voltage spikes, static electricity, electromagnetic interference, etc. Do you know there is a real reason they tell you on the airplane to “turn off you cell phones”?
No, the plane does not crash if someone forgets. But I can take some control electonics, and a cell phone, fail the right final stage transmitter on it, and cause a situation that interferes with radio based communicaiton on the plane. They don’t mess around with safety on planes.
We shouldn’t with cars, either. Each year there are ~ 40-80,000 people KILLED in car accidents. Who says maybe 200 or 300 a year have NOT been caused by microprocessor crashes?
All you have to do is crash the processor at the right time and you have the “event” that you probably won’t survive. This is essentially what Steve Wozniak demonstrated.
Let’s see - believe the Government, or believe the guy who basically invented the home microprocessor based computer.........
Toyota Fail: More Media Hype From the MSM.(Funny but True)
So when does Toyota get:
1. A refund of the penalties they paid
2. An apology for insulting their reputation
Oops, neither will be forthcoming as the insults benefited Government Motors,
Fiat-Chrysler, the UAW and the DNC.
What a fool I was to think that these pigs would act with even a
shred of class!!!
I will NEVER buy another GM/Chrysler product. And maybe even Ford
because they are still bound at the hip to the UAW.
I see... It’s the lack of evidence that proves the conspiracy. Schweet. That’s much easier.
“Maybe we could convince all the liberals to drive fly by wire cars, and just sit back and wait......”
HAAHAHAHA :-). Now that’s an EV I’ll support right off the bat :-)!
The term in the industry, I thought, was “drive by wire” though “fly by wire” technology is widely used in aviation ... I guess it has been adopted by the automotive industry.
I can see how the technology *can* work and be safe. Those 50 cent microcontrollers are pretty robust and reliable these days. Networking them for redundancy is not as hard as it used to be. Still, it’ll take several more years ... I agree 100% that these things should not be on the road right now. The system will have to be as reliable as “fly by wire” systems on modern airplanes. I don’t think these cars have something that reliable ... not when you’re engineering for cost in the case of automobiles. Even a 0.5% failure rate can kill a lot of people.
I think drive by wire faces two big problems ... one is that the driver gets no feedback from the steering mechanism. When you hit a pothole with a traditional steering system, you can *feel* that via the steering wheel and take corrective actions. I cannot see how that happens in a drive by wire system. The system could sense an event like this and give you some indication, but the driver would only *feel* the thud through the chassis ... the steering wheel would do nothing. A force-feedback system could be used, but then the computer is simply going to give you an estimation of the *thud* you encountered.
The other problem I see is, in the event of failure, how does the system know how where to point the wheels! Say the system fails and you are driving 65MPH. It can’t just kill the ignition and let you coast to a stop. You still need to be able to steer!
Something that could work in the interim is a hybrid mechanical/wire system. Primary steering can be handled by wire. A mechanical system could be used as the “backup” in the event of a catastrophic failure of the primary steering system. The mechanical system wouldn’t have to be engineered for “long life” ... in theory (heh heh), it wouldn’t be used much if at all.
Like you, I’ve programmed and designed all sorts of computers (I mainly deal with FPGAs anymore). I can see the benefits of drive by wire, but I prefer to be safe ... this technology has a ways to go in the automotive world :-)!
We are a lot closer than you think.
BTW, you were pretty rude to another poster (why so angry about this?), and claimed computer power switches were hard wired. You are wrong, at least for the last 15 years, with the introduction the ATX specs power switches are soft on/off.
I am glad to find one other person on here that gets it. It is in cases like this that a higher survival IQ is required to really see the big picture. Even very complex systems in the past often had “Manual Override”. Even space systems like Apollo 13. If the movie is at all accurate on that account then all those men would have died without the manual control. Jumbo jet aircraft had manual overrides. Even in the case where the accelerations were caused by a floor mat the fact remains that if these cars had a key to turn off then many dead people would still be alive. That police officer would still be alive. That is as much an electronic failure as any. It is just one that was by design. And Toyota should pay a very steep price for it. The government report is obviously contrived to give a false impression of the truth. Proving once again that you can’t trust a government report. Not a financial one or otherwise. The result is always pre-determined, and the report is written as desired. Over time this will result in many more unnecessary deaths.
It just amazes me to think that one of the first and most primitive electrical devices to ever exist has been removed from these systems and people have died over what could basically be called a “Knife Switch”.
Those who are always into having the latest and greatest of technology to the point of putting aside common sense and calling all old technology obsolete are truly, IQ delinquents. Those are the ones who watch there televisions because it tells them that they should.
The Lexus in question has a power button, which if held down will turn off the car, just like a key.
Yes I am confident the cop made a mistake. Your point being...?
Are you a lawyer pushing this bullshit? It has been PROVEN to be bullshit and yet you persist like a liberal earth first type still trying to get “global-warming” recognized as a fact, long after it has been proven to be bullshit!
I don’t believe in global warming.
I am a professional, having 2 degrees in Computer Science, made my living the past 25 years in CS.
Think about it - what if your car crashed everytime your windows computer did?
I don’t want computers slapped into everything to give them more “features” nobody wants anyway, make the less reliable, less safe and harder to work on.
Essentially, I am the guy who works at the Brand X sausage factory saying, folks, you might not want to eat this type of sausage.
I am sure you are expert in some things, and can tell the smoke from the fire there. Steve Wozniak of all people don’t think non-redundant computers running everything in your car is a bright idea. (He invented the apple II computer)
I was speaking of the reset switch, not the power switch. Power switches are the last ditch effort. And the soft switches on recent ATX power supplies just require a resistor, I think if they havent changed recently, I hacked an ATX power supply to function outside of the case a awhile back, for another project and had to defeat the “soft” switch.
Then stop pushing this proven bullshit as fact.
Maybe they will find the finger of your mashed body still on the start button as they scoop you up. Air force planes have back up computers. And Air force planes have an eject button.
“I am sure you are confident that a California state trooper (off duty), simply made a mistake...”
You mean like not just turing the motor off?
Anything that is uniformly adopted and reported by the MSM is a lie—Next question.
Lovely insult. Thanks. I needed a good put-down.
Oh, and by the way, not to brag, but I've also got a CS degree and have done systems analysis and design for 34 years.
I do hope you treat your clients a bit more kindly than you treated me.
“Think about it - what if your car crashed everytime your windows computer did?”
You’re using a lot of dirty debate tactics, but this is one of the worst. Just because a car’s electrical system can be said to “crash [#1]” when it malfunctions does not mean the car will “crash [#2],” i.e. to undergo sudden damage on impact.
Firstly, not only is there no evidence of a widespread problem with computer malfunctions (let alone property damage, injury, and death), there isn’t much non-anecdotal evidence of it at all. Secondly, even if there were, computer malfunctions do not turn cars into unguided missles. If you know what you’re doing you can save yourself.
“There ARE deaths, but until the industry acknowledges that their basic approach is unsafe, they will be ignored as the cost of doing business.
Did you know how long car manufacturers FOUGHT seat belts and airbags?”
This sounds sinister, and I might join you on the picket line—or, more likely, the bar—against these evil companies. But wait, when you think about it, carmakers are not the only companies that have to factor death into cost-benefit and marketing considerations. People die from bathtubs, for pete’s sake.
Of course, cars are deadlier than tubs. Of course again, everyone knows cars are deadlier, yet they prefer to drive them anyway. Why? Because the ease and comfort of modern technology is worth the risk.
Your only argument is that people aren’t taking an informed risk because they’re being duped by a fog of mystery hanging over the true cost of microcontrollers. All the dozens (hundreds?, thousands?) of deaths and injuries have been covered up, I guess. Various investigations—carried out by people who, if anything, had an interest in finding something damning—which dug up nothing, were shams. Only you, with the help of your superspecial decoder ring, can see the truth.
How long does the hard drive last in your PC? How many microprocessors crash with a power spike?
Cars that do all this stuff by electronics WILL eventually fail. Electronics don't last forever. If your hard drive crashes all you lose are pics and documents. If the PC running your vehicle crashes....
So you don’t fly commercial aviation, either, right?
Take your very example, the computer hard drive. That's the most likely component to fail, and it isn't the electronics that fail, it is the mechanical components.
Bottom line is that just because something is mechanical doesn't mean it is more reliable, you want a well engineered end product.
There is nothing special about mechanical that makes it inherently more reliable than electronics, and vice-versa . I’ll give you an automotive example- I prefer manual transmission. Probably for some of the same irrational reasons that you don’t like electronics; I just like to be in direct control of the car. But is it some panacea beyond that? Over the years I have had a couple complete failures. Master cylinder failed and I couldn’t shift. the sifter mechanism physically got stuck in gear. Meanwhile the wife is happily driving along with her auto transmission, and has some pretty nifty paddle shifters in her current car.
Actually I am very knowledgeable in electronics. It is not that I don’t like things electronic. It is that I am smart enough to know that somethings are too important to leave totally in the hands of electronics and software that are subject to design flaw and just plain component failure. I have no problem with the electronics being there. Just put an over ride on it for in case it fails. That is the way it should be when your life could be on the line.
I have over 2 million air miles.
None of it on Airbus :) You can find plenty video online of what happens when their controls crash. The takeoff crash is really spectacular.
I also am seriously considering not being the first on the new Boeing. Not enough fire protection for me. Also I was on a turboprop that caught fire.....nice thing about it, we were able to divert to an airport that was small, and get on the tarmac in < 5 minutes.
A lot better engineering (and maint) and “operators” flying than when driving a car.
My main point here is that it isn't true that the car couldn't be turned off, and this was some sort of design defect or electronics failure. The driver just didn't know how to turn the car off.
Cars still killed the ignition directly until very recently. I think that some still do. You will never know if holding down the button on those Toyota’s would have killed the ignition or not. You do not know the state of the computer at that time regardless of what this report says. But in any case it takes to long to implement. You can still have all the electronic toys. But the law should say that the ignition should have an instantaneous method of direct killing the ignition.
Now you take a modern industrial machine like a VMC. Those machines are computerized to the max. But then there is that little red button that says “E-STOP”. That means emergency stop. What does that button do. Yes it tells the control to stop the machine, but it does something else. I worked with those machines for some time so I know. In that case the E-Stop button kills the +24 volt power supply to the entire machine. Without that everything stops no matter what the control tries to do. The machine is wired and designed so that it can’t run without it. Someones life may depend on it. It is no different with an automobile. It is required in industry(or used to be) and should likewise be required for an automobile. Explain it away if you like, but it is the way it should be. And for good reason.
Sometimes technology does not move us forward. Sometimes it makes us arrogant and far too dependent on the idea that nothing will go wrong. But sooner or later something will go wrong. Sometimes you need to allow the human brain to take control. You need to leave the human brain with some options to take control in an emergency.