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Windows 8 tablet sooner than we expect? (Next Microsoft OS will embrace tablets better)
ZDNet ^ | 02/17/2011 | James Kendrick

Posted on 02/17/2011 1:00:18 PM PST by SeekAndFind

Microsoft is scrambling to get some traction in the slippery tablet space, even though it invented the genre back in 2002. The next version of Windows, called Windows 8 for now, is supposed to embrace the tablet form better than anything produced to date. That should be a long way out, but information leaked by Dell implies it will release a Windows 8 tablet in Q1 of 2012. Can that timetable be met?

ZDNet’s Mary Jo Foley isn’t betting the farm, but offers an interesting scenario that would allow such aggressive timing on Dell’s part. Her conjecture, and she makes it clear that’s all it is, has Microsoft releasing the system-on-a-chip (SoC) version of Windows 8 first, ahead of the regular versions of Windows for the desktop. Her reasoning is that Microsoft has made it clear it is porting Windows to the ARM platform for quite some time, and pushing it first would allow Dell to meet this aggressive schedule of releasing a Windows 8 tablet early in 2012.

This makes sense for Microsoft, as it would allow them to get back in the tablet game sooner, rather than later. The folks in Redmond need to do this, as the tablet segment is expected to exhibit continued growth for the foreseeable future, and the longer Windows 8 is delayed the further behind it will fall. It is clear that Windows 7 on touch tablets is not going to get Microsoft any tablet market share, so perhaps Windows 8 will be better for producing compelling products. I hope Microsoft does whatever is necessary to speed up the effort to bring a compelling competitor in the tablet space. I also hope they realize to make a good showing in the tablet segment, it’s not just the form factor, nor the OS, but also a good app ecosystem is required that can take advantage of the touch experience


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Computers/Internet; Society
KEYWORDS: hitech; microsoft; mobiledevices; nokia; smartphones; tablets; thistimeforsure; windows8

1 posted on 02/17/2011 1:00:19 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
Just an observation.

Android is FREE and the competition cannot beat the iPad in price or performance.

How does MSFT expect to make a profit, selling a Win8 tablet OS - with high performance requirements, when the competition which uses a FREE operating system, cannot beat Apple?

2 posted on 02/17/2011 1:05:05 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: SeekAndFind

Windows?

Tablet?

Bwahahahahahaha?

I can’t want for the “Blue Tablet of Death”

If Microsoft built cars, they’d be Yugos.

May they rest in h*ll.


3 posted on 02/17/2011 1:05:18 PM PST by Da Coyote
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To: SeekAndFind

Windows is making people dumber.

For example: One virtual folder representing many folders (old school POSIX). Folks “stuff” is all over the damn PC and then they can’t find half of it when they migrate to a new machine.

“Smart” networking. “I can’t connect.” “Did you check the encryption type? WEP, WPA, TKIP, etc..” “Whip huh?”

Next thing they’ll do is get rid of directories and just have everything stored under c:\


4 posted on 02/17/2011 1:09:49 PM PST by TSgt (Colonel Allen West & Michele Bachman - 2012 POTUS Dream Team Ticket!)
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To: SeekAndFind
Microsoft is scrambling to get some traction in the slippery tablet space, even though it invented the genre back in 2002.

Pardon me but this is akin to saying that the Phoenicians or the Irish deserve credit for the American Economy because they landed some sailors on the East Coast a while back. Microsoft lives for it's corporate installed base and for its XBox360 franchises and solid innovation comes from elsewhere.

Between 2002 and 2010 there was plenty of time and talent up there in the Northwest to bring a superior product to the fore, but Microsoft was the proverbial Elephant tripping all over its little Vista problem. To expect this ponderous pachyderm to suddenly become dextrous is a mirage in the distance. Maybe some day MS will wake up but this long-time shareholder has moved on to Apple and my options are doing very well indeed!

5 posted on 02/17/2011 1:11:31 PM PST by SES1066 (Thank you for your vote in November, now let us get to work!)
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To: Da Coyote

...and I'm a PC.

6 posted on 02/17/2011 1:11:47 PM PST by mgstarr ("Some of us drink because we're not poets." Arthur (1981))
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To: SeekAndFind
Related thread:

Verizon exec: We don’t need Windows Phone 7 – or Nokia

7 posted on 02/17/2011 1:22:18 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach ( Support Geert Wilders)
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To: SeekAndFind

Gee, will it have another redundant and stupid menu feature, ala “the ribbon” of Windows 7 ?

Will they rearrange all the familar commands into something so incomprehensible that they have to issue a program so people can find them, ala Office 2007 ?

Just bought a new Dell netbook, and am zotting Windows 7 in favor of XP. It’ll cost me my retail copy of XP Pro, but it’ll be worth it.


8 posted on 02/17/2011 1:25:07 PM PST by jimt
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To: SES1066

Just a bit of M$ trivia, but they had a W3.1 version for tablet PC’s in the early 90’s.

“Windows for Pen Computing
Main article: Windows for Pen Computing

Windows for Pen Computing was a series of Microsoft-produced add-ons for Microsoft Windows versions in the mid-1990s with additional tools for tablet PCs. Windows for Pen Computing (also known as Pen Windows and W4PC) was developed as Microsoft’s Pen computing response to the PenPoint OS by GO Corporation[7]. Windows for Pen Computing was rendered obsolete by the Tablet PC support for Windows XP Tablet PC Edition in 2002.”

Somewhere I have a copy of that puppy.


9 posted on 02/17/2011 1:27:41 PM PST by padre35 (You shall not ignore the laws of God, the Market, the Jungle, and Reciprocity Rm10.10)
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To: SES1066
Microsoft is scrambling to get some traction in the slippery tablet space, even though it invented the genre back in 2002.

Behold the SONICblue ProGear.

Released in 2000, it had a 10.4" touch screen, and was powered by a low-power Transmeta processor. It ran Linux.

10 posted on 02/17/2011 2:22:47 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: Hodar

Supposedly, Windows 8 will come in several flavors, with one or more intended for the tablets, and which would be very conservative as far as resource requirements and resource consumption (battery life).

Thus, it wouldn’t be a power hungry version of Windows 8, but would still offer a better and more powerful experience than the tablets of today.


11 posted on 02/17/2011 4:20:31 PM PST by adorno
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To: adorno
Thus, it wouldn’t be a power hungry version of Windows 8, but would still offer a better and more powerful experience than the tablets of today.

You cannot support Adobe Flash and have reasonable resource consumption - they are mutually exclusive.

There are 2 primary ways to display movies. Hardware acceleration uses specific chips that work with very few codecs - and ALL this chip is able to do - is play that codec. This chip's ONLY function in life, is to play a codec to display a movie. This uses very little power.

The other way is 'Software Emulation' where you use the processing power of the processor to play many different codecs. Now you can 'play' almost every codec known to man - but you must now compute the value of every pixel - and the result is that you chew up power. On a mobile device - this is murder.

So, a iPad gets 10-12 hrs on a charge playing H.264/.mp4 file format movies; or it 'could' run Flash and give you 2-2.5 hours of battery life. That's one of many reasonsy why Apple iPad tablets do not run Flash. And one of many reasons that the Tablets that do run Flash - are not selling well.

12 posted on 02/22/2011 6:33:32 AM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar
You cannot support Adobe Flash and have reasonable resource consumption - they are mutually exclusive.

And, how do you know that, whatever media format Windows 8 ends up using, won't be "reasonable" in its battery consumption?

So, do you know for a fact that Windows 8, tablet version, will be using Adobe Flash?
13 posted on 02/22/2011 4:59:26 PM PST by adorno
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To: adorno

How do I know this.

Golly, maybe because I work in the industry? Maybe because I know what Windows does, how it behaves, how it uses resources.

Ask yourself some really basic questions, things like “Why Windows?” What does Windows offer, that Android, iOS and WebOS do not?

There is a reason why HP cancelled and postponed the Win7 tablet for a freakin’ year. There is a reason why HP bought Palm’s WebOS instead of using MSFT. There is a reason why Folio, Motorola, Panasonic and Sony are all going with Android instead of MSFT. It’s not random.

There is a reason why WinCE failed, why Win7 Mobile is failing despite MSFT dumping Billions (with a ‘B’) into promoting it.

What takes more power? Speaking English and ONLY English - or understaning every known languages and translating them into grammarically perfect English?

Hardware acceleration does One/two formats - and that is all that the chip can understand. In the case of the iPad/iPhone the A4 chip can play H.264 or .mp4 encoded movies - and that is it. It will not play .avi, .wav, .mpeg, or anything else.

Why? Because the movie is played directly through the A4 chip. Now, you can install a progam like VLC that will ‘translate’ software into a format that the A4 chip understands - but that requires that the processor get invovled and do some processing. This takes power - so when you play VLC movies - you drop your ability to use the iPad from 10-12 hours down into the 2+ hour range.

Software Emulation always (as a rule) takes more power than Hardware Acceleration. It’s really that simple.


14 posted on 02/23/2011 7:15:46 AM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar

Wow, dude!

Arrogant much?

Look, being in the industry does not give you a crystal ball into the future, and much less into what’s going to be coming down the pike 1 or 2 or 3 years down the line. I’m in the industry too, but I don’t go around bragging about my credentials in order to try to give my arguments any more strength. In fact, I’ve very likely been in the industry a lot longer than you have.

Now, if you don’t know what Windows 8 is really going to contain as features, and unless you are privy to that information, then you don’t really have anything of value to make your predictions more valuable than that of anyone else.

Come back to this discussion in 1 or 1/2 years, and then, if you are correct, I can take some of your arrogance and you can tell me and everyone else “I told you so!”.

Meanwhile, all that you have is that typical fanbois preference and blustering that is found in a lot of tech blogs where it’s either Apple that is setting the world on fire, and other times it’s Google, and other times, Microsoft.

Don’t do that, it’s not very flattering for a professional.


15 posted on 02/24/2011 6:39:55 PM PST by adorno
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To: adorno
Like a Libtard, all you know are these steps. S-I-N

Sidestep the issues - You too are a professional? And you don't konw this extremely basic concept? What do you do? Shipping and Invoice?

Ignore the facts - Flash is Software Emulation, any newbie to the industry knows this requires considerable memory thrash. Memory Thrash burns cycles, burning cycles also burns power. It's really that simple

Namecall - I'm arrogant, I'm a fanboi?

Do grow up - there is an excuse for not knowing, that's simply a lack of experience. But you exhibit a lack of maturity. That's not name-calling, that's a demonstatable fact; re-read your post, not very mature, in fact it reads like a fairly literate high school student wrote it. Congrats on passing the spell checker test.

There is an intelligent reason Apple went with the A4 processor. In a mobile device, you do everything you can to conserve power. You turn off parts of the chip you aren't using, you constantly put the device into S1 or S2 states, you use power efficient chips, displays and pack the biggest batteries into your left-over space that meet the size/cost ratio you have to work with.

Like it or not, Adobe Flash, Apple's own .avi format, Windows .mvw, the .mkv, .mov, .mod and others REQUIRE processing be done. That's why none of those formats are supported either. Adobe Flash is a resource hog - and it's also been tied to numerous virus attacks due to it's numerous exploits. It's not something you would want tied to your OS. Remember Apple rushed a patch out, because you could jailbreak your iphone simply by visiting a website and using an Adobe .pdf exploit to break into the OS?

You could opt to make a hardware chip that would decode any one of these, but that chip would be LIMITED to ONLY do a few of those, and only under certain conditions (resolution, frame-rate, MIP size, ect.). Apple chose to use the .mp4 and H.264 format.

There is nothing 'Fanboi' about recognizing a superior approach. If as a 'professional' you do not grasp this concept, perhaps you ought to choose another profession.

If you were a competent professional, you would know about Page Files, Virtual Memory, Memory Paging and Virtual Memory. Windows 95, 98, 2000, XP, Vista, Win7, WinCE and yes - even Win7 Mobile all use this concept to address memory spaces that are not physically present. This causes what a simpleton (who knows the industry) calls "Memory Thrash". Simply stated, for your education - real memory is 'thrashed' with numerous R/W operations to sustain the virutal memory. This is done within relatively small memory 'Page'. Every R/W operation consumes power. A 'Good' mobile OS uses as few of these as possible. There is a reason MSFT has failed with WinCE, and is failing again with Win7 Mobile. Delivering a feature-poor mobile OS, over a year late, followed by delivering the SDK 6 months later - didn't help.

These are all facts, no bragging, no arrogance - these are solid, quantifiable facts. What if MSFT does something else is 'magical thinking'. Do you have any evidence that MSFT has changed the strategy they have used for the past 20 years? Did you know that there were hordes of tablets scheduled to come out with Win7 Home running on an Atom processor? Did you know that every single one of them saw that the product had no legs - and they cancelled the programs entirely? Did you know that the HP Slate was supposed to be released over a year ago? Did you know that HP bought Palm because they realized that MSFT didn't have a clue as to what to put into a mobile OS? Guesss these folks are all arrogant too, huh?

16 posted on 02/25/2011 7:01:12 AM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar

Hey, look, dude, you’re still arguing with a very arrogant attitude, and an “I know more than you because I’m an IT professional” reference point.

No matter how you might want to put it or spin it, what you have, as far as the Window 8 smartphone market is concerned, is mostly, guesswork, and a lot of fanboi type rhetoric.

Like I said, unless you are privy to the Windows 8 specs for the Windows smartphone and the Windows tablets, then, all you have is guesswork, and your IT experience isn’t going to change that.

You can throw out all the latest buzzwords you like regarding current or expected technology, but, in the end, you don’t know any more than anyone else about what Windows 8 will have as features or what it will be designed to support. Did you know that Microsoft has already stated that they’ll support the ARM processors, and thereby the smartphones and tablets which use those chips?

And then, you try to label me by calling me a “libtard” while pretending to be offended by me calling you a fanboi? Look, when somebody acts or reacts like you do when being challenged, and you retort with your supposedly superior knowledge in the IT field, then you’re just demonstrating huge arrogance. Your credibility in regards to what’s coming in the future is not necessarily enhanced by pointing to your supposedly superior talent in the IT field. Like I said, I’m in the field myself, but I don’t go around throwing that fact around in order to try to win an argument. I’m not in the hardware field, but being in the software arena, I have to understand the capabilities of the hardware which I might have to develop for, therefore, I need to prepare for whatever is coming down the pike.

Most of what you posted regarding Windows 8 is the same type of “hoping for failure” that I read so often by the detractors of anything Microsoft. And like I said, it would be wrong to have that kind of attitude if it concerned Apple or Google or IBM or any other IT company.

The argument you made, is about what Flash is about and how CPU intensive the software is, and it’s irrelevant. With the multi-core CPUs coming into existence, it may not matter much to the consumer who is not as “IT literate” as you or me. But, either way, do you know for a fact that what Microsoft has in mind is just “Flash” support, or will there be more options to come?

BTW: “libtard”? Does that sound professional to you? And then you’re going to accuse me of sounding like just a grammatically correct “high school” graduate?

The fact is that, I may be a lot more conservative than you when it comes to politics and government and issues. Are you accustomed to making conclusions about the political leanings of a person based on his/her statements/knowledge regarding IT? That would be a pretty idiotic method for critical analysis.

I think your problem is more about not taking too kindly to someone challenging your position and your uppity stance on the issue of Windows 8.

However, I would still like to know what knowledge you are privileged to know regarding Windows 8 that hasn’t been disclosed to the rest of the world.

Also, having been in the industry for, no doubt, longer than you, I do know about “Page Files, Virtual Memory, Memory Paging and Virtual Memory”, because, coming from the mainframe world, and from the massively parallel computing platforms (such as Tandem computers) I had to know how to be very savvy and conservative about memory use. Nowadays, with RAM and drive memory being so cheap, people don’t have the same worries as the “mainframers” of the past. But, like I already said, that’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and you don’t need to try to continue pointing out how your arguments carry more weight because of the “superior” knowledge you have in the industry. You may not be able to recognize it as arrogance, but it is.

Now, again, how does my take on this particular issue make me a “libtard”? You, yourself, sound like the typical libtard, who, when he’s not able to subdue an opponent with his side of the argument, will resort to insults or screaming.

Now, ask me about the project which I’m working on to try to get true “fair and balanced” news and information out to the world. (BTW, “fair and balanced” doesn’t mean conservative only or republican, or liberal; it means allowing all news and information and viewpoints). It’s a client/server application which will need a huge database and a huge amount of hardware, with the potential of many millions of daily users, and the potential to draw a large amount of traffic away from Google and Yahoo and Microsoft and all the major news organizations, while generating it’s own traffic. Now, remember, I said “potential”, and that’s because, my system isn’t out there yet. (Yeah, I know, this last paragraph is kind of tangential, but, I would need all kinds of gadgets to be able to connect to my system, including Windows 8 tablets and smartphones, and those based on iOS and Android, and the major OSes, and for all of that, I don’t care who wins the battle of the OSes or the hardware).

Oh, one last thing:

In order to get a message out, one doesn’t need much more than a high-school education in communications skills. When things are kept simple, you tend to reach more people. There’s no need to over-complicate matters. Logic and common sense don’t require that someone be a communications major. ;)


17 posted on 02/25/2011 8:54:41 AM PST by adorno
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To: adorno
Lots of hot air ....

Any facts to back up your bloat? Anything?

I carefully explained that EVERY cycle burns power. I explained Memory Thrash to the level that even you comprehend it, no; scratch that. You went on to prove that you don't.

All you have done, is attack the messenger - on some presumed 'arrogance' that you are projecting.

I never said I was in the IT field - that's YOU projecting. I'm an engineer - I'm a lead on one of the teams that designs what makes these devices work.

But, what would I know .... obviously you know better ... so, please present some facts. Share what you know, it should take maybe an entire paragraph.

The argument you made, is about what Flash is about and how CPU intensive the software is, and it’s irrelevant. With the multi-core CPUs coming into existence, it may not matter much to the consumer who is not as “IT literate” as you or me.

God, I hope you are an intern. If not, take your diploma back to your college and demand your money back. Every cycle burns power - and a quad-core burns MORE energy per clock cycle than single core. Transistors burn energy - it's what they do. The whole point of making an ASIC (look it up) is to reduce power consumption. Apple uses the ARM processor, coupled with PowerVR graphics to build a custom ASIC. Now, why in the world would they do a thing like that? Hint: 10+ hrs batter life on a charge.

I tire of trying to teach an ignoramous who refuses to learn. Educate yourself, learn some facts and when you know SOMETHING, let me know.

I took the time to point out the S-I-N features, because you are using those tactics - and like a Libtard, you respond using those tactics. Present some facts, some rationale - Don't attack me, defend your statements (there's a difference - hint: facts are involved).

18 posted on 02/25/2011 9:46:11 AM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: SeekAndFind
it invented the genre back in 2002

Hahaha, that's a good one. A $17,000 coffee table is a tablet?

19 posted on 02/25/2011 9:51:16 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Hodar
Golly gee, guy, get over yourself already!

So, where did I get the idea that you were in the IT field? Well, the discussion concerned Windows 8 and by extension, tablets and a few things "Microsoft", and then, you went and wrote the following in one of your posts:

Golly, maybe because I work in the industry? Maybe because I know what Windows does, how it behaves, how it uses resources.

Without being specific, how was anyone to know that you meant the "engineering" side of things and not as in "software engineering"? So, why not try to be a better communicator next time?

Lots of hot air ....

Any facts to back up your bloat? Anything?


So, what the heck are you talking about? Hot air? Where? Bloat? Where? You need to clarify your statements and questions, otherwise, you're going to be popping a vein or two with your argumentative rhetoric. Take a couple of chill pills and see the doctor in the morning.

I carefully explained that EVERY cycle burns power. I explained Memory Thrash to the level that even you comprehend it, no; scratch that. You went on to prove that you don't.

Like president Reagan famously said: "There you go again!".

Look, you're seeing demons where there aren't any.

Why are you so defensive and rude? There is no need for that, so, simmer down.

I never argued against your assertions about Flash and about CPU cycles burning or not burning power. It's only logical that that is the case. So, why are you arguing about a non-issue?

I also remember explaining to you that I'm not a hardware person, but, that I still needed to understand some of the technology in order to be able to develop and take advantage of how it works. That's not so difficult to understand, is it?

All you have done, is attack the messenger - on some presumed 'arrogance' that you are projecting.

Being called arrogant should not be something that comes as a surprise to you. I'm pretty sure that with your attitude, it's come up more than once in your life.

I never said I was in the IT field - that's YOU projecting. I'm an engineer - I'm a lead on one of the teams that designs what makes these devices work.

Well, making that statement I quoted in the beginning of this response, would lead someone to believe that you were/are in the IT field. Be clear next time. It's the right thing to do with your "college" communications skills.

But, why even indicate that you're on a team that helps design what makes those gadgets work, if you're not trying to gain some sort of advantage in the discussion?

So what part of what you've said so far, demonstrates that you have exclusive knowledge about how Windows 8 will operate and what features it's going to contain? Do you know for a fact that it's going to do contain Flash? If not, which other media software will it have? If you don't know, then you're arguing just for arguments sake with no real information to back up your assertions.

Just to clear it up for you again, I'm not arguing against your credentials or your experience; I'm arguing about what you really know about the issue at hand, that being Windows 8's features and software capabilities.

But, what would I know ....

That's the question I keep asking you, and you can't seem to come up with the answers regarding what you know about Windows 8 features and software.

obviously you know better ...so, please present some facts. Share what you know, it should take maybe an entire paragraph.

B.... S......

I never claimed to know better than you or anyone else about what Windows 8 will be like. I don't know any better than the next guy, and all that I can do is to speculate as much as the next guy, including you. The only thing I did was to challenge you on the information you had about Windows 8.

And, haven't you noticed that you haven't made any more sense than I have, and the size of a paragraph, or a number of paragraphs, isn't going to change the huge lack of facts in your posts? Arguing about how ARM or CPUs or memory chew up energy is not what this discussion was about.

God, I hope you are an intern.

Nope, not an intern. And, it's interesting how you like to throw out your backhanded type of insults while not liking it when somebody retaliates in kind towards you.

I'm an architect and an idea person, on the application side of things. I doubt that you could even come close to the types of things that I've been involved with in my career.

If I can get my project/application going, I'm going to need the same kind of idea and application architect person that I've been. I would even hire someone as disagreeable as you seem to be, as long as he can get the job done, and I wouldn't hold the argumentative spirit against you. I know how to overlook some negatives to achieve a bigger purpose.

If not, take your diploma back to your college and demand your money back.

Sounds like you're a beginner in life. Look, the biggest lessons in life are learned in the real world, and that includes most of what one needs to know in their professions. Most of what I know didn't come from some classroom. You seem to be still stuck in a college environment mindset.

Every cycle burns power - and a quad-core burns MORE energy per clock cycle than single core. Transistors burn energy - it's what they do. The whole point of making an ASIC (look it up) is to reduce power consumption. Apple uses the ARM processor, coupled with PowerVR graphics to build a custom ASIC. Now, why in the world would they do a thing like that? Hint: 10+ hrs batter life on a charge.

I keep telling you that the direction of your argument is irrelevant to the original discussion. As a developer and a software/application architect, the only thing I care about is how to take advantage of the features in the hardware and software in order to create a great user experience. If a gadget or computer cannot make it past the discerning hands-on experience from technical reviewers and perhaps some beta testers, then chances are that, that gadget or computer won't be made available to the masses until the problems are corrected. I might read about the shortcomings of a smartphone or a tablet or a computer, but, chances are that I won't be having to make my application compatible with what's not going to reach the market. So, basically, to me, the argument is a moot one for me on the hardware or engineering side. But, when it comes to Windows 8, and the commitment that Microsoft has made towards its creation and the supported feature-set, I would have to take that platform into consideration. That is why it would be "interesting" to know what it is that you know regarding Windows 8. So, again, what is it that you know?

I tire of trying to teach an ignoramous who refuses to learn. Educate yourself, learn some facts and when you know SOMETHING, let me know.

Would you mind if I called you an idiot?

You obviously like to launch insults at others, so, I'm pretty sure you won't mind me retaliating by calling you an idiot.

Like I said, it's the last resort of someone who is losing an argument and can't think of any other way than to insult and yell.

Let me reiterate. I'm not an engineer in the hardware side, but I do software engineering in the application side of things. And, like I mentioned in my prior post, I worked with the larger computers, including the mainframes and the massively parallel platforms for huge transaction processing applications. In that area, I'm pretty sure that I'm a lot more experienced than you.

I took the time to point out the S-I-N features, because you are using those tactics - and like a Libtard, you respond using those tactics.

You are so dense that you can't even recognize that the "SIN" features are more aptly applicable to your type of argumentative tactics.

Present some facts, some rationale -

I kept asking you, over and over again, to present your facts regarding the topic of the discussion, and you've failed over and over again. As such, you are the one without the facts and the rational arguments.

Tell you what...

Once you present your "real" facts regarding what features Windows 8 will contain, and how those features are going "fail" the platform, then I'll concede the argument to you. But, it better contain the real facts and what will actually be within the feature-set of Windows 8. Comprende?

Don't attack me, defend your statements (there's a difference - hint: facts are involved).

I'm not the one that made "your" allegations about how Windows 8 will fail because of the technology within it. As such, the burden is on your side to present your set of facts and then to match them with your inside knowledge about what Microsoft has divulged to you. Is that too hard to comprehend? Should I have to make it clearer for you.

Hasta la vista.
20 posted on 02/25/2011 6:07:05 PM PST by adorno
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To: adorno

Please list the MSFT success stories in the mobile market.

I’ll get you started....Zune, WinCE,

Please go on and tell me how well they have done. How’s Win7 Mobile doing? Billions to Nokia - buying marketshare ... and how many phones are flying off the shelves?

How about the rousing success stories in the Tablet market that hit the press about 6 months after the iPad? HP Slate was supposed to set the standard. Remind me what happened to that again? And how about the other’s? Oh yeah, every single product line that was supposed to run Win 7 Home on an Atom processor was canceled - across every single vendor.

I suggest you pay a little bit more attention to the Industry - because you seem amazingly short on fact, and long on wind.

Can you name 1, just 1 MSFT success story in the mobile market? Just 1.

MSFT does a fantastic job when they have infinite power. Laptops and Desktops run reliably, across numerous vendors, on various chipsets, with different processors, and soon to include the folks like ARM.

But, in every mobile attempt they have made - they have failed. And Tablets was a fail of epic proportions. Did you read any of the reviews of the MSFT tablets before they were terminated?

And I’m the idiot? Geez, coming from you that means less than what it does from a bum on the street.

Do grow up.


21 posted on 02/26/2011 6:29:27 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar
You're asking me to grow up, and you're acting like the typical "I hate all things Microsoft" detractor.

Please list the MSFT success stories in the mobile market.

Even with my posts recorded for your review, as many times as you like, you still have a very short attention span. Go back and review. You'll notice that my approach to the subject at hand has nothing to do with defending Microsoft in any of the areas in which they operate. They are a successful company, in many areas, and so is Apple and Google and IBM.

However, when it comes to the smartphone market, Microsoft was indeed there with its Windows Mobile before Apple, and before Google, and as such, they were a "success" in that arena before those other two companies. But, again, that's neither here nor there when it comes the matter at hand. So, why are you going into tangential discussions. Is it because you don't have an answer to the questions I posed?

I’ll get you started....Zune, WinCE,

Yet, when it comes to opinion, many people think of the Zune as a better product than Apple's iPod. Sometimes, being first in market matters, but, success is sometimes not dictated by being "better". It's like the IBM of the old days, when, they were perceived as better because they were bigger or established. But, there were a lot of other products on the market, mainframes and minis that were a lot better than what IBM put out. When it comes to the WinCE, well, again, Microsoft was there before Apple and before Google, the current bigger players. But, being big in a sector, again, doesn't mean being better. Apple and Android are the "standard" right now, but, the WP7, according to many, is a superior product, even with it's current shortcomings, and with the improvements to come, it could ultimately be the better product, not only in features, but in the general appeal to the consumer. Remember that, when it came to the PC world, Apple had a huge head-start against all other PC manufacturers when it came to the graphical user interface, and it was many years before Microsoft took the lead to where it now has around 90% of the PC market for OSes. It's too early for anyone to name a winner in the mobile marketplace, and it's going to be a long time before the dust settles in the mobile market, perhaps another 4 or 5 years. Come back in a few years and we'll talk then.

Please go on and tell me how well they have done. How’s Win7 Mobile doing? Billions to Nokia - buying marketshare ... and how many phones are flying off the shelves?

Not too bright, are you?

Look, Nokia wasn't going to jump on the WM7 bandwagon if the product wasn't convincing enough to them, and they're weren't going to sacrifice their entire product line on just a measly $2 billion dollars which can disappear fairly quickly on expenses alone. Didn't you notice that, Google was also trying to woo Nokia with Android, a more "established" offering? And I'm pretty sure that Google could've offered as much or more for Nokia to go along with Android. Let's face it, Microsoft is a very big and established name in just about everything software and computer technology. It's a giant to be reckoned with, and even Apple can't compete with what Microsoft has to offer as far as number of products and services and market reach. Most times, reality matters more than hype.

Also, one thing that you're apparently very late to recognize is that, in order to become "competitive", one often has to buy the competition or bribe the competition or join the competition. That's a business practice as old as, well, the invention of business. You and I may not like it, but, if it's allowed and doesn't lead to a monopoly, it's going to continue to happen.

How about the rousing success stories in the Tablet market that hit the press about 6 months after the iPad? HP Slate was supposed to set the standard. Remind me what happened to that again? And how about the other’s? Oh yeah, every single product line that was supposed to run Win 7 Home on an Atom processor was canceled - across every single vendor.

You're still off in a huge tangent in this discussion.

However, when it comes to those "Windows" tablets, well they are better, even if not as low in weight, and not as thin, and the battery life might not be as good as the iPad, and perhaps not as low price as the lower end iPad. But, feature-wise and capabilities-wise, those Windows tablets are a lot better than any version of the iPad. Sure, people aren't going to plunk down $800 or $1000 for a Windows-based tablet, but, those tablets are real PCs, with fully capable OSes, in a small package, as opposed to the iPad which is not much more than a screen where you can watch movies and surf the net.

However, you're not keeping up with the times.

Have you heard of the Fujitsu Stylistic Q550 Windows 7 tablet?

The STYLISTIC Q550 runs on Microsoft Windows® 7 and is compatible with Windows®' multi-touch capabilities. Users can control applications and input text by touching the screen simply with just a touch of their fingers or by the attached stylus.

The STYLISTIC Q550 is equipped with a next-generation Intel® ATOM™ CPU that is highly-compatible with Microsoft Windows® 7 operating system, energy efficient, and features superior performance. By making full use of Fujitsu's proprietary power supply control functionality, the new series provides effortless operations using a large-capacity battery that can power the slate PC's 10.1 inch screen while still lasting approximately 10 hours(2). Furthermore in terms of maintenance, the battery is removable. The overall unit weighs only 690g when a standard battery is inserted(3).

The STYLISTIC Q550 employs an ergonomic design, with a surface texture and weight balance that make it fit naturally in the user's hand.


And, from what I've heard, it's in the weight range of the iPad, which is around 1 1/2 lbs.

http://www.fujitsu.com/global/news/pr/archives/month/2011/20110224-01.html

So, ounce for ounce, the Fujitsu tablet is a heck of a lot more useful than the iPad, and when compared to the high-end iPad, the price is very comparable. Feature-wise and OS-wise, and usage-wise, the Windows capable Fujitsu tablet is a heck of a lot more than the simple media consumption device that is the iPad, or even the new Android based tablets coming out.

I suggest you pay a little bit more attention to the Industry - because you seem amazingly short on fact, and long on wind.

I would propose that it's you that is being left behind the times, and that it is you that is woefully out of touch with the industry. It's your "facts" that are lacking when it comes to what's happening in the industry.

Can you name 1, just 1 MSFT success story in the mobile market? Just 1.

So, is that how you arrive at your conclusion that, Microsoft tablets and smartphones aren't going to be successful in the future? Logic is not one of your strong attributes.

Look, Microsoft was relatively successful in the smartphone arena before Apple or Google even thought of entering that market. And, WM7 is relatively new, and the market for "smart" phones is still relatively new. The penetration of those smart mobile devices is not even close to what the PC market is now. So, there is still room for a lot of growth, for everybody, including Microsoft. I'm pretty sure that both Apple and Google are not going to be as dismissive about WM7 or Windows tablets as you appear to be.

MSFT does a fantastic job when they have infinite power. Laptops and Desktops run reliably, across numerous vendors, on various chipsets, with different processors, and soon to include the folks like ARM.

And, with Microsoft developing their OSes to be able to run on just about any CPU and on just about any "small-sized" platform, the future in all areas of computing might be still "owned" by Microsoft. I'm not particularly crazy about one vendor "owning" all the different computing platforms, but, being the giant that Microsoft is, it could become reality. Think about the race between the hare and turtle. Sometimes being the fastest or first out of the gate doesn't guarantee you the long-term success.

But, in every mobile attempt they have made - they have failed. And Tablets was a fail of epic proportions. Did you read any of the reviews of the MSFT tablets before they were terminated?

There is a big difference between the past and the present reality.

Microsoft became comfortable with what they had because, the mobile markets weren't as profitable and competitive as they are now. It's a different reality now, and Microsoft, and all other players, have realized that, they need to be in the "new" mobile marketplace, or they will perish or be rendered as just "an also ran". Microsoft cannot concede the tablet or smartphone arena to the competition, and the competition is aware that they awoke a giant which was just getting along with their PC and enterprise success. The market is way different and Microsoft has started answering the challenge. Don't you believe that Apple and Google are beginning to take notice about how Microsoft has become aggressive in that new marketplace, as opposed to their last 10 years or so of complacency?

It if sounds like I'm defending Microsoft, you would be wrong. I'm just noting the facts on the ground, and it's not like you would want to spin them. Like I said in a prior post, I don't have a horse in the race, and I wish them all success, because, for what I do, I don't care who wins or loses, as long as they all do it right. I don't approach a vendor via favoritism or dislike, like you seem to be doing. Just let the marketplace work, and hopefully, everybody reaps the rewards that come from competition.

And I’m the idiot? Geez, coming from you that means less than what it does from a bum on the street.

That statement right there could easily define you as an idiot.

You're assuming that, because somebody is a "bum" and currently out of luck, that that person is incapable of "intelligent" thought. Your way of thinking is pretty dumb and very judgmental and very lacking in common sense or logic.

Do grow up.

It should be quite apparent by now, that, from everything you've posted so far, that the only one that needs "growing up" in this discussion is you. It's either that, or you need to get out of your cave, or you need to do your own thinking instead of just trumpeting what you hear or read in blogs, technology or otherwise.

And, hey, nice try to deflect from the points of the current discussion and from the questions I keep posing to you.

So, again, I ask you...

What is it that you are privy to from Microsoft that would make you conclude that, whatever they do with Windows 8 will be a failure? If you don't know, admit it, and don't turn the subject matter of this discussion into "me" vs "you".

Stay on topic and you'll end up doing better. Changing the topic is a well-known tactic by those whose arguments don't mesh with the facts.
22 posted on 02/27/2011 8:54:12 AM PST by adorno
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To: adorno

My statement has been quite consistent.

MSFT apparently has little idea how to make a mobile system OS. It has nothing to do with hating MSFT - again you are projecting. It’s a statement of fact. MSFT has been wildly successful in the desktop ranks, and the laptop rank had little choice but to follow suit. If you want to run completely compatible systems - it only makes sense to run the same OS on a laptop as you do the desktop. This makes sense from the IT perspective, as well as logicistical.

Consider, Apple with Intel processors and the curent i5/i7 chipsets are boasting 10 hours of useable life on their laptops. Same hardware running on Windows gets how many hours? 2 on a NEW machine? Less on a 1 yr old machine.

Same hardware, smaller footprint - and about 500% better battery life. Must be a coincidence, huh?

Fujitsu has sold what? A couple hundred tablets? Folio had a really unique approach to this - they increased the marketshare HIGHER than the iPad so they wouldn’t have to compete.

Now let’s apply some common sense here. NO R&D effort for OS required. Use Netbook design reference, some driver tweaks - and they still can’t come cloe to Apple.

But - you just KNOW they will.

Here’s why I think MSFT is doomed. They drank the managment Kool-Aide that tech companies do consistently - just before they die. What made MSFT the king? Geeks, plain and simple. Bill Gates was a Geek, and his staff were all geeks - and they conquerored the world. Now, the Geeks in managment have been replaced by Biztards. People who have NO fundamental understanding of the technology they weild actually works. These Biztard look at numbers (what few they actually understand) and then apply their limited intellect to run a company - and run it into the Ground - every ... single .... time.

Carly Fiona was a biztard - almost killed HP. Scully was a Biztard who fired Steve Jobs and nearly killed Apple. MSFT is filled with Biztards. Vista was an unmitigated disaster, Win7, while an improvement - is still not a great incentive to leave WinXP.

Heck, the “Funeral” MSFT had when they launched Win7 mobile was an embarassment to engineers world-wide. I hung my head in shame, and sympathy out of the self-imposed humilation that MSFT made with a processon of people walking through Redmond with floats representing Blackberry, Android and Apple - this on their launch date.

Was this the act of a logical, rational mind? Or the childish mind of a Biztard who has no grasp of what he has, or what the competition has?

So, you care to compare these Windows offering against anyone? Anyone? Features, weight, battery life, App support? Have you ever tried the Fujitsu’s? If you had - you’d not have brought them up.

Here’s a clue for the clueless. Win7 has a file size of around 6 GB, and then another 2 GB for page file. Now let’s compare contrast. Android is small, as is Apple - we are talking well under 1 GB. So, with a 1 GHz procossor motoring about - what does it move through more responsively? An OS in the 360-600 MB range, or 6 GB of OS?

There is a reason hardly anyone buys a Windows tablet, and a reason why everyone avoids them.

According to the review:
http://www.ruggedpcreview.com/3_slates_fujitsu_stylistic_q550.html

According to the review - we have less than a 3 hour battery life, and a starting price of $800. Meanwhile, the iPad 2 is coming out in a matter of months - so we’ll see what that sports, and at what price.

Look for product cancellation announcements in a month or two.

So, in the year+ since Apple delivered the iPad - MSFT has not responded to the tablet market at all. Fujitsu is making essentially a netbook with a touchscreen (same approach as the HP Slate from 6 months ago). Who knows, maybe Fujitsu will succeed where Folio, HP, Levino and others have failed. Maybe monkeys will come flying out my backside.

Meanwhile, we have 15 Million+ iPads on the market, 500K apps in the store, and the second generation iPad launch immenent. And again, what has MSFT done?

Nothing. MSFT is no longer managed by Geeks; they are in their death spiral - managed by Business managers. Meanwhile, who manages Apple? Do they have any technical background? Hmmmm, wonder if there is something there?

Regarding attention span ... I have nothing but positive things to say about Apple, Google and RIM. Each understands that the Mobile Market brings with it certain key requirements (not features ... requirements). My beef has been solely with MSFT for failing, over and over.

“many people think of the Zune as a better product than Apple’s iPod”

You are aware that MSFT cancelled the Zune - because ‘many people’ didn’t buy one.

“When it comes to the WinCE, well, again, Microsoft was there before Apple and before Google, the current bigger players”

Yes, WinCE was the first attempt my MSFT in the mobile marketplace. And it flopped. What lessons were learned, as to ‘why’ it flopped; why Symbian took dominance? Apprarently nothing was learned.

Win7 Mobile was delivered a YEAR later than promised, with features that the competition already - noticeably missing. Late to market, and the SDK followed another 6 months later yet.

How many Win7 mobile phones have sold? No one is saying - sure, they announce that they built 2 Million a few months ago - but they have only sold a couple thousand. Lots and lots of them in warehouses. No one wants one.

“Also, one thing that you’re apparently very late to recognize is that, in order to become “competitive”, one often has to buy the competition or bribe the competition or join the competition”

Really? How astute... You mean like France? If you can’t win a war - surrender or go in league with the ‘competition’? And how successful have these companies been? Can you name a few?

“However, when it comes to those “Windows” tablets, well they are better, even if not as low in weight, and not as thin, and the battery life might not be as good as the iPad, and perhaps not as low price as the lower end iPad. But, feature-wise and capabilities-wise, those Windows tablets are a lot better than any version of the iPad.”

Ok aside from having 1 year to copy a competitor, they weigh more, have shorter battery life, are more expensive - and are BETTER than the iPad? You do know that Apple isn’t standing still, don’t you? How do you define ‘better’?

We are talking Mobility - weight, battery life and cost are critical.

Apparently you don’t know the difference even at the most fundamental level what a tablet market is for, do you? You don’t have a freakin’ clue. Good God, you took several steps back.

A garden tractor and a motorbike are two very different tools. There is no comparison, one is for productivity, the other for leisure.

While I can do Word/Powerpoint/Excel on an iPad - the experience sucks. The virtual keyboard constrains me to a very small window of operation. So, while I can do productity on the iPad - it’s a miserable experience. The laptop wins.

When it comes to leisure, the laptop can play movies, it can play music, allow me to surf the web, and read books - but with a high weight, low battery life, unweildly size - the experience is miserable. Especially for a person who spends times on planes, buses, or reading in bed.

You want to debate MSFT Tablet strategy - and you obvsiously don’t have a clue what market the tablet is designed for? And you think I’m stupid. You don’t have a clue what you are talking about?

Why would a tablet need a compass? Accelerometers? Why an IPS screen? You don’t have a clue do you?

Why are these NOT present in Laptops? No eartly idea do you?

You obviuously don’t know what you are babbling about.


23 posted on 02/27/2011 2:36:16 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: SeekAndFind

Scrambling to catch up? Given MS’ stellar track record with bugs on versions they take their time with, I would wait for Win 9.

By then Apple will probably be shipping iOS 8 running on an iPad 6.


24 posted on 02/27/2011 2:45:47 PM PST by AFreeBird
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To: Hodar
My statement has been quite consistent.

Yep! As consistent as the weather in summer in Florida. (Bet you don't know what that means).

MSFT apparently has little idea how to make a mobile system OS.

Yet, they already did it once before, and before Apple or Google, with the Windows Mobile OS. Bet you didn't know that Windows Mobile ever existed, because, you're too clueless to know the facts.

So, if MS doesn't know how to make a mobile OS, what do you call WM7? I'll bet you haven't even tried it yet, and the only reason you're knocking it and hoping it fails is because, you're just the typical fanboi who has already made his choice of smartphones and likes to defend his choice and wants to brag about how great his decision was. Such nonsense!

It has nothing to do with hating MSFT - again you are projecting.

Yes it does. It's mostly about your hate or deep dislike for anything Microsoft. I've met and heard too many people just like you who express the same kind of nonsense in very similar wording.

It’s a statement of fact.

Those things you mentioned are not facts. They're just wishful thinking hoping for failure on the part of Microsoft.

MSFT has been wildly successful in the desktop ranks, and the laptop rank had little choice but to follow suit.

For your information, Microsoft does NOT make desktops nor laptops nor anything resembling PCs, except perhaps the Xbox, and that's just a gaming computer.

For a very long time, the OSes have been compatible across laptops and desktops, but, Microsoft does not make the hardware. As a supposed engineer, you should have known that.

If you want to run completely compatible systems - it only makes sense to run the same OS on a laptop as you do the desktop. This makes sense from the IT perspective, as well as logicistical.

That's mostly a very irrelevant point, as most of anyone that's ever worked with any kind of Windows (compatible) PC can attest to the fact that, Windows (whatever version) has been able to run on laptops and desktops and netbooks and even some tablets.

Consider, Apple with Intel processors and the curent i5/i7 chipsets are boasting 10 hours of useable life on their laptops. Same hardware running on Windows gets how many hours? 2 on a NEW machine? Less on a 1 yr old machine.

Again, another irrelevant point.

But, currently, there are many manufacturers, besides Apple, who are testing their i5 and i7 based PCs to be able to run for up to 30 hours and even 32 hours on a series of new, longer lasting batteries. But, did you notice how, just like any other fanboi, you just had to state that Apple is ahead of the game, when, actually, they're not. And, again, that's got nothing to do with Apple's OS or Microsoft's OS. With those new batteries, any major OS, Windows 7/9 or any OS from Apple, will be able to run for very long periods of time before needing recharging. So, the advantage currently enjoyed by the mobile platforms will virtually dispappear when the new batteries can match or ever supercede the mobile batteries of today.

Same hardware, smaller footprint - and about 500% better battery life. Must be a coincidence, huh?

Still, a non-point.

Advantage... everybody in the PC marketplace, both the manufacturers and the consumer.

And, actually, you sound like you're behing the times when it comes to the technology and battery life marriage. Get with the times.

Fujitsu has sold what?

It's virtually a new product, so, the sales are going to be unknown for a while. So, why are you kncking Fujitsu too? Is it that perhaps your too commited to your tech company of preference, Apple?

However, when it comes to Fujitsu, they've been known in the table market for a while, and while they haven't been for everybody, they've sold quite a lot of their prior tablet products. Now, that the form factor is more popular, with the iPad leading the way, some of the more powerful tablets will become more reachable and attractive for the regular tablet consumer, especially when the Fujitsu tablet is very competitive with the iPad in price and form factor, while offering a lot more capabilities.

A couple hundred tablets?

You're making things up. The new tablet has just been announced and the sales figures won't be indicative of the true potential until several months have passed. It's like asking about how many new i8 processors have been sold before it's even out in the marketplace. Try being a bit more realistic before making your attempts at misinformation.

Folio had a really unique approach to this - they increased the marketshare HIGHER than the iPad so they wouldn’t have to compete.

What the heck does that mean?

Look, when it comes to competition, everybody wants to make their products reachable and practical to all clients, and clients include businesses and the regular consumers. If a form factor can be sold to everybody in the universe, and it's practical at the same time, why put anything out of the reach of any segment?

Now let’s apply some common sense here. NO R&D effort for OS required. Use Netbook design reference, some driver tweaks - and they still can’t come cloe to Apple.

There you go again! Typical Apple fanboi.

Does your life revolve around Apple?

Apple did good with "redefining" the tablet market, and the smartphone market. But, they're not significantly better than other manufacturers in what they do. What Apple does do better is marketing and hyping anything they produce. If you wan't to call marketing and hype "innovations", then go ahead. But, technology-wise, there's virtually no difference.

But - you just KNOW they will.

Whatever advantage Apple had with the iPad and iPhone are beginning to disappear, no matter the hype of the marketing prowess of the company. People do have a lot more options, and they're being smarter about their choices.

Here’s why I think MSFT is doomed.

Yep! The same exact language as the typical fanboid who thinks "ABM", anything but microsoft. Wishing and hoping for a result is not how the world works. Reality has to enter into your thinking and decision-making sometime. Get with reality, won't you?

They drank the managment Kool-Aide that tech companies do consistently - just before they die.

That sounds so dumb that it's not even worth a comment. But, people have been hoping for Microsoft's failure and death for 15 to 20 years, and they're still standing, with more products, and more customers and more profits than ever.

But, dude... the "management Kool-Aide"? Did you just get out of middle-school?

What made MSFT the king? Geeks, plain and simple. Bill Gates was a Geek, and his staff were all geeks - and they conquerored the world.

Geeks are mostly good at developing cool technological gadgets and the software to support them. But, most "geeks" are clueless when it comes to "business", and no product is ever going to get off the ground without the business-savvy that people with management skills possess. Even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, realized that, and that's why they sought out the help of those that knew how to do marketing and run a business.

Now, the Geeks in managment have been replaced by Biztards.

"Biztards"? Are you for real? Don't you know how to communicae like an adult? Is everyone that doesn't agree with you or that you dislike, some sort of "...tard"?

People who have NO fundamental understanding of the technology they weild actually works.

Sounds to me like the one with the fundamental understanding is YOU.

Look, a lot of those innovations would never have gotten off the ground if it weren't for the people with the business and managament skills to bring those products to market. You're still living in a cocoon of the geeks who don't understand how the rest of the world works. These Biztard look at numbers (what few they actually understand) and then apply their limited intellect to run a company - and run it into the Ground - every ... single .... time.

You are one of the most clueless people I've ever encountered, on the internet or in person. It's a wonder that you're even allowed to be a member of FR with that kind of nonsensical attitude and lack of common sense.

Carly Fiona was a biztard - almost killed HP. Scully was a Biztard who fired Steve Jobs and nearly killed Apple. MSFT is filled with Biztards. Vista was an unmitigated disaster, Win7, while an improvement - is still not a great incentive to leave WinXP.

You are a "biztard" and a "geektard" and a "knownothingtard". You name it and you are that "...tard". Did I cover all the bases? I would call you a "libtard", but, we've been down that road before. Anyhow, how old are you again?

Heck, the “Funeral” MSFT had when they launched Win7 mobile was an embarassment to engineers world-wide.

You're about the only one in the world who keeps dwelling on that event. The rest of the world has moved on. But, you keep bringing up the ridiculous to try to make a point, even though you don't really have one.


I hung my head in shame,

As well you should, with all the ranting and raving and clueless remarks you keep making here. Even I am ashamed for what a fellow "Freeper" has been posting here in this discussion. You have no idea about how the marketplace operates, and because of that, you should be posting at "DU" and "DailyKos" and the "HuffPo". You don't belong at FR. Sure, there are people right here on FR who dislike Microsoft, and prefer Apple or Google for some products, but I don't believe they take their "dislike" of Microsoft to the extreme that you do, and I'm pretty sure that they don't look at businesspeople in the tech world as "biztards".

and sympathy out of the self-imposed humilation that MSFT made with a processon of people walking through Redmond with floats representing Blackberry, Android and Apple - this on their launch date.

I wonder. Were those people "forced" to do what they did, and weren't some or many of them in agreement with the episode, and perhaps many of them enjoying themselves while doing it? Again, you sound like the typical Apple and Google fanboi who didn't like his preferred company getting insulted.

I read about that Microsoft event, and I gave it a passing glance and moved on with my life. Why do you need to dwell on the insignificant?

Was this the act of a logical, rational mind?

You're like the typical 6 year-old in a playground who can't be laughed at and will hold a grudge. Get a life already!

Or the childish mind of a Biztard who has no grasp of what he has, or what the competition has?

That statement is so stupid on so many levels. First off, "biztard" again. You need to learn to communicate in adult terms. You can't expect respectability or credibility when you use grade school language in expressing yourself.

Secondly, the "biztards" at Microsoft have been doing quite well, even with the detractors such as you who will insult Microsoft just for even thinking of going against your inviolable Apple or Google.

So, you care to compare these Windows offering against anyone? Anyone? Features, weight, battery life, App support? Have you ever tried the Fujitsu’s? If you had - you’d not have brought them up.

Believe it or not, it's totally irrelevant.

That was not the point of the discussion and you're just taking things way beyond the tangents.

But, why so much bluster? What's in it for you?

However, whether I've tried the Fujitsu tablet or not is not how one approaches the product or any other product. If one does go to the story and is looking for a tablet, then it is, of course, important to compare products. What you and I read and comment about does not have to be "real" in terms of actual experience or "using" or "touching" a product. I have not used the Fujitsu tablet, but, if I were to go looking for a fully capable PC in tablet form, then I'd be a lot better informed about the tablet before even touching it. And, that's what reviews are about. Most people don't have the time nor the resources nor the "connections" to get all of the necessary information before going to the story and making a decision, and thus, having a review from somebody that's actually touched or used one is very helpful. I'll bet you weren't smart enough to understand what product reviews are intended for.

Here’s a clue for the clueless.
Are you looking in the mirror while saying that?

But, with all the cluelessness you've demonstrated so far, I doubt anybody would find your "clues" credible or important.

Win7 has a file size of around 6 GB, and then another 2 GB for page file. Now let’s compare contrast. Android is small, as is Apple - we are talking well under 1 GB. So, with a 1 GHz procossor motoring about - what does it move through more responsively? An OS in the 360-600 MB range, or 6 GB of OS?

All completely irrelevant!

With technology becoming cheaper and with memory becoming cheaper each month, and with software not adding any measureable weight to the tablets or to the smartphones, people won't care about how much memory any OS or piece of software will consume. The Fujitsu will be available with about 64 gigabytes of memory, and 6 or 7 GB won't really be that "consequential" to the usage, except in the amount of energy consumed; but, with the newer longer life batteriea coming out, even battery life won't be an issue. The advantages of battery life will virtually disappear, and just like with the PCs, where storage became cheaper and more desireable, the same will be true with tablets and smartphones. So, the issues you mentioned won't even enter into the decision-making, especially when the differences between the different makes of tablets and smartphones won't be that much.

There is a reason hardly anyone buys a Windows tablet, and a reason why everyone avoids them.

Windows tablets have been around since the 1990s, and if nobody was buying them, then nobody would have heard of them. And, now, thanks to Apple and the iPad, the Windows tablets will become a competitor to be reckoned with. Apple may have "recreated" and "redefined" the form factor, but, Apple will again, be relegated to being a 10% player in that market once all the others get going with their versions of the product, including the Windows versions. I'm pretty sure that Apple and Google are not being as dismissive as you are, because, they need to be on the lookout for what Microsoft brings to the table, and, one thing Microsoft competitors know from prior lessons, you don't dismiss the biggest player in the field, and if you do, you'd be taking some very huge risks.

According to the review: http://www.ruggedpcreview.com/3_slates_fujitsu_stylistic_q550.html According to the review - we have less than a 3 hour battery life, and a starting price of $800. Meanwhile, the iPad 2 is coming out in a matter of months - so we’ll see what that sports, and at what price.

Actually, that review wasn't too bad for the Fijutsu tablet. And, that review did mention that, for now, they have diffeent target customers.

However, if that tablet, and other similar tablets with Windows as the OS, were to be compared, on the same table in a computer store, with the iPad and the new Android tablets, then I'm pretty sure that, if the prices were also comparable (which the Fujitsu certainly is at $800), there would be a lot more "PC" tablets sold than iPads, especially with the Windows tablets proving to be a heck of a lot more useful and compatible with what people already understand in the laptop and desktop environments.

The time for the simple, limited function tablets is soon to be over, and iPad tablets will be a thing of the past in 2 or so years. Apple is the one that's going to have to follow the lead of the Windows tablets and perhaps the Android tablets which are promising more features/functionalities.

Look for product cancellation announcements in a month or two.

Wishing and hoping for failure is not how one needs to approach a product or even life. Except, of course, I do hope that Obama fails with his ideas and plans for the country.

So, in the year+ since Apple delivered the iPad - MSFT has not responded to the tablet market at all.

It took Microsoft and others more than a decade to respond to the MacIntosh computer, but, once they did, Apple computers almost became extinct. (Remember that?).

But, Microsoft and the other players aren't waiting a decade this time, and the competition is coming out, on a weekly basis, with competitive products. It takes time and, the tablet and smartphone markets are fairly young, and when the market starts to settle, Apple will again have to take a back-seat. Apple's market-share is destined to be no more than 10% of anywhere where they're allowed to play.

Fujitsu is making essentially a netbook with a touchscreen (same approach as the HP Slate from 6 months ago).

Don't forget the part of your chosen article which includes this part in the review:

One area where the Stylistic Q550 trumps the iPad is in its available dual input that combines capacitive multi-touch with an inductive electromagnetic pen. It's an auto-sensing arrangement that automatically switches between touch and pen. Having a pen for applications and tasks that require precise input or drawing is a big advantage, and it certainly also comes in handy operating the mouse-oriented Windows 7 user interface.

The iPad can't do that. And the iPad is basically a dumb client, like something from the mainframe age of dumb terminals. ;)

But, hey, it'll still be good enough for consumption of news and information, which is something that I would target in my application. So, bring the good, the bad, and the ugly, as long as I could use them.

Who knows, maybe Fujitsu will succeed where Folio, HP, Levino and others have failed. Maybe monkeys will come flying out my backside.

You're still living in the past. You keep forgetting that, with Apple "reinventing" and "redefining" the mobile markets, that, everybody and his dad will be coming out with very competitive and equally useful and perhaps much better devices than what Apple and Google have come up with. Apple has had an advantage which will soon disappear.

Meanwhile, we have 15 Million+ iPads on the market,

That's a very insignificant number when you consider that the PC marketplace has more than 1.5 billion PCs out there, with 90% of them using Windows. The potential for perhaps 10 or 20 times more tablets than have been sold is very attractive, and the competition is gearing up for it. No matter what, Apple will be delegated to the 10% of market-share which is traditionally for them, but, it's still a profitable number for them since their products sell for so much more than the competition with similar products.

500K apps in the store,

Most of them useless, so no real advantage there.

and the second generation iPad launch immenent.

Have you heard about the "new" features? Thin, and lighter? Those are features? And, oh yeah, a front-facing camera. And, the other most impoetant feature for Apple, another chance to pick the pockets of their loyal fans. Heck, that fan-base will be looking to "upgrade" their iPad version one, to the iPad2, just because the logo says "Apple" on it.

There's a sucker born every minute.

And again, what has MSFT done?


Microsoft does create Oses for various form factors, It's up to the manufacturers to try to make those Oses fit into their hardware. But, Microsoft has responded with WM7 and with the upcoming Windows 8, which you are hoping will fail, even before you know what it's going to be like.

Nothing.

Like I said, MS doesn't manufacture Pcs of any type, nor tablets nor smartphones. Hopefully, you know that.

But, if you see nothing, then you're being willfully blind and in denial and a typica fanboi with empty rhetoric.

MSFT is no longer managed by Geeks;

And, it would be very idiotic to have it managed by the clueless geeks. And, I'm a geek myself, even if in the software side. When it comes to business, I'd need to hire people who know how to get my product out there to the masses with good marketing and sales and management skills.

You need to stick to the bits and bytes and to the gates and switches, and leave the business thinking to those that know how to do it. "Geeks in charge" would be a comedy skit on TV.

they are in their death spiral - managed by Business managers.

You get "stupider" by the sentence.

Microsoft is a company with very hefty profits in the last few years, and they still have a lot more products and services than Apple and Google combined, and the user-base for all things Microsoft is unmatchable in the industry. So, what planet did you just come from?

Meanwhile, who manages Apple? Do they have any technical background? Hmmmm, wonder if there is something there?

Let's see: Apple's success can be summed up with 3 products: iPod, iPhone, and iPad. That's a very limited product set, and once the advantage disappears with the competition eating Apple's lunch, then Apple is going to have to rethng or reinvent or "re-innovate" themselves.

And, guess what?

Do you think that Jobs or any other geek at Apple is actually doing the "business" management? If you do, then you are as clueless as a communist at a convention for capitalists.

Regarding attention span ... I have nothing but positive things to say about Apple, Google and RIM. Each understands that the Mobile Market brings with it certain key requirements (not features ... requirements). My beef has been solely with MSFT for failing, over and over.
RIM has been caught flatfooted in the current marketplace where the coolness factor of "features" is in demand, like with the iPhone and iPads. Never mind that poeple can't really get anything useful done other than browsing and e-mail and watchng movies.

But, again, your "fanboism" is showing, and you're not considering how the marketplace is in constant change. The iPad and iPhone "coolness" factor will fade once poeple start looking for real functionality and real usefulness.

“many people think of the Zune as a better product than Apple’s iPod”


You are aware that MSFT cancelled the Zune - because ‘many people’ didn’t buy one.

Also, the Zune marketplace is alive and well with support and connections being expanded via smartphones (including, of course, WM7), and Xbox360.

So, whatever you heard is mostly wishful thinking on the part of the rumormongers and Microsoft haters.

“When it comes to the WinCE, well, again, Microsoft was there before Apple and before Google, the current bigger players”

Yes, WinCE was the first attempt my MSFT in the mobile marketplace. And it flopped. What lessons were learned, as to ‘why’ it flopped; why Symbian took dominance? Apprarently nothing was learned.

You need to remember that Microsoft was mostly concentrating on the desktop/laptop OS market, and by doing so, they became a giant which will probably never be displaced as the leader in that area. Now that the tablet and smartphone markets have taken off, Microsoft is getting re-focused, and Apple and Google are beginning to worry.

WinCe was relatively successful, but, in an area where Microsoft didn't foresee a big return for their smartphones, they didn't really put forth the effort to be really competitive. But, thanks to Apple, the smartphone and tablet markets have been redefined and now, Microsoft and many others are re-entering the field with renewed vigor, and though Apple and Google have a lead right now, that won't be the case in 1 or 2 years.

Win7 Mobile was delivered a YEAR later than promised, with features that the competition already - noticeably missing. Late to market, and the SDK followed another 6 months later yet.

Better to get it right than to rush it and get left out of the market altogether. But, that's a lesson that somebody with the simple-mindedness of a geek wouldn't understand.

And, the features of the WM7 phones are very comparable to those of the competition, and when it comes to real functionality and applications that matter, then WM7 and any new tablets based on the MS OSes, will eventually outdo and outperform those other things which aren't much more than "toys".

Microsoft may be late to the game, but, once in it and focused, they tend to win in the end, just like they did with Windows and Office and their enterprise endeavors. And, hey, let's not forget Bing, which has been taking off lately to the tune of around 30% of the search market (thats MS Bing and Yahoo search combined). Late to the game, but gaining and worrying the competition. And yet another product where they were very late is the game systems, where Microsoft invested and lost billions of dollars, but eventually, they caught up and surpassed the competition from the PS3 and WII. Sometimes, being first to a game doesn't matter; what matters is who comes away the winner, even if it takes a while. But, again, that's a lesson lost on a "geek" who can't understand how business functions.

How many Win7 mobile phones have sold?

Irrelevant!

Microsot is in it for the long haul, and it will take years for the real winner(s) in the tablet and smartphone market to be determined.

No one is saying - sure, they announce that they built 2 Million a few months ago - but they have only sold a couple thousand. Lots and lots of them in warehouses. No one wants one.

Still irrelevant!

It's like the race between the hare and the tortoise. The rabbit may be faster out of the gate, but, the turtle wins the race. Go look it up.

The moral of the story is that, being first out of the gate does not guarantee long-term success or the long-term lead.

“Also, one thing that you’re apparently very late to recognize is that, in order to become “competitive”, one often has to buy the competition or bribe the competition or join the competition”

There's nothing wrong with that statement, and it's a reality in business. It happens all the time.

Really? How astute...

Yes! Really!

You may not like "reality" but, you have to face it or be left behind.

You mean like France? If you can’t win a war - surrender or go in league with the ‘competition’?

No dude! Like in the business world!

Don't you realize that, when it comes to business, things don't work the same as in the world of politics and governments?

Try to find an analogy that works in the world of business. The one you gave absolutely stinks.

And how successful have these companies been? Can you name a few?

Ever hear of Microsoft? Ever hear of Google? Ever hear of IBM? Ever hear of Apple?

All of those companies, and many others are/were "guilty" of purchasing/merging their way into markets which they weren't in or weren't competitive in. And, they're still around and being quite successful.

Try to keep up with the times. “However, when it comes to those “Windows” tablets, well they are better, even if not as low in weight, and not as thin, and the battery life might not be as good as the iPad, and perhaps not as low price as the lower end iPad. But, feature-wise and capabilities-wise, those Windows tablets are a lot better than any version of the iPad.”

I still stand by that statement.

Ok aside from having 1 year to copy a competitor, they weigh more, have shorter battery life, are more expensive - and are BETTER than the iPad? You do know that Apple isn’t standing still, don’t you? How do you define ‘better’?

Better means being more productive and having usage that is comparable to what one would use a "real" PC for. Better means doing what the competition does and then going many steps further and creating a more feature rich experience with a many hardware/software features that can be found on a full-fledged desktop or laptop. Comprende?

We are talking Mobility - weight, battery life and cost are critical.

Low cost does not provide "mobility", but weight and size and long battery life do. That's why, with what's coming down the pike, the Windows 8 tablets will outperform anything that's out there now, with longer battery life, low weight, and easily manageable size. With the improvements in battery technology that are being reported, the Apple advantage will disappear completely.

Apparently you don’t know the difference even at the most fundamental level what a tablet market is for, do you?

You don’t have a freakin’ clue. Good God, you took several steps back.


Tablets have been around for quite a while and they were around since the 90s, and what we have now that has attempted to "redefine" the tablet market is the simple gadgets known as iPads and Android-based tablets. But, those are very limited functionality gadgets, and they can't even be classified as "computers". But, there are others, including Microsoft, who are defining their tablets as being a lot more functional, for both businesses and the general consumer. Once everything comes together and the "form factor", including price, ends up being quite similar to the iPad and the Android tablets, then the Windows tablets will win the race.

It's quite apparent that the one falling for the "current definition" of a tablet is you, and you can't imagine that a tablet is nothing more than portability. Tablet doesn't mean "limited functionality". Get that into your head.

Your limited geekness is showing, and you're the one that apparently has no clue. You don't just need to take several steps back, you need to start all over.

A garden tractor and a motorbike are two very different tools. There is no comparison, one is for productivity, the other for leisure.
Another weak and false analogy.

If garden tractors could be combined with motorbikes and work and fun could be combined at very reasonable prices and reasonable expenses, then I imagine it would have been done by now.

But, when it comes to computers and tablets, their functionality and form factors aren't that much different, but one is a heck of a lot more useful for work and leisure. A PC can come in the form of a tablet. So, again, the one that proves to be completely clueless is, non other than, YOU.

If I can get a computer in a tablet, and I can use it for both work and leisure, than I would want the computer in a tablet and not a limited experience gadget which costs approximately the same. I don't want to have to spend money on two different pieces of technology if I can help it. A compute in a tablet is a lot more practical than the iToy or the Android toys. Heck, when the iPad "grows up", it's also going to be including more of the regular computer features in it, and the iPad5 or iPad7 may finally catch up with the Fujitsu table in features and functionality. Apple has no choice, and they're going to have to continue adding more sophisticated features to the tablet in order to keep up. Apple may have "redefined" the form factor, but they're the ones who are going to be left behind if they don't "innovate" to keep up with the better tablets coming out.

While I can do Word/Powerpoint/Excel on an iPad - the experience sucks. The virtual keyboard constrains me to a very small window of operation. So, while I can do productity on the iPad - it’s a miserable experience. The laptop wins.

It's a matter of choosing a combination of tablets and computers which, will serve different purposes, and as needed. But, if a computer can come in tablet format, with a decent size screen, then, for the times where mobility matters, there is no reason to take a "simple" tablet when the full-featured tablet (aka: computer in table form), would be a much better fit for the tasks at had, such as Word/Powerpoint/Excel and other "real computing" needs.

When it comes to leisure, the laptop can play movies, it can play music, allow me to surf the web, and read books - but with a high weight, low battery life, unweildly size - the experience is miserable. Especially for a person who spends times on planes, buses, or reading in bed.

You're still arguing for argument's sake.

Look, the argument is not about laptops vs tablets. The argument is between "full computer" power in a tablet format, versus the limited features found in an iPad or Android tablet.

If the Windows tablet can perform the same limited functions as the iPad, and it then has a lot of other features which puts the iPad to shame, then the Windows table WINS.

Nobody is arguing about a 5-10 lb laptop vs a lighweight/small-sized tablet. The argument is about a tablet which is highly portable vs another table which is highly portable, but one of them has the features found on a laptop. And, if the form factors are the same, and the prices aren't dramatically different, I and most people, would prefer the full-featured tablet. It's about getting a lot more for the money in the same "form factor". Get it?

You want to debate MSFT Tablet strategy - and you obvsiously don’t have a clue what market the tablet is designed for?

Actually, it is YOU that has the WRONG definition of what a tablet is. Your definition is narrow-minded and is using the current offerings from Apple and Android as the standard. I'm using the more practical definition, which is the form factor, including size, weight, battery life, and price. In that sense, I'm using the standard definition, and the tablet has nothing to do with "having limited capabilities and limited use".

Comprende?

And you think I’m stupid.

Stupid is as stupid does. In this case, stupid is as stupid says.

You don’t have a clue what you are talking about? I'm the one destroying every one of your "points" and you're the one on the defensive.

And, with your narrow-minded view of technology and tablets and business, then it's quite obviously YOU, that has no clue about what he's talking about.

Why would a tablet need a compass? Accelerometers? Why an IPS screen? You don’t have a clue do you?
Have you asked the manufacturers? If you haven't, then it's you that has no clues.

You're the kind that would've asked, some 30 years ago, why anyone would need a screen to see what he's doing with his computer, or what the computer has "computed" before outputting it to paper. As an "engineer", you're not forward-looking at all, and if you would never make it as an idea person in any company. Understanding innovation is beyond your capabilities.

Why are these NOT present in Laptops? No eartly idea do you?

Why aren't they on desktops? And why aren't they on mainframes and supercomputers? Why aren't they on my TV sets? Keep going with your silly questions.

It's all completey irrelevant and spurious.

Your points are completely tangential and purposeless.

You obviuously don’t know what you are babbling about.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that, if someone saw this discussion/debate between you and me, that they'd conclude that, it's you with the meaningless and useless babble.

Your definition of tablets is laughable, at best. And your hate of anything Microsoft is nothing more than the fanboism of somebody that still needs to grow into manhood, and your view that "geeks" would be better businesspeople in the tech sector is, well, idiotic in a huge sense.

So, all in all, it looks like you're the one needing to go back to school, and you're the one lacking in the understanding of how the real world works.

Now, like I said before, the burden of proof is on your side, and you still haven't given us the evidence that would "prove" that Microsoft is going to fail with Windows 8. Remember that? The discussion is about Windows 8, and your wishes for it to fail, and I challenged you on whatever inside knowledge you had from Microsoft that would lead you to believe that Windows 8 is for certain going to be a failure. Fanboism is for the fanatic, and reality based opinion is a lot more welcome. You're basing your bashing of Microsot on your wishes for it to tail, and not on practical knowledge of the system or the plans.

So, try to keep it simple and present your "facts", and don't carry on about your definition of tablets, and don't drag this on with Microsoft vs Apple vs Google rants.

Stayng on points and working with the facts is always better than speculation and fanboism and perceptions.
25 posted on 02/28/2011 10:06:39 AM PST by adorno
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To: adorno

5 pages of blather, and you clearly have no idea of what you are babbling about.

Umm, yes the iPad can use a Stylus as well as a finger. Geez... clue-less. Ignorant beyond belief.

http://www.amazon.com/BoxWave-Capacitive-iPad-Stylus-Black/dp/B000BUI76S

Ipad a dumb terminal? You clearly don’t even know what a dumb terminal is. Here’s a clue, a dumb terminal cannot run an App without a connection.

You have no clue what you are babbling about. Not a freakin’ clue. You have no idea what the iPad is - yet you write pages of wasted bandwidth.

Get a clue, grow up - does Mommy know you are using her PC?


26 posted on 02/28/2011 10:29:30 AM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar
How does MSFT expect to make a profit, selling a Win8 tablet OS - with high performance requirements, when the competition which uses a FREE operating system, cannot beat Apple?

Maybe they'll deliver something that the other two haven't been able to yet, like the ability to join and participate in a Windows security domain and become an active, manageable part of the enterprise.

27 posted on 02/28/2011 10:57:30 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: Hodar
5 pages of blather, and you clearly have no idea of what you are babbling about.

I look at it differently.

It's more like 5 pages in which I thoroughly destroyed every one of your illogical and misinformed and clueless points, and your "fanboism".

Umm, yes the iPad can use a Stylus as well as a finger. Geez... clue-less.

So, a stylus is okay when it can be used by the iPad, but it's useless when it's included as a "feature" on other tablets. Are you even able to recognize your contradictions? Are you really that dense?

Ignorant beyond belief.

That's what I keep saying about you. Thanks for agreeing with me. We might finally be coming to some kind of agreement. ;)

http://www.amazon.com/BoxWave-Capacitive-iPad-Stylus-Black/dp/B000BUI76S

Oooh!! Another link to try to "dismember" my side of the argument.

But, was it included as a "feature" by Apple for its iPad tablet? All it shows is that people will have to spend more to get the iPad to do what comes standard with other tablets. But, how well does the stylus work with the iPad when Apple had not originally intended for that kind of interaction? It's like an afterthought and not originally included "feature".

Ipad a dumb terminal?

Yes! A dumb terminal that has been "upgraded/updated" with current "features", such as a wireless connection. If wireless had been as available in the old days, then those dumb terminals could easily have been called "the iPads" of the 70s and 80s and 90s. Should "wireless" be actually classified as a "feature" and/or as an advantage? If the iPad could work in a wired mode, would it have any less capabilities, other than mobility? Mobility is an advantage that wireless has over wired, but, if those "dumb" terminals of the past had wireless capabilities, then, how much better would the iPad have been?

Did you ever work with the "dumb" terminals of the past?

They were as capable of displaying "content" as the current iPad, except the graphics in those days stunk or were non-existent. But, the content was served from a "server" somewhere in a computer room, or in a headquarters building. That's not much different from what we have today with cloud technology and with iPads, which have to download "apps" and content before they're usable.

You clearly don’t even know what a dumb terminal is. Here’s a clue, a dumb terminal cannot run an App without a connection.

That's actually a very dumb definition for what constitutes a "dumb" terminal.

It's apparent that, your definition of a "smart" terminal is one that can connect wirelessly, but, the old "dumb" terminals had "connectivity, even if wired, but, connected they were.

It's quite apparent that you're talking and thinking out of your rear without any thought about what you write.

You have no clue what you are babbling about.

Do you know any other words besides "babbling"? That's very unprofessional and very childish, and that kind of communication is most often found in schoolyards with 9 or 10 year olds.

However, the one with the misinformed and ignorant statement thus far has been you, with no facts and just bluster and incoherent statements.

Not a freakin’ clue.

Perhaps, some day, when you mature a bit, you'll go back to this discussion and you'll ask yourself, "was that really me saying all of those dumb things?".

And, hey, again... what's with the very immature language skills?

"Freaking" and "babbling" aren't words that belong in an adult conversation. Did you actually go to college?

You have no idea what the iPad is - yet you write pages of wasted bandwidth.

Why are you so stuck on defending the iPad? Why not just any tablet? What's in it for you? Are you emotionally connected to the iPad and Apple? Are you so in love with anything Apple that you're rendered incoherent and wacky and illogical?

Get a clue, grow up

You remind me of the people who have been committed to the insane asylum, who believe that it's the rest of the world that is crazy. You're in an alternate reality, and perhaps it's more to do with your juvenile brain not having grown all of your brain cells yet, or, more likely, you still haven't been out into the real world in order to get clued in on the reality.

When it comes to growing up, I've done that already, and I'd be happy to give you some lessons on life, which you seem to be very lacking in.

- does Mommy know you are using her PC?

Nope! Mommy doesn't have a PC, and she doesn't know how to use one either. But, she's never needed to use one or understand one.

But, when it comes to PCs and computer knowledge, I'm apparently the one with a vastly bigger knowledge. And, hey, I'm not talking about the bits and the bytes and the gates and the switches. I've been around, and I'm 100% certain that I have a lot more experience in the "field" than you could attain in 100 years.

So, when it comes to computers and iPads and tablets, don't argue with your limited fanboism rhetoric. And when it comes to computers in general, you cannot use your "engineer" background to try to win an argument. That's arrogance. Now, when it comes to actual experience in the field, I can be arrogant, but, I can back up my "bluster" with experience that gets included on my resume. And, when it comes to general life experiences, I'm pretty sure I have a lot more of that than you.

So, in the end, it's quite apparent that, it's you that has a lot of growing up to do.

Now, you keep evading the questions which I posed, and the only ones that should matter, and so I'll ask again:

So, what knowledge are you privy to, from Microsoft, that caused you to conclude that Windows 8 "will be" a failure. Answer that and you can go about gaining some real life and computer experience. Remember, you're the one that made your outlandish predictions, so, it's incumbent upon you to answer the question. And, don't drag it on with the iPad vs any Windows tablets. That's not what your original point was.
28 posted on 02/28/2011 12:39:11 PM PST by adorno
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To: tacticalogic

But, is this in keeping with the Tablet’s purpose?

Small, lightweight, extreme portability, batterylife and leisure.

A tablet uses a virtual keyboard, which consumes vital desktop space. Sure, I can do Word, Excel, PP and Notes on my iPad - but I wouldn’t want to author anything major. When the keyboard is up - I have about 3 inches of screen left for my work.

In order to alleviate this problem, I could use a bluetooth external keyboard/mouse - but then, why not use a Laptop? To match the Laptop in Productivity, I have to carry 3 components - and then only have a 10 inch screen to work on.

Where the Tablet could come in handy, in the workplace could be inventory control, MD’s reviewing patient records/x-rays as they move from room to room, pulling specifications during manufacturing inspections - stuff along that line. Light duty data entry.

Generally speaking, Laptops are for productivity - Tablets are for leisure. Like comparing Lawn Tractors to motorcycles.

If I were MSFT, I would first decide if the piece of the pie is worth the investment. Android and iOS have a huge jump in this market. IMHO, what MSFT can do, is use the OnLive Cloud based gaming technology - as a lever into the market. XBox360 and XBox Live have a huge following - to merge this audience into a MSFT portable unit would certainly have legs.

Unfortuantely, MSFT has opted not to pursue this aggressively. IMHO, MSFT has the technical prowess to do this - but lacks the managerial capability to attempt anything 5% of this ambitious. I call them Biztards, Business Managers of a technical company - who do not possess technical degrees or have a technical background.


29 posted on 02/28/2011 12:39:53 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar
Hodar: That last post to tacticallogic is full of the same nonsense which I already destroyed in my series of posts. Try to be coherent and logical, and forget your fanboism. Tablets cannot be defined as for one particular segment of society, namely the personal user. If it can do a whole lot more, then by all means, let the manufacturers develop them with a whole lot more and let the consumer and businesses decide.

And, hey, I noticed that you're back with your dumb and illogical statements about "biztards". It's time to grow up and start using your head.
30 posted on 02/28/2011 12:49:02 PM PST by adorno
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To: adorno
So, what knowledge are you privy to, from Microsoft, that caused you to conclude that Windows 8 "will be" a failure

I look at what MSFT has done. WinXP was a jump forward, Vista a step backward, Win7 more of a patched version of Vista than anything else.

Now look at Office, what 'features' have been introduced since Office97? What has been actually necessary to the average user? The only reason people upgrade, is to keep 'current' with the new file formats (.doc to docx).

With people buying 1, 2 and 4 GB sticks of DDR2 or DDR3; why does Win7 utilize a HDD for cache? With access to vast amounts of memory with speeds in the 6-17 Gigabits/second range; MSFT still utilizes 2 GB cache chunks on a HDD with speeds that burst at 133 MB/s and have sustained speeds of 8-14 MB/sec. We won't even mention the differences in latency.

WinCE was a failure, and Win7 was delivered a YEAR later than promised, and then the SDK was delivered 6 months after that. Meanwhile the competition (WebOS, RIM and Apple) all have features that Win7 Mobile still doesn't support.

Your statement that MSFT will be better 'the next time' is "Magical Thinking". Based on a rich history of failures - I think MSFT is in a death spiral.

31 posted on 02/28/2011 12:53:58 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar
I call them Biztards

That explains a lot. What do you call the Apple proponents who talk about iPads "taking over the enterprise"?

32 posted on 02/28/2011 12:54:37 PM PST by tacticalogic
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To: adorno
If it can do a whole lot more, then by all means, let the manufacturers develop them with a whole lot more and let the consumer and businesses decide.

Looks to me like the market has decided. I do think the 2011 will be updated. Bear in mind that the 'Other' includes Android, WebOS and Win 7. Based on data available to day, ~80% of the 'Other' is Android.

And, recall that the first 'competitors' against the iPad were MSFT's Win7 Home; basically a tablet version of the iPad. They failed .... miserably.

33 posted on 02/28/2011 12:59:38 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: tacticalogic
What do you call the Apple proponents who talk about iPads "taking over the enterprise"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Apple managment made up of people with a technical backgrounds? Jobs, Tim Cook,Peter Schiller, Scot Forestall, Michael Ives all have a technical backgrounds. Ive has a degree in Art, and an honorary doctoriate from Newcastle Polytechnic.

These are not business degree folk, who have no grasp of what technology can do. These are technologically savvy managers, who can lead teams of engineers toward a vision. There is a huge difference between the dweeb who wrote a paper - and now is given the keys to a company, whom he destroys; and a techie who understands what can and should be done; and does it.

Look at Sr. Management at Intel. Technically savvy managers - it's why Intel keeps at the top. Now look at other Biztards - let's pick my favorite Biztard; Hector Ruiz.

Once in charge of Motorol's vast semiconductor industry (once #2, behind Intel) Ruiz drove it to ruin. Now Motorola has no semiconductor business - it's been spun off to Freescale (and doing nicely now). Ruiz then went to AMD (Advanced Micro-devices) where his rein of ruin resulted in numberous layoffs, and divesting AMD's semiconductor indsutry (now called Spansion, and doing nicely now). Ruiz then went on to fire the motherboard team in Dresden, Germany, and then after destroying AMD - has submerged again. AMD is on the rocks, folks. Dead and dying; as is Motorola.

How about the legendary Carly Fiona? A biztard with no grasp of what the company is, or how it operates. And the damage Carly did, while not fatal; severely hurt HP/Agilent.

MSFT is now populated with Biztards. People without a clue how to move forward, or what direction they should move. People buy MSFT because they feel they have little other choice.

34 posted on 02/28/2011 1:14:34 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: tacticalogic
What do you call the Apple proponents who talk about iPads "taking over the enterprise"?

Bluntly, I think those Apple proponents are engaging in 'wishful thinking'.

Now, if they want to monitor a 'Cloud' from an iPad - ok, I'll buy that. But, if they want to do serious enterprize work, the tablet is simply not the right tool for the job. I'd no more suggest heavy intensive work on an iPad, than I would any Atom based Netbook running any version of Windows. Wrong tool for the job.

The Laptop/Desktop is primarily a productivity device; Tablets are convenience and primarily leisure devices. Not saying they are limited to leisure - but their small size, lack of keyboard/mouse means that data entry has to be minimal. Simply like using a screwdriver like a crowbar - sure, you can do it; but it's not the right tool.

35 posted on 02/28/2011 1:20:09 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar
So when someone at MS says something you disagree with he's a "Biztard". When someone at Apple does it they're just engaged in a little "wishful thinking".

It's not rocket surgery to do the math on that one.

36 posted on 02/28/2011 1:34:11 PM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

Who said that anyone was from MSFT?

Who at Apple said that the iPad was going into the Enterprise market?

That is you projecting.

My statement is that I sincerely doubt that MSFT has a clue as to what they are doing. This is because, their senior managment has gone from Geeks (ie. Bill Gates and Co.) to Biztards.

Where companies who embrace the Nerd excel; companies that embrace the biztard die a horrible death. If Apple were to start removing technically savvy managers - Apple will fail. It’s not an Apple vs MSFT thing - it’s an Engineer vs Business Manager issue. You seem to want to make it an Apple vs MSFT thing - that’s never been my stance.

MSFT is failing - due to Biztards. Just like AMD did, HP did, and countless other companies have. Engineers create, start and grow companies. Biztards come in, and destroy them.


37 posted on 02/28/2011 1:42:01 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar

Doesn’t look like the market has decided at all. The competition is growing, pretty astronomically.


38 posted on 02/28/2011 1:46:00 PM PST by discostu (this is definitely not my confused face)
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To: Hodar
I've read the articles, posted right here on FR by the Apple proponents about how the iPad is "taking over the enterprise". That's their words.

If that's just me "projecting" then it never happened, and no such thread ever existed, right?

39 posted on 02/28/2011 1:53:36 PM PST by tacticalogic
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To: Hodar

That graphic/graph is so dumb for anyone to use as a “proof” that the “market has decided”.

Look, the tablet market has received a “redesign”, and that new tablet redefinition was brought about because of the iPad, and, just like anything else on the market, no matter what the market, the “original” will, of course, have a big head-start and an advantage out of the gate with bigger sales.

So, even if the iPad has sales of 10 or 20 or 30 million, the market is barely getting started, and the winner is still to be determined and still way in the future.

You are getting desperate, and you’ll try anything to try to win the argument, and the pie charts you presented are not indicative of what the competition is about to unleash on the market.

Come back in 2 or 3 years when the market has matured and received a more balanced introduction of tablets from the many manufacturers who will become competitive against the iPad and anything Android.

Even after having the “new” tablet form factor to itself, the iPad hasn’t really sold as many as one would expect, and there aren’t going to be too many people willing to part with $500 to $800 for simple tablets when for the same kind of money, they could get their hands on an i5 laptop or desktop. Heck, I just bought myself a desktop with the AMD Phenom six core CPU, and with a 2 terabytes harddrive, and 16 GB of main memory, and it cost me only $799. That’s a computer with “supercomputing” capabilities for the price of an iPad. The iPad and any other tablet for around $600 to $800 is simply insane. I want tablets, for a more reasonable price, and they’re coming.

The iPad did set sales records, and it is in the lead, but, the market for iPads may have reached saturation point, and it’s “growth” may depend more on the “replacement” arena, where, the “new” iPad2s end up being purchased by the same iPad1 customers. Recurring purchases do not add to the customer base.

But, sales comparisons between different manufacturers are silly when, the market is basically a new one with virtually one player having most of the initial sales because, they were virtually the only player in the market.

Let’s see what happens when the competition gets going. One thing for sure is that, the iPad and Androids are going to get a lot more competition this year and next, and the sales figures to look for will be the ones that come out after the 2011 shopping season and those towards the middle of 2012, when even more competition enters the market.

So, again, why are you so intent on defending the iPad and touting the sales figures when the competition was virtually non-existent? What you’re doing is like comparing the output of an orange tree which took 15 years to grow against an orange tree which was “born” 2 years ago. It’s unfair and nonsensical. Let’s see the production of both trees when they’re of comparable sizes.

But, I’m not interested on sales figures. I’m interested on you answering the questions I keep posing to you regarding the Windows 8, and the reasons that “it will fail” according to you.

Look, stay away from the fanboism and the charts and your excuses, and concentrate on the discussion at hand. I don’t care about Apple or Microsoft or Google. I just want tablets that are “useful” for more than just “media consumption”. If Windows 8 were to give me what I want, then I might want one, but, if it’s destined to be a failure like you claim, I want to know what inside information you have that would have you make that claim.

Comprende?


40 posted on 02/28/2011 2:13:37 PM PST by adorno
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To: tacticalogic

I’ve never stated that, nor have I read it.

You are the FIRST to mention it, and then attribute it to me. So, yes - from my point of view, you are projecting.

Will Apple make it into Enterprise? I don’t know, never played with an Apple server. I wish them well.

I’ve never read a thread where Apple fanboi’s made the statement that iPads were ‘taking it to the enterprise’ - I’ve never seen them, and I have never claimed to have read every thread - that’s you projecting, again.

I do not speak for anyone else, I can’t be responsible for what an Apple fan says - any more than you can be accountable for another thread with a MSFT fan.


41 posted on 02/28/2011 2:17:22 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: adorno

I agree with much of what you have stated. We simply don’t know what the Tablet market will be. It’s a ‘new’ market - that has been drastically redesigned with Apple’s iPad.

With 15 Million plus in the first year - I think we do have an idea where it’s going. But, bear in mind this was projected by the ‘experts’ to be a phenominal failure. The ‘experts’ predicted sales of less than 3 Million; and Apple would have to drop the price.

In 2 to 3 years, the tablet will be a commodity - much like the laptop you have. But, the question will what ‘kind’ of commodity will it be?

I question you, if 15 Million in 1 year; for a brand new design - something totally unique - if 15 Million isn’t ‘good enough’ - what did you expect?

And yes, I do agree that the price tag is high - but what I do not understand is that the competition cannot match, or beat the ‘Apple tax’ reputation that Apple has.

Now, IMHO, the bottom end iPad is unuseable. At 16 GB, it’s too small for multi-media and anything else. So, for the interest of simplicity - let’s say that the entry point for a Tablet from Apple is $600. That’s 32 Gig and a 10” screen.

I fail to see the appeal of 3G or 4G; as I can use my cell to Hot Spot - so why pay $25-30/month for a duplicate data plan. The Xoom is available with 3G for $800, and it’s now reported that after 6 weeks in the lab, you can upgrade it to ‘4G’ (and it’s really not 4G - that’s another discussion).

I was one of the folk who pre-ordered the iPad 1.0. At that point in time, I owned exactly 1 Apple product - a 7 yr old iPod. I now own an iPhone 5, that same 7 yr old iPod, and an iPad. So, I’m hardly an Apple fanboi. I do own 2 Win7 desktops and a 17 inch HP laptop also sporting Win7 Ultimate. 3 different Windows machines - not one Mac.

Will I replace the iPad 1 with the iPad 2? Absolutely not. Why? Because the iPad 2 is just polish on an already solid design. Possibly 1.2 GHz dual core over my single core 1 GHz? big deal. Better display? Sorry, this one is good enough for me. More memory? I have 64 Gig and I currently have 34 Movies, 2,248 songs, 88 Apps and 2,200+ pictures and still have 2 GB left.

The iPad 2 is not really such a strong offering that a signifiant number of iPad 1 users are going to upgrade. However, it does reset the bar for those debating the Android competition. Personally, I would suggest that instead of getting the iPad 2, buy a refurb iPad 1 and save $100. The camera is a market driven device. It’s simply not practical to take a picture with a tablet.

Price-wise - I’d like to see the price come down; and in a couple years it might. My question is “Why haven’t the Androids come out at a lower price than the iPad?”.

Yes, you can get a laptop cheaper; yes the performance is drastically (incomparably) better on your laptop. Your laptop is a commodity product, the tablet market is not.

Sales comparisons is not silly, when you have new products. How else would you compare them? Sales dictates developers. 500K+ Apps iOS, 50+K apps Android, 5K apps for Win7 mobile is the latest I heard.

Why was I touting the iPad when the market didn’t exist? Because IT DID EXIST!! HP and Dell both had flip-top laptops with touch screens that were touted as ‘Tablets’. They bombed. Apple took an idea - and despite a HUGE negative campaign (remember the funny Hitler hears about the iPad YouTube) - came out with a market stunner.

This was predicted to be a failure - I knew a year ago that it was a new “niche” product. It’s not a laptop, it was never intended to compete in the laptop marketspace.

The iPad is a LEISURE DEVICE!!!

Why do you want a tablet? Small, no keys, light weight, super display, long battery life. Kindle got it, and they are doing very well with it. Nook got it, they are doing pretty well too. Apple got it, and expanded on it. Newspapers, email, books, movies, music, games.

That is the difference. I seriously doubt the iPad will EVER be competing against the laptop market. Laptops are PRODUCTIVITY devices. I fly a lot. I pack my laptop, and carry my iPad with me. Why? I get 1.5 hrs battery life on my laptop. Small airplane seats will result in a damaged laptop if the guy in front of me decides to recline. Nearly had that happen twice. With the iPad - it’s not an issue. I get 10 hours on a charge - 10 useful hours!!

At the airport (assuming AT&T can manage to provide data at International Airports) I hotspot my phone, and book my hotel, car, return trip, email ect on my iPad. At the hotel, I fire up my laptop and crunch whatever stuff I gotta crunch. I do my reports, my presentations, my schematics, ect on the laptop.

And it all revolves around what’s inside the Tablet. Small, energy efficient, and just fast enough to get the job done. If you are looking for doing PRODUCTIVITY - then you are probably looking for the Win 7 Tablet, that will cost more, and give you a 3 hour battery life.

I would humbly suggest that your money would be better spent on a laptop.

If you travel a lot - like I do, then the iPad Tablet (or possibly Android, if that’s your cup of tea) would be fine. Do NOT expect Tablets to be Productivity devices - HP and Dell tried that - and they failed.


42 posted on 02/28/2011 2:49:29 PM PST by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: Hodar

I attributed it to “Apple proponents”. Is that you?


43 posted on 02/28/2011 3:20:19 PM PST by tacticalogic
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To: Hodar

Hey, you finally sound a bit more reasonable with your rhetoric.

I’m not really interested about the reasons that you bought an iPad, and I’m not interested about the virtues of one tablet over another.

I want value, and as of today, there aren’t really any tablets that offer “good” performance for the price range of today’s tablets. The tablets need to come down to prices that are commensurate with their functionality. As such, there aren’t any tablets out there that people should be foolishly spending $500 or more for. However, if one wants to justify his/her purchase, then one should look for the tablet which can offer more advantages for similar prices.

The tablet market is evolving and prices will undoubtedly come down, and the new tablets will be coming out with more “features”.

Nevertheless, the pie chart you linked to is worthless when the comparison is in a nascent market that is still virtually composed of mostly the iPad. Like I said, let’s see what the charts reflect a year or two from now.

Now, since you apparently aren’t going to answer the question I posed to you, let’s just drop the discussion and go about our lives.


44 posted on 02/28/2011 4:05:07 PM PST by adorno
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