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Male wrestlers tend to grapple with silly notions
thonline ^ | Friday, February 18, 2011 | ERIC MANDEL TH STAFF WRITER

Posted on 02/18/2011 10:36:48 AM PST by BenLurkin

I still remember the last JV tournament of my freshman year.

My teammate Deborah Kavalar was down a few points in the third period. I don't recall the exact move, but I remember her flipping her opponent, the excitement and the pin.

More than that, I remember the reaction.

The ultra-masculine 145-pounder threw his headgear across the gym and stormed out the door as Deborah stood there awaiting a handshake.

It was embarrassing. Not because the guy lost to a girl -- Deborah had crumpled plenty of overconfident XY chromosomes over her three years on the mat. But because I was the same gender as the guy who couldn't handle a loss to a girl.

I don't bring this up as a slight to Joel Northrup, the Iowa high school wrestler who defaulted in his state wrestling match rather than wrestle a girl. Beliefs, religion -- whatever. I get it.

Aside from that, boys mostly view wrestling girls as a lose-lose situation. If you win, well, obviously you should have. She's a girl. If you lose, well, then you just lost to a girl.

My take: get over it.

Three ladies rolled around with the 2001 Nicolet Knights in Fox Point, Wis. I was a tiny tike at the time, only reaching 100 pounds by the end of the year. Our wrestling squad featured six 103-pounders. Of those six, two were girls.

I'd like to say it was never weird wrapping my arms around equally miniature members of the opposite sex during practice. I can't. It was a bit, oh, "interesting" at times. Still, it was no more awkward grabbing and jostling a girl at times than it was a guy.

But the guys weren't alone in their awkwardness; the ladies had to deal with the gender difference, too. They changed in different locker rooms, they weighed in after everybody else and they had to pretend they didn't notice the disdain on their male opponent's face who was entering a lose-lose situation.

Despite all this, I never once felt our ladies wanted to be treated differently or winners by forfeit. They did all the same drills and workouts and, most of the time, lost just as pitifully as I did.

Part of Cassy Herkelman likely was excited about receiving her first win in the state tournament. It was not the first time she's had her hand raised without a fight. I can also guarantee that she left with mixed emotions. Three years from now, when she is likely placing in the state tournament on her own accord, I bet she'll have wished she could have taken her freshman lumps.

Everybody else does.


TOPICS: Sports
KEYWORDS: allahforbidsit; sexism; sexists; wrestling
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1 posted on 02/18/2011 10:36:51 AM PST by BenLurkin
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To: BenLurkin

“My take: get over it.”

My take of your take: shut up. It will always and forever be a lose-lose situation, no matter how you pretend to feel about it.

Oh, and also grappling with girls is unseemly.


2 posted on 02/18/2011 10:39:32 AM PST by Tublecane
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To: BenLurkin
We're all chicks now.
3 posted on 02/18/2011 10:45:06 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun." -- Barry Soetoro, June 11, 2008)
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To: BenLurkin

Feminism. Pure and simple.

This whole girl wrestling gimmick is yet another ploy that feminists have been using to “prove” equality between the sexes.

Correction. I mean “prove” superiority over men.


4 posted on 02/18/2011 10:45:06 AM PST by Responsibility2nd (Yes, as a matter of fact, what you do in your bedroom IS my business.)
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To: Tublecane

It is. My son wrestled in high school. He had to wrestle a couple of ladies. The girls are good in the lower weight classes and at the freshman level with their lower bodies. Once the guys start to mature and gain upper body strength it is over for the girls.

I watched a good hockey player in 9th grade get beat by a girl. Well you know how that went.

I always told my son. She is stepping on the mat knowing full well what is going to happen. Now BEAT her. Period.


5 posted on 02/18/2011 10:48:18 AM PST by 70th Division (I love my country but fear my government!)
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To: Tublecane

“Oh, and also grappling with girls is unseemly.”

My take also. I would not want my boys wrestling with girls, or vice versa. And the parents of this girl? I don’t care who they are. I would not want my daughter participating in a sport where men’s hands were all over her.

Years ago I had a neighbor who had a beautiful daughter, who was perfect for modeling. She did not go for it, because “everyone’s hands are always all over your body”.


6 posted on 02/18/2011 10:49:10 AM PST by I still care (I miss my friends, bagels, and the NYC skyline - but not the taxes. I love the South.)
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To: BenLurkin

You forgot the “Projectile Vomit Alert”.


7 posted on 02/18/2011 10:51:52 AM PST by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: 70th Division

My son played freshman football last year. One of the other local teams had a girl on their team. She did not start or play until the last quarter.

When she finally came it, it changed the game since the boys had problems with more then shoves or tripping her.

I think it is dad’s living via their children and having them do sports traditionally for one sex or the other - I’d guess she does not have a brother and dad focused her into this sport - or, it is a lack of respect for others in that they have to live by their rules regardless of the game or others players feelings.


8 posted on 02/18/2011 10:54:08 AM PST by artificial intelligence (Your data will be processed by me for future input. Thank you.)
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To: Tublecane

The author does seem to have relished losing....

Just my opinion of course.


9 posted on 02/18/2011 10:54:32 AM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: BenLurkin

I would hang my head in shame if my son agreed to wrestle a girl.


10 posted on 02/18/2011 10:54:39 AM PST by MattinNJ (Will a hero rise in 2012? Yes. Col. Allen West was here all along.)
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To: Responsibility2nd
In theory it should be an even contest. It is one sport where the contestants are matched by general size and weight — but as another poster pointed out, the upper body strength differential probably puts most young women at a disadvantage.
11 posted on 02/18/2011 10:57:43 AM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi
Good point!


12 posted on 02/18/2011 10:59:25 AM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: artificial intelligence

I can understand what you say. But wrestling is a one on one sport with very little politics. That is what I liked about it.


13 posted on 02/18/2011 11:04:15 AM PST by 70th Division (I love my country but fear my government!)
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To: BenLurkin

Basically I would say boy vs. girl; tennis yes, wrestling Hell no!


14 posted on 02/18/2011 11:06:08 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: BenLurkin

My take: He did the right thing.

We shouldn’t normalize that it’s ok to hit women, ever.


15 posted on 02/18/2011 11:06:53 AM PST by Jonty30
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To: Responsibility2nd

If you want to know the sad truth, here it is.

They count the number of boy sports and the number of girl sports, if they are not equal, a boy’s sport has to go.

Making it coed is probably the only way they can keep it at all. Many colleges have dropped wrestling for this particular reason.


16 posted on 02/18/2011 11:07:27 AM PST by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: BenLurkin

I’m just glad I didn’t have to make this choice when I wrestled in HS. I pummeled enough guys and had been pummeled enough myself when I first started. IMHO, they should just take the mat with them and make quick work of it in a sportsman like way. The sport can be brutal even when done cleanly. I don’t remember too many moves where a person’s genitals would get in the way and if I encountered an opponent that wanted to use this socalled finger up the butt thing, I’D MAKE THEM PAY! Dearly.


17 posted on 02/18/2011 11:09:37 AM PST by Always Independent
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To: BenLurkin

“In theory it should be an even contest. It is one sport where the contestants are matched by general size and weight — but as another poster pointed out, the upper body strength differential probably puts most young women at a disadvantage.”

It’s not just the “upper body strength differential.” Men are more densely packed with muscle all around. Also, there’s that whole testosterone thing.

Not that training, technique, and talent can’t bridge the gap—up to a certain weight/maturity limit. But that brings us back to other problems (i.e. unseemliness and lose-lose).


18 posted on 02/18/2011 11:09:54 AM PST by Tublecane
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To: BenLurkin

The writer comes across as a metrosexual.


19 posted on 02/18/2011 11:10:01 AM PST by Rebelbase
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To: 70th Division

Great advice, If a female steps into the ring, treat her no different than any other wrestler...


20 posted on 02/18/2011 11:11:23 AM PST by goat granny
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To: BenLurkin

Crotch grab and hoist the same girl and see if she doesn’t cry claiming sexual harassment.


21 posted on 02/18/2011 11:11:40 AM PST by struggle ((The struggle continues))
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To: BenLurkin

I’m still waiting to find out if the butt drag is a legitimate wrestling move.


22 posted on 02/18/2011 11:12:21 AM PST by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: BenLurkin

A Russian and Ole the Norwegian wrestler were set to square off for the Olympic Gold Medal. Before the final match, the Norwegian wrestling coach came to Ole and said, “Now, don’t forget all the research we’ve done on this Russian.. He’s never lost a match because of this ‘pretzel’ hold he has”. Whatever you do, do not let him get you in that hold! If he does, you’re finished’. Ole nodded in acknowledgment.

As the match started, Ole and the Russian circled each other several times, looking for an opening. All of a sudden, the Russian lunged forward, grabbing Ole and wrapping him up in the dreaded pretzel hold. A sigh of disappointment arose from the crowd and the coach buried his face in his hands, for he knew all was lost.. He couldn’t watch the inevitable happen.

Suddenly, there was a scream, then a cheer from the crowd and the coach raised his eyes just in time to watch the Russian go flying up in the air. His back hit the mat with a thud and Ole collapsed on top of him making the pin and winning the match.. The crowd went crazy. The coach was astounded.

When he finally got his wrestler alone, he asked, “How did you ever get out of that hold? No one has ever done it before!”

Ole answered, “Vell, I vas ready to give up ven he got me in dat hold, but at da last moment, I opened my eyes and saw dis pair of testicles right in front of my face...I had nuttin’ to lose so wid my last ounce of strength I stretched out my neck and bit dose babies just as hard as I could.”

So the trainer exclaimed, “That’s what finished him off!”

“Vel not really. You’d be amazed how strong you get ven you bite your own nuts!”


23 posted on 02/18/2011 11:14:35 AM PST by ErnBatavia (It's not the Obama Administration....it's the "Obama Regime".)
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To: BenLurkin

The guy is obviously a very committed Christian.

The girl is obviously a very talented wrestler.

I don’t see any reason the two can’t co-exist. He made his decision; she’s made hers. Both took courage, conviction, and sacrifice. I can find ground to respect them both.


24 posted on 02/18/2011 11:16:41 AM PST by IronJack (=)
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To: dangerdoc

“I’m still waiting to find out if the butt drag is a legitimate wrestling move.”

There is an opportunity to invent a new move, the v@g-drag.


25 posted on 02/18/2011 11:23:59 AM PST by Conan the Conservative (Crush the liberals, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the hippies.)
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To: BenLurkin

My take:

Men should not fight women. Boys should not be trained to fight girls.


26 posted on 02/18/2011 11:31:07 AM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: struggle

Crotch grab and hoist the same girl and see if she doesn’t cry claiming sexual harassment.

<><><><><<>

Moronic. Or you could just wrestle the girl without all of the flippin melodrama.

The kid did what he thought was right, but we cannot seem to leave it at that. Hell, the father of the girl even offered words of respect for the kid’s decision.


27 posted on 02/18/2011 11:42:40 AM PST by dmz
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To: Tublecane
Oh, and also grappling with girls is unseemly.

So is grappling with boys. I consider wrestling to be unseemly, period.

28 posted on 02/18/2011 11:42:48 AM PST by 3niner (When Obama succeeds, America fails.)
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To: Tublecane

If the girl has talent, she might be able to beat a few 8,9, and 10th grade boys in her weight class. Even a below average 11th & 12th grade male wrestler will easily dispatch her. Most boys improve over the course of high school; she’s already peaked in 9th grade, and will never be able to beat the older boys.


29 posted on 02/18/2011 11:43:31 AM PST by MayfairFly ("Your total ignorance of that which you profess to teach merits the death penalty.")
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To: BenLurkin

Ok, then let boys play on the girls BB team I say.


30 posted on 02/18/2011 11:49:03 AM PST by DManA
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To: BenLurkin

I made it to state one year, as a senior in H.S. I guarantee you I would NOT have risk my years of hard work and a state championship to let some girl have the win. I would have punished her - in the hopes of her never, ever, ever wanting to wrestle again.

If they want to wrestle, let the girls start their own league.


31 posted on 02/18/2011 11:58:27 AM PST by pitviper68
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To: ErnBatavia

Checkout this KENS-TV video tribute and you'll get a taste of what we missed since he spent the bulk of his amazing career in San Antonio and not his hometown Houston.

Genuinely funny, with a Texas wit that was biting and honest, friends and colleagues say Cook was a larger-than-life figure who commanded attention. What I have always admired about the pre-politically correct sports writers is they didn't sugarcoat the truth as they saw it, they just gave it you. Cook was one of the best and most honest.

And, of course, he was very funny.

The story of the "Iron Claw" with Fritz Von Erich is a classic. I couldn't find the video, but I did see a clip of Cook telling the story (at the four-minute mark), and it's hilarious. The short version is when he was interviewing the wrestler live on the air, Von Erich decided to grab Cook across the forehead to demonstrate the great wrestling hold he invented. He squeezed so hard that Cook was about to pass out.

In self-defense, Cook grabbed Von Erich with his own claw. He grabbed a little lower than the forehead, however, ... if you know what I mean. For the record, the below-the-waist claw is apparently more painful than the forehead claw.

32 posted on 02/18/2011 11:58:44 AM PST by Responsibility2nd (Yes, as a matter of fact, what you do in your bedroom IS my business.)
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To: MayfairFly
If the girl has talent, she might be able to beat a few 8,9, and 10th grade boys in her weight class. Even a below average 11th & 12th grade male wrestler will easily dispatch her. Most boys improve over the course of high school; she’s already peaked in 9th grade, and will never be able to beat the older boys.

She beat some 10th and 11th graders on the way to making the state tournament. If she is able to stay at the 112-pound weight class she will have plenty of opportunities to continue to win.
33 posted on 02/18/2011 12:02:19 PM PST by drjimmy
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To: BenLurkin

You gotta remember Ben, some men/boys still value their masculinity. Just because the “women’s lib” movement feminized much of the country, doesn’t mean that every male bought the bait.

In my experience as a former college wrestler, it would be extremely rare (i.e. so rare that the story makes the newspaper) for any female to beat a post-pubertal male in wrestling, unless of course, he wasn’t much of a male.


34 posted on 02/18/2011 12:08:08 PM PST by Neoliberalnot ((Read "The Grey Book" for an alternative to corruption in DC))
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To: DManA

“Ok, then let boys play on the girls BB team I say.”

That’s more like it. Generally, I don’t think men and women need to be in organized sports with eachother after a certain age. The sexes should be complimentary, not competitive. But as far as non- or minimal-contact sports are concerned, it’s not a big deal.


35 posted on 02/18/2011 12:26:00 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: BenLurkin

I know some people would say that the answer here is to let girls wrestle girls. I’m not comfortable with that either. The thought of some “girl” putting a move on my daughter is just as bad as a guy doing it, if not even more nauseating. If I had a daughter who wanted to fight, I guess I’d lean toward martial arts, for self-defense.


36 posted on 02/18/2011 12:29:08 PM PST by married21 (As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: BenLurkin

My take is that Eric Mandel has some sand in his vagina.


37 posted on 02/18/2011 12:31:16 PM PST by Gaffer (My t)
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To: BenLurkin

seems like the effetes of the left are in ridicule mode.


38 posted on 02/18/2011 12:33:33 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: MayfairFly

Well, good on you for hinting that, hey, up to the point that she is no longer competitive, let her compete.

The undercurrent in this thread cracks me up, though. Apparently the only spot high school boys DON’T want to put their hands of similarly aged girls is the wrestling mat. Any and everywhere else, they dream about it.


39 posted on 02/18/2011 12:34:37 PM PST by dmz
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To: artificial intelligence
I think it is dad’s living via their children and having them do sports traditionally for one sex or the other...

This and the fact that families are smaller, often only 1 child. I find it amusing when the Colonel-Daddy (an un-reconstructed male chauvenist in his day) gets blessed with a girl and he suddenly becomes a champion of total sexual equality so that his girl can go to a military academy & enjoy the same life he did.

40 posted on 02/18/2011 12:36:14 PM PST by Tallguy (Received a fine from the NFL for a helmet-to-helmet hit.)
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To: Persevero
Men should not fight women

Wrestling isn't fighting. If it were, women would have a better chance of winning.

41 posted on 02/18/2011 12:38:31 PM PST by xone
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To: Persevero
Men should not fight women

Wrestling isn't fighting. If it were, women might have a better chance of winning.

42 posted on 02/18/2011 12:39:11 PM PST by xone
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To: Jonty30
We shouldn’t normalize that it’s ok to hit women,

There is no legal 'hitting' in wrestling. I've seen situations where your 'ever' certainly didn't apply as well.

43 posted on 02/18/2011 12:41:10 PM PST by xone
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To: pitviper68

You would have “punished” her?


44 posted on 02/18/2011 12:42:29 PM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: xone

Whatever.

Mixed gender wrestling still normalizes that it’s ok to get physical with women and that should not be encouraged.


45 posted on 02/18/2011 12:45:11 PM PST by Jonty30
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To: DManA
Add a height limit and that would be another avenue for competition. You wouldn't (shouldn't) have to worry about spiteful boys inflicting physical injury on their female opponents.
46 posted on 02/18/2011 12:46:40 PM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: 3niner

47 posted on 02/18/2011 12:56:19 PM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: Jonty30
Whatever.

Thanks for acknowledging your lack of knowledge on the sport.

Mixed gender wrestling still normalizes that it’s ok to get physical with women and that should not be encouraged.

I don't think HS girls should wrestle against males. But since it isn't illegal if the girls want to take their lumps, I'm ok with that.

48 posted on 02/18/2011 12:58:15 PM PST by xone
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To: pitviper68

I guarantee you I would NOT have risk my years of hard work and a state championship to let some girl have the win. I would have punished her - in the hopes of her never, ever, ever wanting to wrestle again.

<><><><><

And boy o boy howdy, that would have made you feel like a real man, eh? Intentionally inflicting injury such that she would never do that again, huh?

On one hand, we have a real man (the kid who didn’t wrestle due to his convictions - whether I agree with them or not) and then we have you, the kind of man who relishes teaching women a lesson when they go places you don’t think they should go.


49 posted on 02/18/2011 1:03:10 PM PST by dmz
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To: xone

I knew you don’t hit in Greco-Roman style wrestling.

That is beside the point. It still normalizes physical combat contact between males and females.


50 posted on 02/18/2011 1:51:21 PM PST by Jonty30
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