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(Vanity)Handgun Purchase with a new twist
The Devils Lair | 1/27/11 | JerseyDvl

Posted on 02/27/2011 2:26:27 PM PST by JerseyDvl

I always find the process of purchasing a weapon interesting since it is a right guaranteed to all citizens assuming they are not felons, drug addicts, illegal aliens, domestic abusers, or mentally unstable....supposedly.

My experience this time around, which was my 5th, seemed to be different in a few ways and I wantd to share it and solicit opinions from my favorite 2nd ammendment defenders.


TOPICS: Hobbies; Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: 2nd; amendment; banglist; constitution
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Hello everybody, I hope that you don't mind a vanity in regards to my latest handgun purchase. I saw that the S&W Sigma series .40 was selling for $299, far below the price of any other .40 that I had looked at, so I gave it a buy.

For the first time, I was wait-listed and it took me a week to get approved when it had never taken more than 20 minutes in the past. But aside from the annoyance, I exercised pateience and picked my firearm up after a brief wait.

I like the gun and although it as not as smooth as my Beretta 92fs(which is a 9), I like it, especially for the price. Not to mention, it makes bigger hole and will be the first thing I reach for if anyone choose to invade my humble abode.

The thing that intrigued me was the existence of a small envelope in the box with the shell of a bullet that was test fired. It was not something included with the Beretta which I believe was manufactured in Italy. It has all the gun and inspector information as well as a line that reads:

RIFLING CHARACTERISTICS: 5 RH

Can someone tell me if this is done to register our firearms to a database that will identify the unique rifling of each bullet fired?

If so, has it helped in the war on crime and do you believe it is a good practice?

I always appreciate the feedback of FR's extensive collection of Constitutional scholars. Thanks in advance for any and all replies.

-JD

1 posted on 02/27/2011 2:26:32 PM PST by JerseyDvl
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To: JerseyDvl

It sounds like they’re building a DB. Didn’t know Texas did that. And did not think it was a national requirement. But then again, I haven’t purchased a firearm in some time. I might end up losing it in a tragic boating accident like all the others.


2 posted on 02/27/2011 2:31:55 PM PST by AFreeBird
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To: JerseyDvl

I bought my first striker fired pistol, also a Sigma .40, a couple years ago. Except for the trigger—price was nice—I liked it so much I got the Ruger SR9 last December.
It came with a fired cartridge. Some states require that, believe Ruger does it for all its pistols now.
Btw, the trigger on the S&W gets better with use.


3 posted on 02/27/2011 2:33:21 PM PST by tumblindice
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To: JerseyDvl

I think this is done in Kalifornia...and I thought there was an extra ‘charge’ to have this test fire done.

My assumption was that there is indeed a database of test fires for all weapons legally sold in Kalifornia.


4 posted on 02/27/2011 2:35:05 PM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: JerseyDvl
I hope that you don't mind a vanity in regards to my latest handgun purchase.

You'll get huge waves of hate on this website by starting a gun thread. You'll be sorry.

I just crack me up. Seriously - I believe I've heard someone else on this website say that some manufacturers are including a fired casing with the gun for those states that require it. If your state doesn't, toss it, or keep it and reload it. As far as the indication about rifling and twist, every ballistics lab in the world has that information about pretty much every gun ever made, especially the new ones, so I'm not sure why they would have included it. It's kind of redundant.

5 posted on 02/27/2011 2:38:03 PM PST by Hardastarboard (Bringing children to America without immigration documents is child abuse. Let's end it.)
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To: JerseyDvl
I'd like to find a nice slide gun that shoots .22magnum.

BTW, I accidentally bought three boxes of .22WRF thinking they were .22mag. It seems they're not. Ok, so, will they shoot in my .22mag Marlin semi-auto or Ok in my Winchester bolt action .22?

Thanks in advance.

6 posted on 02/27/2011 2:38:22 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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That is my understanding, too. Certain states may require the collection of a fired case.
I picked up a new Heritage Arms revolver on Friday and there was a fired case inside the packaging.


7 posted on 02/27/2011 2:39:40 PM PST by Rio
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To: JerseyDvl

I believe most of my guns had it on the paperwork someplace with a name like “check round.” It never occured to me that it might be for a balistics profile. But, if it is, it has to be an unbelievable paperwork and physical evidence nightmare. Also, I belive that the balistics profile changes as you fire more and more rounds. How different can each new gun be from the guns turned out on the same machines?


8 posted on 02/27/2011 2:43:07 PM PST by Gen.Blather
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To: JerseyDvl

I bought a Sigma .40 two years ago and yes, mine also had the envelope with the fired casing as well. I live in Wisconsin and as far as I know, there’s no state requirement. I just assumed that it’s S&W standard practice and thought nothing of it.


9 posted on 02/27/2011 2:46:05 PM PST by creeping death
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To: ReverendJames

From what I understand, .22 WRF ammo WILL fit in a .22 Magnum chamber, but NOT the other way around. Hopefully, someone else here can confirm, as I am not 100% certain on this.


10 posted on 02/27/2011 2:48:07 PM PST by deoetdoctrinae (Gun-Free zones are playgrounds for felons)
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To: JerseyDvl

<< The thing that intrigued me was the existence of a small envelope in the box with the shell of a bullet that was test fired. >>

A few of the states require it, so all (I’m not aware of any exceptions) gun manufacturers automatically include it on all the guns they sell. I believe that in the states that require it, the casing must be sent to some state agency at the time of purchase. Otherwise you are the only one who has it.

Change out your firing pin and extractor and the “fingerprint” on the casing is useless. Fire a few hundred rounds and the firing pin and extractor will start altering the marks that are left. it’s a big joke, but it’s designed to make life more difficult for the law-abiding gun owner.


11 posted on 02/27/2011 2:49:18 PM PST by Klaatu Barada Nikto (Government Axiom: Minimum Requirements = Maximum Achieved)
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To: JerseyDvl

I got a few guns over 20 yrs old that a fired case came with them so not new I dont think maybe for some brands. Astra 9mm was the first I got with a fired case I guess to show firing pin strike and how the case looked after firing that the chamber was in spec and stuff. By the way Astra went out of business 20 some odd years ago lol


12 posted on 02/27/2011 2:49:18 PM PST by Lees Swrd ("Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe and preserve order in the world as well")
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To: ReverendJames
No, you can't use .22 WRF ammo in a .22 WMR firearm. I'm sure a local gun shop would offer you fair value for the ammo, though.

As for the rifle you seek, I think the only slide-action .22 Magnum on the market at this time is made by Henry.

13 posted on 02/27/2011 2:51:10 PM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: JerseyDvl
Can someone tell me if this is done to register our firearms to a database that will identify the unique rifling of each bullet fired?

Yep, that's exactly what was done.

Obviously the firearm has been mistreated and should be serviced by an expert gunsmith. I recommend a full barrel polish using a microfine diamond hone. It will remove flaws in the rifling and increase accuracy and muzzle velocity. Additionally, fitting and polishing the moving parts (like extractor, ejector and bolt face, among others) will enhance function and reliability. Have at it!

14 posted on 02/27/2011 2:51:47 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Sarah and the Conservatives will rock your world.)
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To: JerseyDvl

The 5 RH Is five groves right handed twist (I assume)

The packet with the expended shell is in lots of firearms these days when they are sold new as many states require them.

Thankfully the state I live in (Nevada) does not so I just toss them out.


15 posted on 02/27/2011 2:51:47 PM PST by eXe (Si vis pacem, para bellum)
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To: JerseyDvl

Buy ALL your guns from private individuals.
Even at gun shows if you purchase from a citizen you need not tell the gubmint.
Look in your local penny saver or wherever but if the gub mint knows then they always will know.


16 posted on 02/27/2011 2:51:55 PM PST by Joe Boucher ((FUBO))
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To: Charles Martel

Most manual action .22 magnums will work OK with the WRF. It has been a long time but if memory serves there is a tiny difference in diameter and the magnum case is longer but I know I have fired WRF in magnum rifles with no problem

Of course the WRF will not have enough power to operate a semi-auto.


17 posted on 02/27/2011 3:10:16 PM PST by yarddog
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To: Charles Martel
Ok, but can I use .22 WFR in a gun that uses .22LR?

As to the .22mag gun, I'm looking for a pistol. I have a .22mag rifle by Marlin. Nice shooter.

18 posted on 02/27/2011 3:20:20 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: ReverendJames

A .22 mag is both too large and too long to fit into a .22LR chamber.

There are some .22 revolvers which have a cylinder for each. The tiny difference in the bullets diameter does not seem to hurt accuracy too much.

In short if you have a Ruger Single Six with both cylinders, the WRF and Magnum will both work in the same cylinder. Neither will fit the .22LR cylinder.

I am not basing this on theory. I have fired lots of WRF in magnum chambers.


19 posted on 02/27/2011 3:28:07 PM PST by yarddog
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To: JerseyDvl

A number of states (MD and NY come to mind) require a fired case to be submitted for every new handgun sold. It is not a national requirement, but some manufacturers include it in all guns. I know Smith does.

NM doesn’t require it, and I drop it down the access pipe to my septic tank. If they want it, they can go fish.


20 posted on 02/27/2011 3:34:07 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Klaatu Barada Nikto
I believe that in the states that require it, the casing must be sent to some state agency at the time of purchase.

That sure is a joke. Go to the range and pick up a casing of the same caliber and send that in.

21 posted on 02/27/2011 3:40:15 PM PST by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/28/08 and why?)
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To: yarddog

Ok, I understand that. I have both kinds of rifles. My question is: can I shoot a .22WRF in a rifle chambered for .22LR?


22 posted on 02/27/2011 3:40:32 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: ReverendJames
can I shoot a .22WRF in a rifle chambered for .22LR?

No, sorry.
23 posted on 02/27/2011 3:45:26 PM PST by verum ago (Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!)
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To: TigersEye

The gun shop sends it.


24 posted on 02/27/2011 3:47:25 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: ReverendJames

Check to see if Rossi still makes the slide action rifle you are looking for


25 posted on 02/27/2011 3:48:29 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Obama. Chauncey Gardiner without the homburg.)
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To: ReverendJames

iirc, the wrf is longer than a .22lr and probably will not chamber correctly. I’d be reluctant to try to fire in a .22 mag. best thing to do is put on a shelf and find a friend with a winchester Model 90 in .22 wrf or a model 62 in .22wrf.


26 posted on 02/27/2011 3:48:54 PM PST by ol' hoghead (He is not here; for he is risen.)
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To: ReverendJames

My post 19 said clearly that you cannot use a WRF in a rifle chambered for .22LR.

There is no danger at all in firing a WRF in a magnum chamber. The WRF is a much lower pressure round. I am going on memory and could be wrong but I think the WRF uses bullets with a .224 diameter. They are pure lead and often shoot extremely well in .22 Mag guns which I think use a .223 diameter, same as many centerfire .22’s.

I once did a “kitchen table” rechambering of my old Remington 514 to WRF. It worked and was far more accurate than it was in .22LR but that actually was a bit dangerous.


27 posted on 02/27/2011 3:56:38 PM PST by yarddog
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To: yarddog

Very interesting info. Thanks yarddog.


28 posted on 02/27/2011 3:59:31 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: ReverendJames
As to the .22mag gun, I'm looking for a pistol.

The Kel-Tec PMR-30 looks interesting. Thirty rounds in a single magazine that fits in the grip!

29 posted on 02/27/2011 4:00:10 PM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: eXe
The 5 RH Is five groves right handed twist (I assume)

5 inches for 360° of twist, however many grooves there are. It's easy to count grooves, but it's a bit harder to measure the twist rate (though a marked cleaning rod will do that just fine.)

30 posted on 02/27/2011 4:05:47 PM PST by Greysard
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To: Tijeras_Slim

Wut? Everybody here is saying that they are getting it and it is up to them to send it to the state.


31 posted on 02/27/2011 4:06:09 PM PST by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/28/08 and why?)
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To: yarddog
Sorry, but this is what I read from your post #19

"A .22 mag is both too large and too long to fit into a .22LR chamber."

My question is: I have .22WMR ammo. Since the diameter is the same but the round is shorter can I still fire it in a .22mag rifle, or, can you fire it in a .22LR rifle? While waiting for some answers I pulled one of each round from a box and noticed that the .22WRF is shorter. Can it still be fired in a .22mag semi-auto rifle? It is appearing from yours and other posters that it can be used in my Marlin .22mag. I just spent $30 for three boxes and can't take the back even though the salesperson said they were .22mag.

Anyway, I appreciate all the help.

32 posted on 02/27/2011 4:17:39 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: Charles Martel

Nice looking and not too expensive. Thanks!


33 posted on 02/27/2011 4:20:29 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: Charles Martel; ReverendJames

wiki:

.22 WRF ammunition is periodically offered by commercial makers for use in the old guns.[1] It can be fired in any rifle chambered for the more powerful .22 WMR.[1]


34 posted on 02/27/2011 4:22:15 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: yarddog

except for the brand spankin new keltec pistol, there is no such thing as a 22wmr semi auto. IIRC.


35 posted on 02/27/2011 4:24:16 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: mamelukesabre

Just found a website that featured the exact brand of ammo I bought. The bottom line of the article said you can’t use it in a rifle chambered for .22WRM because the .22WRF uses JHP’s. Not sure why but I have JHP’s in .22WRM specifically for the larger varmints that come up my way (coyote and bobcat).


36 posted on 02/27/2011 4:25:34 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: yarddog

I think you are confusing 22WMR and 22WRF. They are not the same. WMR is to WRF what 22long is to 22short.


37 posted on 02/27/2011 4:26:11 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: TigersEye

You are not understanding. The gun comes from the factory with a spent cartridge IN A SEALED ENVELOPE. The gun dealer sends THE SEALED ENVELOPE to the appropriate state agency. The gun owner will never see it unless he lives in a state that doesn’t require it. In that case, the SEALED ENVELOPE is left with the gun...because there is no place to send it to.


38 posted on 02/27/2011 4:28:50 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: ReverendJames

I think your error is you think they are the same diameter. Both the case and bullet for the .22 mag are larger than a .22 LR.

If you measure the case for a .22WRF and a .22Mag also known as a .22MRF, there probably isn’t any difference tho I think the WRF may be something like a thousandth of an inch larger. It doesn’t really matter as the difference if any is too small to matter. On the other hand a .22LR is about 3 thousandths of an inch smaller in diameter than the magnum. That is enough difference to matter especially since the mag is much longer too.

A .22 long Rifle will fit loosely into either a WRF or WMR chamber and might even fire. If it does the case will split and probably throw powder back in your face.

On the other hand neither a WRF or WMR will not fit into a .22 LR chamber at all.


39 posted on 02/27/2011 4:29:42 PM PST by yarddog
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To: ReverendJames

nonsense

I have lots of 22WMR ammo. some of it is hollow point and some of it isn’t.


40 posted on 02/27/2011 4:33:02 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: mamelukesabre

I guess I’m not understanding it because some posters have said the opposite.


41 posted on 02/27/2011 4:34:27 PM PST by TigersEye (Who crashed the markets on 9/28/08 and why?)
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To: mamelukesabre

No I am not confusing the WRF and WMR. There have been several autoloading rifles chambered for the magnum. I know off hand of two. One made by H&R and another made by Heckler and Koch.

There may be WRF’s with jacketed bullets but I have never seen one. All I have ever seen use a lead bullet with a flat nose.

I have never seen a WMR with anything but a jacketed bullet tho the jacket is very thin.


42 posted on 02/27/2011 4:35:24 PM PST by yarddog
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To: mamelukesabre

I figured you could use it. I’m just wondering if CCI is covering themselves. Do you use it in a rifle or handgun? The WRF is a bit shorter than the standard WRM


43 posted on 02/27/2011 4:37:35 PM PST by ReverendJames (Only A Painter Or A Liberal Can Change Black To White.)
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To: JerseyDvl

No 5RH is just a type of rifleing all hand guns of that make and model well have 5RH rifleing. One would need a bullet fired from that gun to may be match it to that gun.

Rifling changes a bit with every shot, to speed that up run some bore polish thru the barrel and after 20 30 times most likely they well not match. It well show 5RH rifling but there could be thousands of guns with 5RH rifling.

And if one needs to change it really fast run steel wool thru it more then once but you could expect some barrel damage I wouldn’t recommed steel wool except in a emergency.


44 posted on 02/27/2011 4:43:13 PM PST by riverrunner
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To: mamelukesabre

There used to be an AMT 22 Mag auto. Can’t recall what it was called.


45 posted on 02/27/2011 5:17:23 PM PST by jboot
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To: JerseyDvl

I don’t know what state you live in, but in my state there is no waiting whatsoever. No background checks either. fill out a form for the gun dealer to put in his/her book, and you are good to go.


46 posted on 02/27/2011 5:56:59 PM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: JerseyDvl
I'm happy with what I did; Buy a Sigma for cheap, shoot the hell out of it, trade it back in for money paid on a new M&P.

The Sigma competes in the affordable protection end of the market. The M&P competes well with anybody...

47 posted on 02/27/2011 6:42:16 PM PST by Last Dakotan (Hunting - the ultimate in organic grocery shopping.)
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To: All

There are too many people to reply to individually but I want to thank everyone for their replies.

I have to believe that my new .40’s ballistics are in some kind of database and I am split on how I feel about it:
On one hand I feel as if anyone who purchases such a weapon is in effect “trackable” and being watched. On the other hand, I don’t plan on going on a rampage and if this db helps catch such a erson, it seems reasonable.

Am I simply falling into the slippery slope with the latter reasoning?


48 posted on 02/28/2011 8:51:01 AM PST by JerseyDvl (Sometimes the road less traveled.... is less traveled for a reason.)
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To: mamelukesabre

Though I registered for FR while in the peoples republic of NJ, I have since moved to TX. I have made a purchase each year for the past 4 years and each time it was no more than a 20 minute wait.

Think the “wait-list” that I had to endure was due to the current regime in any way. I am not the conspiratorial type but it did get me thinking about the possibility with “Project Gunwalker” and this being a border state.


49 posted on 02/28/2011 8:57:19 AM PST by JerseyDvl (Sometimes the road less traveled.... is less traveled for a reason.)
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To: Last Dakotan

The M&P is one to keep an eye on. They are gaining in popularity in the ISPC shooting competitions amazingly fast. I like to look up the numbers of each brand and type that are entered in that contest every year to see what the real pros prefer to shoot. M&P is the new kid on the block and seems to be really taking off. I’ve never shot one but they gotta be impressive to increase their numbers in ISPC like they have in such a short time. Time will tell if they are “flash in the pan”.


50 posted on 02/28/2011 10:47:41 AM PST by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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