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Taxing the Miles You Drive. GPS to Track and Record All Vehicles?
yahoo/ac ^ | 2-2-09 | Sherry Tomfeld

Posted on 03/25/2011 4:18:33 PM PDT by stillafreemind

Remember when smokers begged for people to be a little understanding? Remember when smokers warned that there would be a tax that ALL people would have to pay on something they held dear? Well, I think the GPS tax for tracking and taxing every mile you drive just may fit that bill.

This tax, like the cigarette smokers tax, will have devastating consequences on the poor and middle income people. With a tax on every mile we drive, not to mention tracking information on every mile we drive, are we seeing the "hope" and "change" that Obama and the democrats were talking about?

(Excerpt) Read more at associatedcontent.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat; Miscellaneous; Travel
KEYWORDS: economy; gas; gastax; mileage; oil; oregon; taxes
Apologize for posting such an old article, but I knew I had read about this before. This was in the pipeline for over 2 years. Shame on them all.
1 posted on 03/25/2011 4:18:37 PM PDT by stillafreemind
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To: stillafreemind
There were warnings loooooooong before the cigarette smokers started crying:

. To detail the particulars comprehended in the general terms, taxes, duties, imposts and excises, would require a volume, instead of a single piece in a newspaper. Indeed it would be a task far beyond my ability, and to which no one can be competent, unless possessed of a mind capable of comprehending every possible source of revenue; for they extend to every possible way of raising money, whether by direct or indirect taxation.

Under this clause may be imposed a poll tax, a land tax, a tax on houses and buildings, on windows and fireplaces, on cattle and on all kinds of personal property. It extends to duties on all kinds of goods to any amount, to tonnage and poundage on vessels, to duties on written instruments, newspapers, almanacks, and books. It comprehends an excise on all kinds of liquors, spirits, wines, cider, beer, etc., and indeed takes in duty or excise on every necessary or conveniency of life, whether of foreign or home growth or manufactory. In short, we can have no conception of any way in which a government can raise money from the people, but what is included in one or other of these general terms.

We may say then that this clause commits to the hands of the general legislature every conceivable source of revenue within the United States, Not only are these terms very comprehensive, and extend to a vast number of objects, but the power to lay and collect has great latitude; it will lead to the passing a vast number of laws, which may affect the personal rights of the citizens of the states, expose their property to fines and confiscation, and put their lives in jeopardy. It opens a door to the appointment of a swarm of revenue and excise collectors to prey upon the honest and industrious part of the community, [and] eat up their substance

BRUTUS, The New-York Journal of December 13, 1787


2 posted on 03/25/2011 4:24:37 PM PDT by Huck (Fools make feasts and wise men eat them - Poor Richard)
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To: stillafreemind

We had this proposal come before the Oregon legilature where it was defeated. Here is the letter I wrote at the time.

O-DOT Plus GPS Equals KGB

Victor Sheymov entered Eighth KGB Directorate in 1971. When he escaped U.S.S.R. in 1980, he directed KGB cipher communications worldwide, and as such was the highest-ranking intelligence official to defect.

Victor’s first obstacle for executing escape plans was contacting a Known Intelligence Official (KIO). He circumvented multi-level surveillance preventing KIO contacts. KGB tactics included agents posing as foreigners, permanent listening and optical devises in restaurants and hotels, and stationary surveillance by Seventh Directorate “traffic officers” or agents in covert stations with powerful optics.

Elaborate, labor-intensive methods proved effective because the Soviet Union restricted foreigner’s travels. Those from NATO countries received special attention, and qualified for up to sixteen surveillance teams, and for planted vehicle homing devices. Restricted travel meant direction-monitoring towers provided real time vehicle locations.

The KGB would have benefited enormously from Oregon Department of Transportation (O-DOT) 21st century technology placing GPS monitoring devices in every vehicle. The devices with computers provide complete travel histories. They enable real time and historical vehicle collocations. The KGB could have greatly enhanced KIO, and key employee surveillance with reduced human resources.

The GPS, lauded nationwide, allows charging tax by mile instead of charging by amount of gas used, so low mileage and high mileage vehicles pay equivalent amounts. However, this approach contradicts policies to conserve fossil fuels.

Just because you are not paranoid, doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you. Is this comprehensive government intrusion into our lives warranted? Victor escaped the Soviet Union, but where do we go?


3 posted on 03/25/2011 4:27:13 PM PDT by Retain Mike
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To: stillafreemind
Control-freak government's wet dream: to be able to track your every move in real time.

They can have this when all elected and non-elected government employees and officials wear webcam/microphones 24/7 so we can monitor them and make sure they're being good, too.

4 posted on 03/25/2011 4:32:56 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun." -- Barry Soetoro, June 11, 2008)
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To: Retain Mike

We already pay by the mile when we drive and pay taxes on the fuel we buy. If the proposal is to add yet another punitive tax then I say that instead of paying in cash, which is becoming unstable, we pay it in the form of a more fungible commodity, like lead.


5 posted on 03/25/2011 4:35:53 PM PDT by MeganC (NO WAR FOR OIL! ........except when a Democrat's in charge.)
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To: stillafreemind

Why don’t they just put GPS collars on us all? Run them the same way self winding watches do. That way a LEO has any questions, he can scan the collar memory and download all your movements a la KGB/East Germany People’s Paradise.


6 posted on 03/25/2011 4:42:21 PM PDT by Leisler (Our debts are someone's profit. Follow the money, the vig.....)
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To: MeganC

Isn’t it nuts? We would be penalized for getting ourselves to our job. Now that’s positive reinforcement. Another type of “wealth redistribution”. If you’ve got a job, dang it, you’d better help those coming up behind. Social Justice!!!! Yes We Can!

OH yeah - on the other hand, how dare you not take public transportation that doesn’t exist.


7 posted on 03/25/2011 4:48:49 PM PDT by Bluebird Singing
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To: Leisler

We should eat little GPS chips and taxed every time he sh*t one of them out.


8 posted on 03/25/2011 4:52:48 PM PDT by schwingdoc
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To: stillafreemind

I’ll just post this each time I see this article or something like this...

So here we are, looking at a mileage tax. It’s very emotional, since it squarely attacks one of our major freedoms in the US, which is the ability to get in our cars and drive around without ANYONE knowing what we’re doing. We can even drive cross-country and it’s likely that no one will know we ever left home, if we pay cash the whole way and stay clear of places (like motels) where they require ID. So, I want to take a calm and measured look at this.

In my case, based on my income (assuming, of course, it continues), my debts (very small, just a house payment at 20% of my take-home, and my cash at hand (plenty), I figure that I can pay whatever tolling rates they want, without barely noticing. And, if they did implement this scheme, it would almost certainly clear the roads of traffic, something that I would like (although others would have a tough time affording to drive on those clear roads - after all there is a reason why they’d be clear). In other words, from a purely selfish standpoint, I should support this scheme...but I don’t.

So why not? In a perfect world, where Atlas DOESN’T have to shrug and where everyone acted as finely tuned robots, nothing could be better than pricing road travel to assure the exact same level of traffic at 4:30 in the morning as 4:30 in the afternoon...and the same traffic at 5 AM Sunday, as 5 PM Friday. We would simply get the best use out of our roads. That is why this idea sits well at CATO and Heritage...where very well-paid, pointy-headed guys simply want to be able to drive home after work without having to “fight the traffic”. But, of course, it’s not that simple.

So, let’s step back and look at why we might want to impose a Vehicle Mileage Tax (VMT). I can think of several reasons:

1) There are two many cars on the road at a given time (i.e., rush hour).

2) We are importing too much oil.

3) We are not collecting enough revenue to fix and expand our roads.

4) People are driving cars that are too big

5) We are emitting too much carbon

6) Driving without restrictions simply represents too much freedom for a modern, progressive, society.

7) We want to sell-off our roads to someone with lots of cash, to pay down the national debt.

So, you step back and try to figure out how to address the above and look at the options.

Option 1: Increase revenue enough enough money to keep up with highway needs

Option 2: Increase revenue enough to seriously cut down on road travel and provide extra money for social programs.

Option 3: Control the movements of people, and allow those movements to be monitored...also pay back debts to other countries.

You find that an increase of the gas tax will help with everything except #6 and #7, which is controlling freedom and paying our debts. Even with a high gas tax, people will still drive where they want, when they want. If money is just needed for highway repair and expansion, an increase of the gas tax of, maybe, 25 to 50 cents per gallon will easily cover it. If we want to cut way back on imported oil, then 2 to 4 dollars per gallon of tax increase will cover it. That same increase (2 to 4 dollars per gallon) will also provide PLENTY of revenue to repair and expand highways...and the expanding part will not even be necessary with fuel prices that high (i.e., there will be a LOT less driving).

So we come down to #6 and #7. #6 (i.e., monitoring of peoples’ movements) is obvious - once you have GPS, then THE G-MAN will know where you are at any time. For #7, you’re getting into how to payback our creditors (mainly the Chinese and Japanese, but also much of Europe and US banks). The idea is that once a mileage-based tolling system is in place, the revenue can be sent overseas and our banks...which may prevent WW3 (particularly after we finish disarming). The amount of money that can be generated...if priced for maximum revenue, is likely 30 to 50 cents per mile (average)...or close to a trillion dollars per year.

To be honest, I have no clue what the long-term intentions are, I only look at what COULD be done.

Needless to say, this crap needs to be stopped PRONTO, as we have much better options than giving government control over where we drive, what we drive, and when we drive.


9 posted on 03/25/2011 5:02:54 PM PDT by BobL (PLEASE READ: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2657811/posts)
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To: MeganC

if something like this was forced upon the masses of america, i would be in full support of all out removal of every elected political official and every appointed official. Time to scrap the whole mess and start over from scratch. If this is what Soros wants, he would not survive it. Dont ask for the things you desire in life, sometimes you do not like how they taste


10 posted on 03/25/2011 5:05:18 PM PDT by Michigan Bowhunter
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To: MeganC

THAT was MY first thought....we ALREADY pay taxes on GAS for this VERY reason.....they really do think we are stupid.


11 posted on 03/25/2011 5:09:14 PM PDT by goodnesswins (Unlike the West, the Islamic world is serious.)
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To: stillafreemind
It's discrimination against people who live in big states. I know people who live on ranches in West Texas and New Mexico who have to drive 25 miles to buy a loaf of bread!

Some ranchers fly around on their ranches...wonder if they will tax that, too. If not now, they will later.

Obama doesn't care what we think. He only cares about what he wants to do TO us.

I'm moving to Rhode Island...or getting a motor bike.

12 posted on 03/25/2011 5:09:34 PM PDT by lonestar (It takes a village of idiots to elect a village idiot.)
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To: Retain Mike

There’s no place left to go but here; and Obama & his commie administration is fast making that stink. - So, here we stand, or fall.


13 posted on 03/25/2011 5:11:10 PM PDT by Twinkie (WHERE ARE OBAMA'S RECORDS? ALL of them.)
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To: stillafreemind

If they can track you with GPS, they can do a lot more than simply tax the number of miles you drove. They will know where you went, when you went there, how long you stayed, and how fast you drove.


14 posted on 03/25/2011 5:14:50 PM PDT by Fresh Wind (TOTUS knows how to give a speech. Obama knows how to read.)
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To: stillafreemind

15 posted on 03/25/2011 5:22:31 PM PDT by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Fresh Wind

I guess speeding tickets will start showing up in your mailbox, or worse yet the fines will be drafted out of your bank account.


16 posted on 03/25/2011 5:23:39 PM PDT by Sybeck1 (Memo to Mitt Romney, just go away.........)
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To: Fresh Wind

I totally agree! I think I fear the info they will garner more than the supposed gas tax itself. What freedom?


17 posted on 03/25/2011 5:26:17 PM PDT by stillafreemind
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To: stillafreemind

No problem....
http://www.jammer-store.com/gps-blockers-jammers.html


18 posted on 03/25/2011 5:26:41 PM PDT by bPaul (Hope this help?)
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To: stillafreemind

Taxing incomes allows the government to destroy financial privacy. If we allow government to require us to have a GPS device for recording our driving, no matter how much we are assured that it will not be used to violate our travel privacy, as sure as the sun rises and sets, sooner or later some future version of it will be used to do just that!

(For example, when we start down this road, the taxation device will only record mileage. However, soon somebody will lobby for being taxed at a different rate for driving on special roads. At that point, the device has to record you were on that that road. There are all kinds of ways that once such a device is available and required that either some bureaucracy or legislature will find it easy to justify “mission creep”, and poof there goes your ability to drive where you please without anyone being able to know.)


19 posted on 03/25/2011 5:28:06 PM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: Michigan Bowhunter
i would be in full support of all out removal of every elected political official and every appointed official. Time to scrap the whole mess and start over from scratch.

FRiend, I'm there now...
20 posted on 03/25/2011 5:33:38 PM PDT by TSgt (Colonel Allen West & Michele Bachman - 2012 POTUS Dream Team Ticket!)
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To: stillafreemind

This isn’t anything like the cigarette tax. If it were, you wouldn’t be allowed to drive, while in your vehicle.


21 posted on 03/25/2011 5:40:35 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: Michigan Bowhunter
if something like this was forced upon the masses of america, i would be in full support of all out removal of every elected political official and every appointed official. Time to scrap the whole mess and start over from scratch. If this is what Soros wants, he would not survive it. Dont ask for the things you desire in life, sometimes you do not like how they taste

Agreed. I think we need to do this to restore the Constitution.
22 posted on 03/25/2011 5:43:12 PM PDT by Nowhere Man (General James Mattoon Scott, where are you when we need you? We need a regime change.)
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To: stillafreemind
You gotta' hand it to the Demos/liberals/nanny-staters: they are creative at coming up with new taxes. I propose a tax on being a registered Democrat or every time you vote for one.
23 posted on 03/25/2011 5:47:03 PM PDT by jeffc (Prayer. It's freedom of speech.)
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To: Sybeck1
I guess speeding tickets will start showing up in your mailbox, or worse yet the fines will be drafted out of your bank account.

Yes, and as you might recall, part of Obamacare is direct government access into your bank account. The pieces of the puzzle fit together perfectly.

24 posted on 03/25/2011 5:47:07 PM PDT by Fresh Wind (TOTUS knows how to give a speech. Obama knows how to read.)
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To: stillafreemind
"With a tax on every mile we drive, not to mention tracking information on every mile we drive, are we seeing the "hope" and "change" that Obama and the democrats were talking about?"

A gas tax is a tax on every mile you drive. If you use more gas (via driving more or bad gas mileage) you pay more tax and are presumably paying in accordance with your use of the highways and damage to the ecology (I didn't say I believe this BTW). But you see, much like the cigarette tax, the more you tax something the less revenue you get as people will conserve in various ways.

So the spendaholics have got to figure out a way for you to pay taxes not connected to what you drive, these people just don't stop.

25 posted on 03/25/2011 5:47:59 PM PDT by WHBates
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To: MeganC

Now let’s be environmentally sensitive here. The EPA has a serious concern about lead. We should consider FMJ instead.


26 posted on 03/25/2011 5:58:04 PM PDT by Retain Mike
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To: BobL
If money is just needed for highway repair and expansion, an increase of the gas tax of, maybe, 25 to 50 cents per gallon will easily cover it.

And there lies the rub. Once this idea is beat back then the "obvious" solution is to do just that...increase the gas tax. The idea is to frighten then relieve, even if the relief will piss many off. Yard Sale politics at its basic, pure level.

27 posted on 03/25/2011 6:08:49 PM PDT by torchthemummy (The Audacity Of Truth Trumps All)
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To: goodnesswins
we ALREADY pay taxes on GAS for this VERY reason

As motor vehicles become more efficient, the revenue from gasoline taxes decreases. Let's say you buy a gallon of gasoline for $4.00 of which $2.00 is tax. That's $0.05 per mile in a Prius as opposed to $0.20 per mile in a Suburban.

28 posted on 03/25/2011 6:10:42 PM PDT by reg45
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To: stillafreemind

Feareth not.

GPS jammer stock will go through the roof. And everyone will have one.


29 posted on 03/25/2011 6:17:14 PM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: reg45

YES, I know....same goes for cigarettes....as States have programs for smoking cessation....and then complain that their tax revenues drop...and btw, my “efficiency” in gas hasn’t dropped in 10+ years....that’s how long we’ve had our Ford F100 P/U


30 posted on 03/25/2011 6:25:17 PM PDT by goodnesswins (Unlike the West, the Islamic world is serious.)
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To: stillafreemind
It's feasible that, literally, every breath you take can be taxed according to your calculated impact on all infrastructure. For example, you enter a public building, and you increase the load on the heating and cooling system. You flush the toilet, you consume resources. Your account can be debited accordingly.

Ridiculous? Of course it is. That's why it's really gonna suck when crap like this starts kicking in.

31 posted on 03/25/2011 6:35:34 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (You is what you am.)
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To: stillafreemind

The last time I heard, we already had a “fuel” tax. Seems to me that is sufficient without all this added BS. Double Taxation.

Fry any POL who advocates such dribble.

Bye Bye Bye Dummies.


32 posted on 03/25/2011 6:48:15 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one)
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To: Da Coyote

What if they outlaw ‘em? They outlawed radar jammers. ...just saying that layers of contingency plans might be good.


33 posted on 03/25/2011 7:01:10 PM PDT by familyop ("Dry land is not just our destination, it is our destiny!" --"Deacon," "Waterworld")
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To: stillafreemind
Read up on Agenda 21 folks, this is part of the plan. It will drive people from rural areas into the festering urban enclaves where they can be controlled.

Now, who makes a faraday cage which will block the GPS transciever in a vehicle?

34 posted on 03/25/2011 7:18:40 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: stillafreemind

A per-mile gas tax would adversely effect southern state, but most particularly western states where you have to have a car to get around because everything is so spread out. Most of NYC wouldn’t have to pay this tax because they don’t have any cars!! It’s simply not fair.


35 posted on 03/25/2011 10:13:09 PM PDT by stansblugrassgrl (PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!! YEEEEEHAW!)
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To: stillafreemind

A per-mile gas tax would adversely effect southern state, but most particularly western states where you have to have a car to get around because everything is so spread out. Most of NYC wouldn’t have to pay this tax because they don’t have any cars!! It’s simply not fair.


36 posted on 03/25/2011 10:13:14 PM PDT by stansblugrassgrl (PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!! YEEEEEHAW!)
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To: Smokin' Joe

>> Read up on Agenda 21 folks, this is part of the plan. It will drive people from rural areas into the festering urban enclaves where they can be controlled.

Won’t happen. The roots of Liberty are deeper than most realize, and I’m willing to bank my life on it — and I mean that sincerely.


37 posted on 03/25/2011 10:22:14 PM PDT by Gene Eric (*** Jesus ***)
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To: stillafreemind

The right to travel is a part of the “liberty” of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. So much is conceded by the Solicitor General. In Anglo-Saxon law, that right was emerging at least as early as the Magna Carta. [n12] Chafee, [p126] Three Human Rights in the Constitution of 1787 (1956), 171-181, 187 et seq., shows how deeply engrained in our history this freedom of movement is. Freedom of movement across frontiers in either direction, and inside frontiers as well, was a part of our heritage. Travel abroad, like travel within the country, may be necessary for a livelihood. It may be as close to the heart of the individual as the choice of what he eats, or wears, or reads. Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of values. See Crandall v. Nevada, 6 Wall. 35, 44; Williams v. Fears, 179 U.S. 270, 274; Edwards v. California, 314 U.S. 160. “Our nation,” wrote Chafee,

has thrived on the principle that, outside areas of plainly harmful conduct, every American is left to shape his own life as he thinks best, do what he pleases, go where he pleases.

Kent v Dulles, 357 US 116, 125 decided June, 1958


38 posted on 03/25/2011 10:38:49 PM PDT by djf (Dems and liberals: Let's redefine "marriage". We already redefined "natural born citizen".)
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To: Retain Mike; All

It is the surveillance aspect of the installation of MONITORING DEVICES in all vehicles that really concerns me.. THIS HAS TO BE STOPPED.

Incredibly ND Democrat KENT CONRAD IS PROMOTING THIS. It is amazing that someone from ND would be endorsing this kind of tax and government tracking of every individual.

IS THIS EVEN CONSTITUTIONAL???


39 posted on 03/25/2011 10:42:59 PM PDT by bushwon ("If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait till it is free"--PJ O'rourke)
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To: stillafreemind

I would bet there would be many waivers given to override transmission of the data by gadget fix or even crooked government employees. Government insiders and poor people on food stamps and other handouts woould be on waivers if for no other purposes than to keep the votes coming in.


40 posted on 03/25/2011 10:58:33 PM PDT by noinfringers2
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To: stillafreemind

I would bet there would be many waivers given to override transmission of the data by gadget fix or even crooked government employees. Government insiders and poor people on food stamps and other handouts woould be on waivers if for no other purposes than to keep the votes coming in.


41 posted on 03/25/2011 10:58:47 PM PDT by noinfringers2
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To: reg45

et’s say you buy a gallon of gasoline for $4.00 of which $2.00 is tax. That’s $0.05 per mile in a Prius as opposed to $0.20 per mile in a Suburban.


The gas tax still works. A Prius is MUCH lighter than the suburban and thus would cause much less wear and tare on the road ways. Get back to me on raising the gas tax when all funs from said taxes go back in to the roads the tax was collected for in the first place.

In Minnesota it goes in to a “transportation fund” it’s used for anything remotely close to transportation. Bike paths, HOV lanes, buses.. Once in a while some of it actually goes in to the roads.


42 posted on 04/05/2011 7:19:28 AM PDT by cableguymn
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