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Neanderthals and Early Humans May Not Have Mingled Much
NY Times ^ | May 9, 2011 | Nicholas Wade

Posted on 05/10/2011 5:06:10 AM PDT by Pharmboy

An improvement in the dating of fossils suggests that the Neanderthals, a heavily muscled, thick-boned human species adapted to living in ice age Europe, perished almost immediately on contact with the modern humans who started to enter Europe from the Near East about 44,000 years ago. Until now bones from several Neanderthal sites have been dated to as young as 29,000 years ago, suggesting there was extensive overlap between the two human species. This raised the question of whether there had been interbreeding between humans and Neanderthals, an issue that is still not resolved. RSS Feed RSS Get Science News From The New York Times »

But researchers report that tests using an improved method of radiocarbon dating, based on a new way to exclude contaminants, show that most, and maybe all, Neanderthal bones in Europe are or will be found to be at least 39,000 years old. Thomas F. G. Higham, a specialist in radiocarbon dating at Oxford University, and Ron Pinhasi, an archaeologist at University College Cork in Ireland, have dated the bones of a Neanderthal child less than 2 years old whose remains were found in the Mezmaiskaya Cave in the northern Caucasus Mountains. A second Neanderthal baby, found in a lower layer in the cave, was previously dated back 29,000 years.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Science
KEYWORDS: godsgravesglyphs; humans; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals
I have thought for many years that our species wiped them out where they found them. This new and more exact dating method adds credibility to this scenario.
1 posted on 05/10/2011 5:06:15 AM PDT by Pharmboy
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To: SunkenCiv; blam; thefactor

Cro-Magnon-out-clubbing, ping...


2 posted on 05/10/2011 5:08:00 AM PDT by Pharmboy (What always made the state a hell has been that man tried to make it heaven-Hoelderlin)
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To: Pharmboy
Wiping out a related group is easy ~ show up with a new kind of headcold, maybe some TB, or possibly pneumonia.

You'll take over the cave without firing a shot.

Neanderthals appear to have lived in smaller groups than our own folks ~ which suggests they had a serious problem with infectious disease.

3 posted on 05/10/2011 5:10:35 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
I always assumed that Neanderthals were foragers while Cro-Magnons actually cultivated crops.

Sodbusters vs. Free-rangers?

Ants vs. grasshoppers?

4 posted on 05/10/2011 5:30:50 AM PDT by ZOOKER ( Exploring the fine line between cynicism and outright depression)
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To: Pharmboy
Neanderthals probably lived in the low rent district, demanded entitlements and called Early Humans ‘racist’ or something
5 posted on 05/10/2011 5:32:26 AM PDT by SMARTY (Conforming to non-conformity is conforming just the same.)
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To: ZOOKER
Agribusiness was initiated within the last 10,000 years or so ~ Cro-Magnons ate lots of meat, and picked berries, nuts and roots of different kinds.

This business of being farmers is quite new.

6 posted on 05/10/2011 5:33:53 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Pharmboy

Yeah, look at the history of violent contact between tribes of modern humans - and now contemplate the level of violence when there actually is a significant genetic difference between the groups.


7 posted on 05/10/2011 5:35:53 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: dirtboy
Exactly.

The anthropologists twist themselves into knots to try and explain everything in the most non-violent manner possible.

And the primatologists were like that also until women like Jane Goodall lived amongst apes and reported back that they were quite violent.

8 posted on 05/10/2011 5:56:45 AM PDT by Pharmboy (What always made the state a hell has been that man tried to make it heaven-Hoelderlin)
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To: Pharmboy

Native Americans were hardly the peace-loving enviro utopians as some try to portray them. They were extremly violent towards each other as well. No particular knock on them, that’s just human nature deep in the genes - a fear of someone who isn’t part of your tribe, bred that way for good reason - because in the past, someone who wasn’t part of your tribe often represented a mortal threat.


9 posted on 05/10/2011 6:01:45 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: muawiyah

The disease factor is the item I favor with my non expert opinion. So many animals of the Pleistocene disappeared, that that to me, I have to speculate that the Neanderthals succumb to the catastrophe as well. Something in the genetic makeup made them more vulnerable than the Cro Magnums that replaced them...


10 posted on 05/10/2011 6:02:46 AM PDT by LRS ("This is silly! It can't be! It can't be!!" "Oh yes it is! I said you wouldn't know the joint.")
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To: All
The Basic Non Evolution of Modern Man. The fact that we are not related to hominids other than possibly by similar design parameters, and that there is nothing on this planet which we could be descended from by any process resembling evolution.
11 posted on 05/10/2011 6:09:34 AM PDT by wendy1946
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To: dirtboy
Native Americans were hardly the peace-loving enviro utopians as some try to portray them. They were extremly violent towards each other as well. No particular knock on them, that’s just human nature deep in the genes - a fear of someone who isn’t part of your tribe, bred that way for good reason - because in the past, someone who wasn’t part of your tribe often represented a mortal threat.

It wasn't fear, it was practicality. When your tribe expands beyond the supporting capacity of your territory, the only way to avoid starvation is to invade your neighbor's territory.

As far as how Cro-mags killed off Neanderthals, a moderate advantage in speed or throwing ability translates into a BIG military advantage. If you can creep up to your enemies, throw spears at them from longer range than they can throw back, and then run away faster than they can follow, it would not take long to wipe them out.

12 posted on 05/10/2011 6:10:12 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: PapaBear3625
When your tribe expands beyond the supporting capacity of your territory, the only way to avoid starvation is to invade your neighbor's territory.

And you either take that territory or solve your overpopulation problem trying.

13 posted on 05/10/2011 6:13:18 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: PapaBear3625
I remember reading how appalled whites were when they saw the way Natives treated their prisoners (either whites or other Natives).

That THEY were shocked is saying something ... coming from Europeans THEMSELVES survivors of decades of internecine, abjectly bloodthirsty religious wars and wars of succession.

14 posted on 05/10/2011 6:17:21 AM PDT by SMARTY (Conforming to non-conformity is conforming just the same.)
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To: LRS
"The disease factor is the item I favor"

That makes sense. It was certainly important in the killing of many American Indians. It seems likely that infectious diseases to which they had no resistance swept through North America after the arrival of Columbus, destroying entire tribes and leaving survivors lost and vulnerable.

15 posted on 05/10/2011 6:19:06 AM PDT by Savage Beast (Truth is the first casualty of American journalism.)
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To: Pharmboy

Neantherdals are going to be needing some reparations, and interest owed over 39,000 years.

I am going to be needing my customary 30 percent cut.


16 posted on 05/10/2011 6:25:04 AM PDT by Jonty30
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To: SMARTY

Bloodthirsty religious war is a leftist fantasy. The evolutionary purpose of religion is it helps a tribe win at warfare, especially if it is a superior religion. Envy is the root cause of tribal warfare. Leftists are driven by envy so they can’t handle envy being the problem so they blame the solution.


17 posted on 05/10/2011 6:33:14 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: Pharmboy
When a Neanderthal moved next door the property values would decline and the other 'early humans' would often sell at below value. They tried desegregation in the 70s but even that didn't work.

Early humans? Is that like a morning person?
18 posted on 05/10/2011 6:38:19 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We deserve the government we allow.)
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To: Reeses

Does that mean that in wars, the side that wins has the superior religion? How does that work when the warring factors are of the same religion?


19 posted on 05/10/2011 6:38:51 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
Having a superior religion provides an edge increasing the probability of survival. Atheists are at a disadvantage and tend to get killed off. However it is just one factor. There is little evidence Neanderthals were religious while Cro-Magnons were.
20 posted on 05/10/2011 6:50:40 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: stuartcr

If both tribes have the same quality of religion then it is not a factor in who wins. This situation is very rare though.


21 posted on 05/10/2011 6:52:56 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: Reeses

Why does having a superior religion provide an edge over atheists? As I asked, what about wars between people of the same religion?

What kind of religious evidence would neanderthals provide?


22 posted on 05/10/2011 7:56:58 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: Reeses

Revolutionary war, most civil wars, war of roses...just a few where both sides were the same religion, weren’t they?


23 posted on 05/10/2011 8:01:01 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: Pharmboy

No bars back then.


24 posted on 05/10/2011 8:50:15 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Pharmboy

Frank and Jim found a dog turd and convinced the New York Times that neanderthals had Greyhound race tracks.
“The neanderthals kept betting on weiner dogs and got wiped out.”


25 posted on 05/10/2011 8:53:56 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Pharmboy
Not mingle much?


26 posted on 05/10/2011 9:33:41 AM PDT by USMCPOP (Father of LCpl. Karl Linn, KIA 1/26/2005 Al Haqlaniyah, Iraq)
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To: Pharmboy

I’m convinced that Neanderthals survived to modern times in the Middle East, possibly as a hybrid with apes.


27 posted on 05/10/2011 10:39:01 AM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: stuartcr
Why does having a superior religion provide an edge over atheists? ... What kind of religious evidence would neanderthals provide?

The old saying "There are no atheists in foxholes" sums it up. Atheists are more likely to crack under pressure while religious people have an extra optimism, confidence, bravery, focus, solidarity, and are more willing to die to save their tribe. Religion also acts as a conduit for passing on culture and knowledge.

Religious artifacts and burying their dead a certain way such as pointing East or West with items for an afterlife are evidence of religion. The Cro-Magnons did this. There is little evidence the Neanderthals did.

Just about every non-cosmetic human trait can be traced to an advantage in tribal warfare. Walking on two legs isn't an advantage. Being able to carry weapons and having lubricated armpits that respond to stress is. From a human evolutionary perspective, religion is simply another trait selected for on the battlefield.

28 posted on 05/10/2011 11:09:39 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: Reeses

How do you know athists are more likely to crack under pressure?

So does all this mean that the winner always has a superior religion?


29 posted on 05/10/2011 11:22:13 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
Revolutionary war, most civil wars, war of roses...just a few where both sides were the same religion, weren’t they?

Yes but civil wars are not as common and are a relatively new invention. In that case religion is not a significant factor in deciding the outcome.

Despite claims of the envious left, religion is not usually the root cause of murder, looting, destruction, and war. Envy is. Religion helps win at war. Muslims envy and therefore hate the West. Their envy is not because of their religion. All sound religions insist that envy is an unacceptable practice, and for good reasons.

30 posted on 05/10/2011 11:24:21 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: stuartcr
How do you know athists are more likely to crack under pressure? So does all this mean that the winner always has a superior religion?

No the winner doesn't always have the superior religion. It is only one of many factors. Most people that crack and commit suicide are not religious.

The main reason NASA selected only Christians to walk on the moon is they did not want someone that might crack under pressure and lose it on the radio, which would probably have ended NASA funding. The atheist Soviets had this disadvantage and never walked on the moon.

31 posted on 05/10/2011 11:34:32 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: Reeses

We’ve been having civil wars since there were rulers.

What was the root cause of all that happened during the Great Schism, the 30yrs war, the French wars of religion or the Protestant Reformation?


32 posted on 05/10/2011 12:32:12 PM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr

All is vanity. Vanity leads to envy which leads to theft, destruction, murder, war, and voting Democrat. Envy is the driver of human evolution. Without it we would still be happily eating grubs from a stick.


33 posted on 05/10/2011 12:55:36 PM PDT by Reeses
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To: LRS
Here's a different approach. Let's say the Neanderthals had some tricks we don't know about and were so successful in their environment that the Cro-Magnons simply couldn't move into Europe until the Neanderthals up and died out suddenly.

One trick could have been use of vocalizations that controlled the game animals. Let's say that when they got hungry they popped in one of those nose whistles of theirs, blew it, and animals fell stunned at their feet.

34 posted on 05/10/2011 1:05:26 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Reeses

And vanity is a result of someone thinking their religion is superior to someone elses’.


35 posted on 05/10/2011 1:05:32 PM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr

Sometimes. But some religions ARE superior to others. This is determined in the crucible of war. If Pakistan nukes NYC in envy, their religion will have failed them, and they will be sent the ash heap of history.


36 posted on 05/10/2011 1:31:30 PM PDT by Reeses
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To: Reeses

If the superiority of a religion is determined in the crucible of war, how is it determined and by whom? Is it automatically the winner, the least casualties, best logistics? Does that follow through to smaller battalion or company size crucibles?

Who gets to determine whether a religion failed as a result of envy or some other reason...the winner?


37 posted on 05/10/2011 8:56:15 PM PDT by stuartcr
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To: Reeses
"There is little evidence Neanderthals were religious while Cro-Magnons were."

Years ago, I read about some neanderthal burials that contained red ochre, which had been deliberately added, and a large amount of pollen from flowers, plus some "grave goods." This suggested that some sort of ritual was involved; otherwise, why not just roll the body into a ditch?

Apparently, neanderthals weren't very artistic. They haven't found much in the way of paintings or sculptures that could be interpreted as spiritual - unlike Cro-magnon, but that doesn't mean neanderthals weren't religious.

Here's some additional info: Link

38 posted on 05/10/2011 9:53:42 PM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: Pharmboy; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; ...

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Thanks Pharmboy.

I'm amazed sometimes at the level of organization of the PR campaign directed at propping up the Replacement (master-race) model. Earlier this week I shared on FB an article about some newly found fossils of still another form of human, unearthed in Serbia I think it was, and now the article won't load for me (here).
The Neandertal Enigma
by James Shreeve

in local libraries
Frayer's own reading of the record reveals a number of overlooked traits that clearly and specifically link the Neandertals to the Cro-Magnons. One such trait is the shape of the opening of the nerve canal in the lower jaw, a spot where dentists often give a pain-blocking injection. In many Neandertal, the upper portion of the opening is covered by a broad bony ridge, a curious feature also carried by a significant number of Cro-Magnons. But none of the alleged 'ancestors of us all' fossils from Africa have it, and it is extremely rare in modern people outside Europe." [pp 126-127]
To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
 

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39 posted on 05/11/2011 1:26:31 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Thanks Cincinna for this link -- http://www.friendsofitamar.org)
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To: stuartcr

Religion just provides an advantage, does not guarantee anything. The God advantage works at all levels, nation, business, sports team, family, individual. If you have an alternate explanation why the first tribe to discover religion went on to take over the whole world I’d love to hear it. Those that conclude that religion is bad are cursed with several disadvantages in life.


40 posted on 05/11/2011 11:37:28 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: SunkenCiv

Neanderthals were early humans.


41 posted on 05/11/2011 12:32:13 PM PDT by LiteKeeper ("Who is John Galt?")
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To: LiteKeeper

Earlier, anyway. The irrational bias(es) against Neandertal which persists probably originated with Virchow:
The Future of the Past: Archaeology in the 21st Century The Future of the Past:
Archaeology in the 21st Century

by Eberhard Zangger

[W]hen the headteacher Johann Karl Fuhlrott discovered the bones of a Neanderthal in a cave near Dusseldorf in 1856... Rudolf Virchow, President of the Deutsche Gessellschaft fur Anthropologie... who personally promoted the principle 'always practise honesty and stand by the facts whatever happens' -- endorsed the interpretation that the Neanderthal was a bow-legged, Mongolian Cossack with rickets, who had been lucky enough to survive multiple head injuries, but who, during a campaign by Russian forces against France in 1814, had been wounded, and (stark naked) had crawled into a cave, where he had died. Thirty years passed before the specialists recognised their mistake. [pp 288-289]

42 posted on 05/11/2011 5:38:28 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Thanks Cincinna for this link -- http://www.friendsofitamar.org)
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To: Reeses

I wasn’t aware that the first tribe to discover religion went on to take over the whole world. Where can I find proof of this? Thanks in advance.


43 posted on 05/12/2011 6:15:25 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr

If Neanderthal Women looked like Helen Thomas this would explain it....


44 posted on 05/12/2011 12:32:57 PM PDT by GraceG
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To: stuartcr
I wasn’t aware that the first tribe to discover religion went on to take over the whole world. Where can I find proof of this? Thanks in advance.

Page 60 on covers it. Particularly read the second paragraph on page 62:

Supernatural selection: how religion evolved

45 posted on 05/12/2011 6:17:49 PM PDT by Reeses
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To: Reeses

How do you know Mr. Rossano is correct?


46 posted on 05/12/2011 7:52:28 PM PDT by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr

I don’t know with certainty that he is correct but he makes sense given the available circumstantial evidence. Some of that evidence is available in the living. For example from anywhere on Earth people are quarrelsome and have a remarkable ability to reject evidence in conflict with their already made up minds. Those talents are useful for catalyzing human evolution and for maintaining a religious faith.


47 posted on 05/13/2011 6:13:15 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: Reeses

While not proof, circumstantial evidence can be fun and useful, especially for college professors that write books.


48 posted on 05/13/2011 7:19:04 AM PDT by stuartcr
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