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John Demjanjuk found guilty of helping kill Jews in Nazi death camp
MSNBC ^ | 5/12/11 | AP

Posted on 05/12/2011 7:08:48 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden

MUNICH — A German court sentenced John Demjanjuk to five years in prison on Thursday for his role in the killing of 27,900 Jews at a Nazi death camp.

Lawyers for Ukraine-born Demjanjuk said they would appeal the verdict.

The Munich court found the 91-year-old guilty of being an accessory to mass murder as a guard at Sobibor camp in Poland during the Second World War.

Demjanjuk, who emigrated to the United States in the early 1950s, became a naturalized citizen in 1958 and worked as an engine mechanic in Ohio, had been exonerated in a separate Holocaust trial two decades ago in Israel. In that trial he was initially sentenced to death for being the notorious "Ivan the Terrible'' camp guard at Treblinka in Poland, but the ruling was overturned by Israel's supreme court after new evidence exonerated him.

Demjanjuk, who was once top of the Simon Wiesenthal Center's list of most wanted Nazi war criminals, said he was drafted into the Soviet army in 1941 then taken prisoner of war by the Germans.

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans
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I don't know how to feel about this. He may have been a guard there, but all of the evidence seems to be based on an ID card showing him as a guard. Even the FBI apparently at one point had questions about this card's authenticity.

The Holocaust was tragic indeed. However, if he was a Russian POW who was forced to either be a guard at this camp is be killed, is this something that he should do jail time for?

1 posted on 05/12/2011 7:08:51 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

But and However

Says it all about how you feel


2 posted on 05/12/2011 7:15:19 AM PDT by Carley (We will not tire. We will not falter. We will not fail. W, 9/20/01)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

I share your doubts and always have. And, as you say, the Holocaust was a horrible thing but I believe that there is probably a great deal of overreach in ferreting out the guilty. It is as though several people die as a result of eating spoiled food at a restaurant and the authorities set about to prosecute the busboy.


3 posted on 05/12/2011 7:18:32 AM PDT by davisfh (Islam is a mental illness with global social consequences)
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To: davisfh; All

I agree... This poor ole coot’s main sin is living too long. He’s been tried several times, including U S federal court in Cleveland where is was a retired auto worker. He said it was a case of mistaken identity. That yes, he was a guard, but no he was not a bad guy. He was forced by Nazis to work in the camp. I have followed the case and therefore have some doubts as to the validity of the “guilty” finding, but leave it to the Germans to take it out on this schlub to sooth their collective guilt. [Not defending him if he IS guilty - just as it is obvious that OJ was guilty and got away with it, this guy may have been at the wrong place at the wrong time and may be a scapegoat]


4 posted on 05/12/2011 7:21:53 AM PDT by shalom aleichem
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
What are they gonna do when he's finally dead of old age?

Prosecute his kids?

5 posted on 05/12/2011 7:24:26 AM PDT by Lazamataz (The Democrat Party is Communist. The Republican Party is Socialist. The Tea Party is Capitalist.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

If only the Germans went after their own war criminals with the vigor that they pursued the Ukrainian, Demjanjuk.


6 posted on 05/12/2011 7:26:44 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: davisfh

More like a “busboy” who daily reported to work knowing murder and cannibalism was going on in the kitchen - and he bussed tables under the stench of burning human flesh, death and decay.

But hey! Work is work, right?/s


7 posted on 05/12/2011 7:31:39 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: Carley
"Says it all about how you feel"

I don't get your point. I think another poster sums up some of the feelings I have. Has this guy been so vigorously prosecuted to salve the national guilt conscience of Germans? As another poster points out, it's funny they go after the Ukranian with such ferocity. The same tenacity they could have used to go after fellow Germans perhaps...
8 posted on 05/12/2011 7:32:06 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: dfwgator

German citizens are exempted from prosecution for NAZI collaboration in Germany. If Demjanjuk had become a German citizen instead of an American, he could not have been put on trial. The same exemption applies for Israeli citizens in Israel.


9 posted on 05/12/2011 7:34:30 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: allmendream

What could Demjanjuk do? If he somehow managed to escape the Nazis and return to the Soviet Union, they would have killed him, because Stalin’s policy was that any Red Army soldiers who were taken prisoner were traitors and subject to the death penalty.


10 posted on 05/12/2011 7:35:12 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

Well it wasn’t like he was an innocent busboy. He knew they were serving up death on an industrial scale. He may not have had many attractive options - but it wasn’t like he didn’t know what was going on.

That was my point.


11 posted on 05/12/2011 7:41:19 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: allmendream
"Well it wasn’t like he was an innocent busboy. He knew they were serving up death on an industrial scale. He may not have had many attractive options - but it wasn’t like he didn’t know what was going on."

And the same case could be made that all of the German citizens outside all of those death camps knew exactly the same thing. Only difference is that they weren't POWs forced into being a guard at the death camp. How many of those good German citizens were prosecuted for that knowledge?
12 posted on 05/12/2011 7:45:09 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: allmendream

There aren’t enough jail cells in the world to hold everyone who knew what was going on. Certainly the vast majority of Wehrmacht soldiers knew what was going on, but they weren’t prosecuted.


13 posted on 05/12/2011 7:45:11 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

They’ve gone after their own war criminals with a lot more vigor then, say, the Russians have over Katyn. But then again, they were under a lot more pressure from us than the Russians ever have been.


14 posted on 05/12/2011 7:46:03 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: PzLdr
They’ve gone after their own war criminals with a lot more vigor then, say, the Russians have over Katyn

That's setting a pretty low bar.

15 posted on 05/12/2011 7:46:50 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: shalom aleichem

Wasn’t he also tried, convicted in Israel?
His conviction was later overturned by the Israel supreme court and he was ordered released by the same.

I don’t believe there’s a time limit on justice, particularly for the crimes of The Holocaust, but I hope that this guy got a fair trial because it seemed that nobody could get a clear verdict.


16 posted on 05/12/2011 7:46:56 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: allmendream

The German guards who worked alongside Demjanjuk and any Jewish collaborators are exempt. Only the Slavs are prosecuted. Is that justice?


17 posted on 05/12/2011 7:49:19 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

The only good news here is that if this guy is past 90 then there’s gotta be few if any left to hunt down. This is been Israel’s and the Jewish disapora’s obsession for 70+ years now.

I’m sorry for the crudity, but it is time to move on. My grandpa stopped harboring grudges against Japanese people around 1980.


18 posted on 05/12/2011 7:49:28 AM PDT by mquinn (Obama's supporters: a deliberate drowning of consciousness by means of rhythmic noise)
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To: allmendream

I would agree if he were an SS member who volunteered to join the SS, and got assigned to the camp, that would be one thing. People knew when they joined the SS what they were all about. A German was not forced to join the SS, it was strictly voluntary.

Demjanjuk’s only choices were to be a guard, or get a bullet in the brain. I think that should be a clear distinction.


19 posted on 05/12/2011 7:50:29 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: mquinn

I am all for going after all legitimate Nazi war criminals, even if they’re over 100, Demjanjuk was not such a case. People still thought he was “Ivan the Terrible”, if he was never originally identified as him, he probably never would have gotten prosecuted again.


20 posted on 05/12/2011 7:52:35 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Carley
The war ended 66 years ago. The guy was drafted in 1941 at the age of 21, then was captured by the Germans and made to work at the camps. It's not like he was in any sort of decision-making, much less policy-making, capacity.

The people who were the policy-makers are dead at this point. There comes a time to move on.

21 posted on 05/12/2011 7:52:48 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: dfwgator

And under “Operation Keelhaul,” after the war, the Allies sent thousands of Eastern Bloc civilians and troops back to Stalin where they were often SHOT in front of their British truck drivers before getting off the trucks.

Many of those who knew where they were being sent, plunged their heads through the windows of the barracks in which they were housed and, pressing their throats against the broken glass, slashed their jugular veins, exsanguinating before their guards could react.

When he was with WERE in Cleveland, my late friend Mort Downey, Jr. did HOURS on the John D’s case, implicating the OSI division and Neal Shearer of the Justice Dept. in the persecution of the man, the forged ID card his primary evidence. John was even tried in an ISRAELI court and found not guilty of being Ivan the Terrible.

The moral is DON’T CHALLENGE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT as the truth is no longer a positive defense. If they want you, bend over and kiss your backside gooddbye.

Having said that, except for the DU trolls who lurk here and try to create trouble for FR, most all of us will soon find ourselves on Holder’s Hotsheet.


22 posted on 05/12/2011 7:56:43 AM PDT by Dick Bachert (2012 CAN'T COME SOON ENOUGH FOR ME. HOW ABOUT YOU?)
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To: FReepers
On FR Everyday?

Feed Your Passion

Donate

23 posted on 05/12/2011 8:05:07 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

The guy should have been executed!


24 posted on 05/12/2011 8:21:54 AM PDT by rawhide
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To: PapaBear3625

You are aware that he had the SS tattoo removed from under his arm. You are aware that he lied on his application to reside in the USA.

Guess some folks are more welcome here than others. But, however. Right!!!!!!!


25 posted on 05/12/2011 8:22:17 AM PDT by Carley (We will not tire. We will not falter. We will not fail. W, 9/20/01)
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To: rawhide

Do they have proof that he killed even one prisoner, or signed any orders authorizing the killing of any prisoners?


26 posted on 05/12/2011 8:27:24 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Carley
"You are aware that he lied on his application to reside in the USA."

I assume you are referring to him putting down his mother's wrong maiden name because he forgot what her real maiden name was so he just made up a common Ukranian name (Marchenko). I'm sure he regrets doing that now, because identifying her with that name has got him in all this trouble to begin with. That happened to be the same last name of Ivan the Terrible who it was originally assumed he was.
27 posted on 05/12/2011 8:43:55 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: SJSAMPLE; All

Well it looks like with the light sentence and all he was convicted of being an “accomplice” to the Holocaust by being a guard. Never mind he was a Russian POW impressed into service as a guard at the camp. Kurt Vonnegut was impressed into work details also when he was an American POW (see Slaughterhouse 5). Anybody still alive who “helped” the Third Reich is “guilty” of something, it seems (and except George Soros).


28 posted on 05/12/2011 9:05:14 AM PDT by shalom aleichem
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

When are the Germans going to indict Soros?


29 posted on 05/12/2011 9:09:48 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

This is just one more example of kicking NAZI’s. We did NOTHING to the Japanese emperor. We did NOTHING to any Soviets including the ones that starved the Ukraine. If we look back at Japan, there was just a hand full of high ups that were charged and punished. There were NONE in the Soviet Union. After about 30 years, do you really want to keep hunting and punishing Nazi’s that are now living an exemplary life? If they discovered Lamps made from Jews in his living room, well, OK, but as far as I know, there was NONE of that in this country. I would rather prosecute Bill Ayres or some Black Panthers or something than waste money on this. I’m sure there are some Viet Nam Vets that are hoping nobody looks into some of their activities during the war. War is BAD! Most people do things they can’t be proud of but are just trying to survive a ridiculous situation. I’m sure it was very tough to be a Nazi guard in a prison camp. Do you do what you are told, or do you risk being shot for treason? In war, many soldiers have the attitude that it sucks to be you. If you are looking for hero’s that stand against the powers, you will find them in the library with books about them and you can visit them in the cemetery. Bonhoeffer comes to mind. It’s great if you can do it, but most don’t. I suggest it was more like what we find in the movie, “The Reader”. What purpose is served by putting a law abiding citizen in prison for his last few years? If I was making a list of people needing prosecution, this wouldn’t even make my top 100. Half of Obama’s cabinet and most of his friends, however........


30 posted on 05/12/2011 9:11:49 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: Joe 6-pack

The Austrians allowed Kurt Waldheim to become their President (after he was Secretary General of the UN).


31 posted on 05/12/2011 9:17:35 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Dick Bachert

Great post. Thanks.


32 posted on 05/12/2011 9:29:20 AM PDT by Forgotten Amendments (I'd rather be Plaxico Burress than Sean Taylor)
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To: dfwgator

And we allowed Klaus Barbie and a bunch of SD types to work for us, get our protection, and escape with forged documentation. Demjanuk was real small fish.


33 posted on 05/12/2011 9:32:45 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
German citizens are exempted from prosecution for NAZI collaboration in Germany.

You should change your screen name. Sounds like you've had waaay more than enough beer already.

34 posted on 05/12/2011 9:33:33 AM PDT by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: chuckles

Scroll down to Neill Macaulay. He died in retirement after a long career as a professor @ UF.

http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/yanquifidelistas.html


35 posted on 05/12/2011 9:48:24 AM PDT by Forgotten Amendments (I'd rather be Plaxico Burress than Sean Taylor)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
German citizens are exempted from prosecution for NAZI collaboration in Germany.

Then maybe you could explain the German prosecutions of Friedrich Engel, convicted in 2002, Heinrich Boere, convicted in 2010, and Josef Scheungraber, convicted in 2009.

36 posted on 05/12/2011 9:51:07 AM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: chuckles

You are quite right.

It is arguable he deserves his punishment.

It is not arguable to claim he wasn’t aggressively pursued far out of proportion to the severity of his “crimes.” Certainly in comparison to the perpetrators of the Soviet and other Communist prison camp systems, which killed a multiple of those killed by the Nazis.

If the claims about his limited options at the time are accurate, I contend none except those who have been in a similar situation and refused to participate in evil have a moral right to condemn him. And my experience is that most of these people, those who manage to survive, don’t feel the need for condemnation of those who are less able to resist.


37 posted on 05/12/2011 9:55:37 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: dfwgator

A German was not forced to join the SS, it was strictly voluntary.

Not true.A family member was married to a man who was drafted into the SS at 16 and sent to the Eastern Front. There were many drafted to fill the ranks of the Waffen SS that was decimated in Russia


38 posted on 05/12/2011 10:00:14 AM PDT by gunner03
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To: shalom aleichem
That yes, he was a guard, but no he was not a bad guy.

Or as the Israelis put it, "So, he was Ivan the Not Quite So Terrible."

39 posted on 05/12/2011 10:03:04 AM PDT by blau993
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To: chuckles
Oh, don't forget that not only did we do nothing to Pol Pot, the Reagan administration and others officially sided with his regime in the UN.
40 posted on 05/12/2011 10:04:39 AM PDT by Forgotten Amendments (I'd rather be Plaxico Burress than Sean Taylor)
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To: gunner03

That’s true, but I tend to separate the Waffen SS from the “Death’s Head” SS units, by the end of the war, more than half in it weren’t even Germans.


41 posted on 05/12/2011 10:05:13 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: gunner03

The SS was purely voluntary early in the war. As the war ground on, however, SS units had to be replenished through the draft. Also, many of the Waffen SS units were raised in captive countries, and you could have a spirited debate over how “voluntary” some of the enlistments in those units were.


42 posted on 05/12/2011 10:06:25 AM PDT by blau993
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To: blau993; All

A topical movie about contemporary German attitudes is “The Reader” featuring Kate Winslet and Ralph Finnes.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0976051/

Re your comments, it brings to mind Sgt. Schultz of Hogan’s Hero’s fame (”I know nuzzink”)


43 posted on 05/12/2011 10:18:04 AM PDT by shalom aleichem
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To: Moltke; Bubba Ho-Tep
You didn't know? Almost all Germans received amnesty for NAZI collaboration soon after the war:
The German chancellor Konrad Adenauer was against denazification and granted amnesty to those involved in the Holocaust. Denazification was opposed by majority of German population at the time, and when West Germany was established in 1949, Adenauer made ending it one of his main priorities. Together with other German parties he passed a number of amnesty laws that overturned the process of denazification; he appointed a former Nazi official who had written commentaries on the racist Nuremberg Laws, Hans Globke, as his chief of staff in 1949; and he was pushing hard for the release of various war criminals. By January 31, 1951, the amnesty laws covered over 792,176 people. Those pardoned included people with six-month sentences, 35,000 people with sentences of up to one year and include more than 3,000 functionaries of the SA, the SS, and the Nazi Party who participated in dragging victims to jails and camps; 20,000 other Nazis sentenced for "deeds against life" (presumably murder); 30,000 sentenced for causing bodily injury, and 5,200 who committed "crimes and misdemeanors in office." By 1958 only a few of the original Nuremberg defendants were still in jail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification#Konrad_Adenauer_and_the_end_of_denazification


44 posted on 05/12/2011 10:57:42 AM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Sherman Logan

I’m not an expert on the evidence, but there is quite a bit of doubt that he was even a Nazi. If he really was a POW in Germany, what is all this about anyway? Israel let him go if I’m not mistaken. Even if that wasn’t true, there are many Nazi’s still alive in Germany that probably did more heinous things than he did as a guard. If he wasn’t Ivan the Terrible, then maybe he was just following orders to stay alive. Anyway, I just think it’s over kill. Even letting him go home, he is now tainted with something that he may not have done. He has spent the last 20 years of his life worrying that he may be executed for something he probably didn’t do.


45 posted on 05/12/2011 11:01:43 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: mas cerveza por favor

You still haven’t explained, then, the recent German prosecutions that I cited.


46 posted on 05/12/2011 11:23:17 AM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: chuckles

Those most anxious to pursue him in general seem to be liberals/leftist, apparently as part of their general quest to make “Nazi” a term of evil so egregious none other comes even close.

Which is more than a little silly. The Nazi ideology was perhaps more evil than any other that has gained significant power in human history, but they have a good deal of healthy competition in this field.

What I find odd about the liberal fixation on putting this old man and other old Nazis away is that liberals in general claim prison is, or should be, for rehabilitation, not punishment. That punishment never does any good.

Yet this old dude appears to have done an excellent job of rehabilitating himself, assuming he ever really needed it. AFAIK, nobody has ever claimed he led anything but an exemplary life from his arrival in the country to the time his legal troubles started.

So why the obsession with locking away a 91-year old man? Why should debated actions over a period of a few months more than 60 years ago outweigh a decent life of decades?

I suspect it is because liberals have gotten a great deal of mileage out of equating Nazism with the ultimate in human evil, then equating Nazism with conservatism and rightism.

They’re about to run out of victims to sacrifice on this altar and must take advantage of their few remaining opportunities.


47 posted on 05/12/2011 11:25:33 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: chuckles

Those most anxious to pursue him in general seem to be liberals/leftist, apparently as part of their general quest to make “Nazi” a term of evil so egregious none other comes even close.

Which is more than a little silly. The Nazi ideology was perhaps more evil than any other that has gained significant power in human history, but they have a good deal of healthy competition in this field.

What I find odd about the liberal fixation on putting this old man and other old Nazis away is that liberals in general claim prison is, or should be, for rehabilitation, not punishment. That punishment never does any good.

Yet this old dude appears to have done an excellent job of rehabilitating himself, assuming he ever really needed it. AFAIK, nobody has ever claimed he led anything but an exemplary life from his arrival in the country to the time his legal troubles started.

So why the obsession with locking away a 91-year old man? Why should debated actions over a period of a few months more than 60 years ago outweigh a decent life of decades?

I suspect it is because liberals have gotten a great deal of mileage out of equating Nazism with the ultimate in human evil, then equating Nazism with conservatism and rightism.

They’re about to run out of victims to sacrifice on this altar and must take advantage of their few remaining opportunities.


48 posted on 05/12/2011 11:27:29 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

Sorry. Sorry.


49 posted on 05/12/2011 11:28:03 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep; Moltke
Then maybe you could explain the German prosecutions of Friedrich Engel, convicted in 2002, Heinrich Boere, convicted in 2010, and Josef Scheungraber, convicted in 2009.

Friedrich Engel and Josef Scheungraber were investigated and first convicted in Italy for killing Italians. Engel was not imprisoned because of his age. Heinrich Boere was a Dutch citizen, convicted in Holland of killing Dutchmen, who fled to Germany after the war.

All these men were convicted of direct involvment in murder. Can you name a German-born, German citizen imprisoned for war crimes like Demjanjuk for being drafted as a camp guard?

50 posted on 05/12/2011 12:51:23 PM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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