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Is it "conservative" to send American jobs and technology to communist China?
("free trade" vanity)

Posted on 05/28/2011 8:43:11 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network

Once again, this week we see America declining again.

Our space program - once the finest in history, is dissolving, as our capability for manned space flights is brought to an end.

Now - our (second-best) fighter jet the F-35 is being criticized as too costly - after our finest one was already scuttled.

Our economy is shrinking. Our jobs are heading overseas, and our money is all flowing one direction - out of our country.

Funding the growth of everyone but the USA.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: asleep; china; denial
Yet ... conservatives;

Conservatives. Who with laser beam clarity recognized the geopolitical threat of the Soviet Union from the very start, and opposed the threat it posed to America with vigor;

Seem *oblivious* to Communist China.

It's really as if, conservatives wish with every fiber of our being if simply pretend what is happening is not happening, it will not be so.

When did this sort of willful cluelessness start?

When did conservatives become willfully naive?

Is not singing Kumbayah and imagining bad things aren't happening the province of the left?

What please, will it take to wake us up?

1 posted on 05/28/2011 8:43:14 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

Is it conservative to believe that you’re entitled to the business of your neighbour?


2 posted on 05/28/2011 8:52:01 AM PDT by Jason Kauppinen
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

What’s conservative is what’s based in liberty. What’s liberal is big government statism. What is driving money and/or jobs overseas’s is our big government reducing the liberty of anyone trying to create jobs; see Boeing and the National Labor Relations Board.

If we roll back taxes and regulations and forced unionization and frivolous law suits and other artificial liberal things that make American unattractive to business, then money and business would flood back in because without the liberalism, America is the best place on the planet to run a business.

It’s the liberalism that makes it otherwise.


3 posted on 05/28/2011 8:52:07 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (American Thinker Columnist / Rush ghost contributor)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
What makes you think Conservatives are responsible for this?

Last I saw it was this President who was making it even more difficult to operate and manufacture here, thus more attractive to have the manufacturing (and support) sent overseas.

Last I saw, a liberal President decided to make one of NASA's main objective scientific research to discover scientific achievements of Muslims, yet to cancel the programs for building replacements of the shuttle.

Last I saw it was this President who was spending us into greater and greater debt, and then selling it to China.

Last I saw it was this President who was pushing for the F-35 and other advanced fighters and bombers to be scuttled.

Last I saw it was this President who cut the guts out of our drilling for oil despite a court order to allow it to resume.

Last I saw it was this President who was pushing the EPA to declare some little lizard (i think) an endangered species in Texas oil lands, which would bring that to a halt.

Last I saw it was this President who... well , you fill in the blanks.

We conservatives aren't perfect, and we do need to hold our politicos feet to the fire. yes, some of those examples were helped along by RINOs, but I don't think Conservatism is to blame.

4 posted on 05/28/2011 8:56:48 AM PDT by theDentist (fybo; qwerty ergo typo : i type, therefore i misspelll)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

“What’s conservative is what’s based in liberty. “

-

Actually that is libertarianism.

I happen to be a small-l libertarian, which makes it even more puzzling to me, why so many otherwise brilliant, flag-waving SOBs on our side see nothing whatsoever wrong-headed with making the largest communist nation in world history - strong and powerful by sending them our once world leading industrial base.

Seems a bit like the medieval practice of “bleeding”.

Killing the patient, with the erstwhile treatment itself.

“Free trade” is national suicide. Whatever you may or may not think about unions - destroying America herself in a boneheaded tactic to damage unions, is just plain stupid.


5 posted on 05/28/2011 9:00:50 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (BUY AMERICAN. The job you save will be your son's, or your daughter's)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

if I am going to build something for sale I’ll do it where I can generate the most profit!

The only reason to build anything is for profit.

Never once durring my over 50 years in construction did I ever build anything because someone needed or wanted it, only because I was going to make a profit on it.

Other than profit you can go live under a bush or do your business there as far as I’m concerned!!!

Politics has nothing to do with it.


6 posted on 05/28/2011 9:02:55 AM PDT by dalereed
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To: Cringing Negativism Network; All
The plan, was/is created to step by step, break the power of the leading nation in this world.

It is Executed, with intent.

Answering to no one, working inside a arena with the media that hides the overt and the covert actions until well past engaging.

The part about borrowing billions to give away to other nations, and it is happening weekly if not daily, still: is absolutely mind boggling. Where is the outrage??? are we still on our blackberry, and IPhone, and Ipad and other entertaining outlets going to our death, and not noticing it?

No nation can withstand such malignant programs within their leadership and government.

God help America, God help us all. Without Thee we can do nothing.

7 posted on 05/28/2011 9:03:25 AM PDT by geologist (The only answer to the troubles of this life is Jesus. A decision we all must make.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

“national suicide”

Someone other than the property owner should have a say on who they sell factory equipment to?


8 posted on 05/28/2011 9:04:31 AM PDT by Jason Kauppinen
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
Whatever you may or may not think about unions - destroying America herself in a boneheaded tactic to damage unions, is just plain stupid.

Ah. The real reason for the vanity.

In simplest terms businesses move overseas because they cannot make close to the same profit here, if any at all, than they can over there. Killing unions, reducing taxes and stabilizing the business environment are things that could be done to entice businesses to stay in the US.

9 posted on 05/28/2011 9:15:45 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Socialism works great until capitalism starts to falter)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

Our problem is not China - or OPEC - or anyone else. Our problems are self inflicted. If we got government and liberalism out of the way the entrepreneurial and energy engines of this great economy would swamp anything that China or OPEC is trying to do. Their societies are not based in freedom and only we can stop us, they can’t. And our trade policies are NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER going to make their societies free.

China and OPEC and every other country is going to act in their best interests. Duh. The problem is, liberalism is not in our best interests and China is merely taking advantage of it.


10 posted on 05/28/2011 9:21:54 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright (American Thinker Columnist / Rush ghost contributor)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
Good question.

First of all, there are many thousands of Americans who would love to sit on an assembly line and put together electronic, household, or other devices...for a paycheck.

The problem is, U N I O N S. They invade the workplaces and demand an exhorbitant salary for the workers. The factory owner either lays people off to afford it, or, moves to a "right to work" state to avoid the union demands.
Something has got to give.
11 posted on 05/28/2011 9:31:21 AM PDT by FrankR (A people that values its privileges above its principles will soon lose both.)
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To: FrankR

Remove the unions and nothing changes... Many industries moving abroad were not heavily unionized. As long as living and other expenses are lower abroad western jobs will be moved abroad.

Even with taxes being the same it would still be cheaper to make things in the 3rd world. Saying that the West should have open borders and compete with the 3rd world for jobs is like suggesting Alaska can compete with Florida for beach tourism.

And that’s before we look at the various trade hindrances China and other nations employ to protect their industries. There is no such thing as a level playing field.


12 posted on 05/28/2011 9:41:48 AM PDT by LastNorwegian
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Hate to pick nits, but what’s ‘conservative’ is what’s in the Constitution. The power to raise tariffs is in there.

I believe the poster hit the nail on the head. Too many on our side of the aisle willing to pull the entire works down around us trying to get back at the unions. The unions, meanwhile have only become more powerful by burrowing into the public sector.

Classic case of cutting off our nose to spite our face. We’ll need an economy to rebuild at some point.


13 posted on 05/28/2011 9:45:40 AM PDT by CowboyJay
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To: theDentist

Blueprint for the destruction of this country.

What is so totally assinine is that we continue our immigration policy while sending jobs overseas. What do we need immigrants for?


14 posted on 05/28/2011 9:54:37 AM PDT by 353FMG (The M1911 is mightier than the sword.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

China is not the Soviet Union.

Also, if China didn’t exist, then many of the jobs “being shipped out” to China would simply go elsewhere anyway.


15 posted on 05/28/2011 10:07:46 AM PDT by PGR88 (I'm so open-minded my brains fell out)
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To: CowboyJay

“The power to raise tariffs is in there”.
This statement, while true, doesn’t exactly apply to this circumstance. The reason tariffs are in the Constitution is a matter of Federal preemption, so that there is a coherent national trade policy. Previously the colonies had their own trade policies with each other, as well as the rest of the world.

Protectionism is a generally political knee jerk reaction to protecting industries with organized labor or well-connected business owners, practiced by both parties. It unfortunately intensified and elongated the Great Depression. (Even with this the idiots reelected FDR, which leaves me gloomy about the Demagogue in Chief getting reelected)

What is Conservative is to lower federal corporate tax rates, fair treatment for income earned overseas, right to work status, and reasonable, not restrictive, environmental and industrial regulation. Lastly, China has artificially made their country more profitable in which to do business as a result of keeping their currency low, which makes exports from China profitable.


16 posted on 05/28/2011 10:24:51 AM PDT by LA Conservative (Defeat the Demogogic Party)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
What is driving money and/or jobs overseas’s is our big government reducing the liberty of anyone trying to create jobs; see Boeing and the National Labor Relations Board.

Illegal Immigration isn't helping either.
17 posted on 05/28/2011 10:35:55 AM PDT by SoConPubbie
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

Not every “free trade” agreement to come down the pike is in our national interest. particularly when it results in an overwhelming imbalance of trade i.e. China. We need to review every free trade agreement on the books as it relates to our national interest starting with the mother of all free trade agreements with China. We should keep the agreements that are beneficial or in the very least neutral to our interests and deep six the ones that are detrimental, back to China again. There is something to be said for the old way of doing things through bilateral trade agreements where the other side of the agreement danced to our tune because of our economic mass.


18 posted on 05/28/2011 10:52:13 AM PDT by chuckee
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

Globalism only works for the multinational elite - those “citizens of the world.” The rest of us are out on a limb of their whim.

The third world slave labor will be abused for only so long before they stop being slaves and chop their heads off.


19 posted on 05/28/2011 10:53:10 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: LA Conservative
"It unfortunately intensified and elongated the Great Depression."

Debatable. More likely Keynesian intervention preventing asset revaluation, and starving the private sector of capital. But even if so, during that time the US was a net exporter. No parallels with today's economy.

We absolutely need deregulation and tax reform. No argument there. But China can still incentivize to the point that their finished goods can be sold below US cost of production. So I think it's a bit naive to posit that US deindustrialization will not proceed barring some form of protectionism. Tariffs are clearly constitutional, and most of the jobs and businesses being moved overseas are NOT unionized.

Currency valuation is a red herring as it pertains balance-of-trade. If the Chinese revalue the RMB, their production costs go DOWN. It will also give them more purchasing power for them in resource markets, which means more PPI inflation from our perspective. In other words, it will drive US production costs UP at the same time. It's a wash, and a distraction from the real issues which are predatory Chinese trade practices, the US regulatory/tax environment, and what is increasingly an anti-US trade policy being put into practice by our own government.
20 posted on 05/28/2011 11:00:48 AM PDT by CowboyJay
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

communist china is an obvious threat to freedom loving people

they are also essentially slave labor... which is a threat to real labor anywhere in the world.

just let me know that we’re good with slavery and i’ll move on


21 posted on 05/28/2011 11:29:22 AM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

I don’t think it is fair to lump all conservatives in the same boat, but there are plenty of conservatives who will always choose their money over the interests of the United States and American people. They are ideologically wedded to Adam Smith and David Ricardo in the same way liberals are wedded to Marx and Engels. You can’t argue with a true believer.

What these clueless conservatives don’t get is that money and freedom don’t mean anything in the big scheme of things if you no longer have a country.

You can have free trade within the United States, you can have free trade with developed countries with the same laws and value systems, but you can’t have free trade with countries who lie, cheat, and steal as a matter of national policy.


22 posted on 05/28/2011 11:33:04 AM PDT by radpolis (Liberals: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy)
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To: CowboyJay

So let’s focus on the original issue you bring up, which I interpret as raising tariffs on Chinese imports. What is generally the result of raising tariffs?

Usually, the country who has to pay the tariffs will also raise tariffs, resulting in diminished American exports and higher consumer prices. Furthermore, China owns so much American debt, that if they were to rapidly dump dollars for gold, real estate, or other assets, what would happen to the value of the dollar? There are no other countries large enough to absorb the huge increase in monetary supply and the US Treasury has already brought us past the brink by their Ponzi scheme of buying their own debt.

China is also rapidly growing their military and have laid down the gauntlet by telling us to lay off of Pakistan, one of two major sources of Islamist instability, the other being Iran.

They are going to hang us with our own rope.

It seems like a checkmate on that front. The only thing that I can think of is too engage in a significant austerity program and cut the debt by at least a trillion dollars a year to demonstrate the US Gov’t is taking the debt seriously and will not signal default or devaluation of the dollar as a means of dealing with the debt.

It is a highly complex problem, and one not likely to be solved politically, due to the inefficiencies and corruption of government.


23 posted on 05/28/2011 11:34:39 AM PDT by LA Conservative (Defeat the Demogogic Party)
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To: LA Conservative
"Furthermore, China owns so much American debt, that if they were to rapidly dump dollars for gold, real estate, or other assets, what would happen to the value of the dollar? There are no other countries large enough to absorb the huge increase in monetary supply and the US Treasury has already brought us past the brink by their Ponzi scheme of buying their own debt."

I think that what we're talking about here is already to some degree inevitable. China was a net seller of UST last year. They've already publicly stated their intent to have USD replaced as the primary reserve currency and for use in international transactions. Barring a return to the gold standard this will happen in the next 10 years. The inflation will hit, it's just a question of when. Inflation is compounded by increasing Chinese demand in all areas.

The biggest thing we can hope to gain by reinstituting tariffs is to provide some protection for manufacturers here in their home market. It's no surprise that the few thriving industries we have left here (pharma, DME, defense) are huge beneficiaries of protectionist policies. This country had tariffs in place on all imports until 1996, and it's not really a surprise that the domestic econonomy started heading south a few years after they were done away with.

'Free Trade', IMO is just sophistry to cover what is actually happening - that is our trade policy by default being put in the hands of the WTO and other organizations with a distinctly anti-American bias. It dovetails nicely with the rest of the globalist progressive agenda, and to me it's disappointing that so many 'conservatives' seem willing to turn a blind eye to the real-world effects in the name of ideological absolutism. I despise labor unions as much as the next Republican, but I would stop somewhere short of scuttling the entire US economy in order to be rid of them.

I think we agree that probably nothing will be done to address the real problems - thanks in no small part due to campaign donations and other soft money being funneled to US politicians by the Chinese. Apparently they have outbid us for the services of our own politicians.
24 posted on 05/28/2011 12:57:58 PM PDT by CowboyJay
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
The following is a quick rant. I don't have much time to rework it or edit it for which I apologize in advance. :-)

There seems to be a huge problem here in America.It is the “elephant in the middle of the room” that no major political leader is acknowledging. We are losing or have already lost jobs to other countries and no political leadership is admitting it is a problem.Not only is it “a” problem but it is “the” main problem with our current economy. It is so obvious that a loss of jobs cause a rise in unemployment. You may say “duh” to that simplistic observation but why is no one saying “duh” or even saying anything?

The loss of manufacturing jobs here in the Thomasville area of NC has led to loss of other jobs as well. One example:The people who were working in the plants had money to spend on cars etc.Since the departure of manufacturing jobs the local car dealerships for Ford & GM have closed.That is just one example of cause and effect.How anyone could argue honestly or without bias that it is good for Americans to lose their jobs to anyone much less to a potentially hostile country is beyond me.
The loss of manufacturing jobs through “our” governments policy changes is wrong.It is obvious,it is dangerous,it is not conservative in it's principles nor is it Patriotic or in the best interest of the American citizens.

It is not because of labor unions here as the plants were not unionized.It is not because of high taxes nor is it the high cost of operation in the US as those factors did not change and thus result in the loss of jobs.
What did change? When did the exodus begin? when we as a nation decided to force our companies and employees to compete with “third world” income and an unacceptable life style. Americans do not want to live in factories and be owned by the employer.We cannot maintain the life style we were used to and compete with people making a few dollars per day.That is never going to work.

The argument that it is jobs Americans will not do is a lie.The Americans were doing the work before the factories closed and before illegal aliens were hired.

The “Buggy Whip” factory argument is a lie and empty as well. Americans still use furniture,wear clothes and use electronics.The buggy whip industry went away because the need for them went away with the event of motorized vehicles...not because they could be made cheaper elsewhere.

That leads me to the question of why? Why has this been promoted and at best tolerated?
One reason is the “Perfect Storm” which has not only created the exodus of good manufacturing jobs but also the influx of illegal aliens to take many of the jobs that were remaining and yes I do think they are connected issues.

The “Perfect Storm” in my opinion is the fact that neither of the two major political parties truly want the “problem” to go away or to be solved. One side seems seems to despise America and jump at the opportunity to “spread the wealth” even to other nations. The other side says they are patriotic but do nothing to curtail the job loses as they are beholden to companies and contributors.
The issues of “free trade” & “illegal aliens” are related because both factors have lowered the quality of jobs and have put downward pressure on the wages of American workers.
Both issues also ignore the American citizen and the importance of protecting us..the US.Whether the job goes overseas or is taken by an illegal “worker” because they will work for much less (and several families live in one house) matters not to the American family who lost the paycheck.

Who will work to restore American dominance?
Why have we allowed the demise?
The first step to recovery is to admit we have a problem.Will we even do that?

25 posted on 05/28/2011 2:30:04 PM PDT by NCSEADOG
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To: FrankR
Frank, I agree with you regarding the unions killing USA industry but there is another issue that needs to be put on the table.

Look at the revenue of the semiconductor industry as a percentage of the GDP during the mid-1980’s. We in the technology sector were the rising star in generating revenue for this country.

Politicians look at us and found out that they could trade out technology for campaign contributions from the Chinese.
We were forced to hire and train Chinese in all phases of the industry. Then came the “reverse brain-drain” back to China and Taiwan.

Now, they own the technology and we are begging for a piece of the action just to survive. BHO just gave out NASA program to China. Clinton sold out technology to China and Carter agreed to train Chinese engineers on how our semiconductor industry works.

Semper Fi...

26 posted on 05/28/2011 7:43:46 PM PDT by MASS-2 FAC (Get premium health care - run for congress)
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