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Vietnam vet threatened with legal action for flying Stars and Stripes outside his home
Daily Mail ^ | June 23, 2011 | Daily Mail Reporter

Posted on 06/27/2011 10:20:34 AM PDT by Immerito

A 77-year-old Army veteran is being threatened with legal action for flying the American flag in his front yard.

Fred Quigley, of Macedonia, Ohio, a retired Army chaplain and minister who served active duty during the Vietnam War, has been told his flag violates his homeowners association's rules on flagpoles.

As an alternative, the association offered to place the flag at the entrance of the development, but Mr Quigley refused.

*****

Mr Quigley's lawyer Gerald Patronite said the association has no right to stop his client.

He cites a 2003 state statute that addresses the homeowner's rights in such a dispute.

'Essentially, no deed restriction or association can abridge this right to display the flag,' he told AOL Real Estate.

Mr Patronite said that the HOA's rules state that a flag can only be displayed if affixed to the home.

But doing so would mean Mr Quigley would have to put up a much smaller flag.

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: flag; fredquigley; hoa; macedonia; ohio
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1 posted on 06/27/2011 10:20:47 AM PDT by Immerito
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To: Immerito

When people move into homes with HOAs, they should read the rules. I totally disagree with the rule but I assume it was there for homeowners to read. Why anyone would want to live under that authority is a mystery to me.


2 posted on 06/27/2011 10:26:22 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Immerito

Which is why I would rather live in a one room tool shed in some rural area that in a mansion in one of these home owner associations. If I wanted to live in place where everything was dictated down to whether I could fly a flag or not, I would just move to Communist China and skip the middle man. It amazes me that some of the same people that scream about the government taking away property rights, will willingly sign over far more to live in one of these communities.


3 posted on 06/27/2011 10:28:53 AM PDT by apillar
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To: ilovesarah2012

What a simple world you must live in. Here in central Florida is is nearly impossible to buy a home which isn’t in a HOA.

Then the real estate and builders are very adept at making sure people DO NOT know whats in them before closing.


4 posted on 06/27/2011 10:34:21 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: apillar

I live in a community where the HOA was poorly put together. The little Hitler that runs it has tried to intimidate me several times in the past and I had to put my foot down on his neck once. Next time I won’t be so nice.

I’ll never live in another community with an HOA.


5 posted on 06/27/2011 10:34:23 AM PDT by BCR #226 (02/07 SOT www.extremefirepower.com...The BS stops when the hammer drops.)
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To: Immerito

HOA Nazis strike again.


6 posted on 06/27/2011 10:34:29 AM PDT by edge10 (Obama lied, babies died!)
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To: driftdiver

They are required to give them to owners and make you sign for them. And I have family in the area. There are plenty of places to live without HOAs.


7 posted on 06/27/2011 10:35:48 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: BCR #226

Our HOA is trying to pass changes to “allow” flags in our development. They can’t get enough people to the meetings.

Our state has a law which forces HOAs to allow flags.


8 posted on 06/27/2011 10:36:10 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Immerito
Virginia has passed some new laws in this area, partly to conform with Federal statutes, and partly to provide additional protections.
9 posted on 06/27/2011 10:37:51 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Immerito

Dude moved into an HOA.

What if the neighbors started flying flags from Mexico or Norway?

Someone is bound to get pissed and the HOA has decided on rule that mitigates anger and preserves the quality of the neighborhood.

He was given an excellent alternative instead of an ultimatum

He is now just an arrrogant SOB.


10 posted on 06/27/2011 10:38:21 AM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: Immerito

Dude moved into an HOA.

What if the neighbors started flying flags from Mexico or Norway?

Someone is bound to get pissed and the HOA has decided on rule that mitigates anger and preserves the quality of the neighborhood.

He was given an excellent alternative instead of an ultimatum

He is now just an arrrogant SOB.


11 posted on 06/27/2011 10:38:29 AM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: ilovesarah2012

When you read the find print on these “vet being told he can’t fly flag” stories, it always comes down to:

(1) He moved into a neighborhood that has covenents.
(2) The covenants always have a provision for flying the flag in some manner, usually a common 3x5 flag attached to a pole mounted on the house.
(3) The vet is mad because he wants to fly 15 foot flag atop a 30 foot flagpole in the middle of his front yard.

If he didn’t like the provisions of the covenents, he shouldn’t have moved in.


12 posted on 06/27/2011 10:38:53 AM PDT by Brookhaven (Herman Cain knows computers, math, missiles, banking, burgers, pizza, gospel music, & Coca-Cola)
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To: ilovesarah2012

“They are required to give them to owners and make you sign for them”

Sure they are require, but do they? No, they’ll usually throw them in the package after closing. I held a license for a few years and saw exactly how they do it.

The only places without an HOA are custom built homes and developments about 40 years old. In Florida any home which is older than about 10 years doesn’t meet hurricane code and is unsafe during a hurricane and incredibly expensive to insure.


13 posted on 06/27/2011 10:39:29 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

(c) If the disclosure summary is not provided to a prospective purchaser before the purchaser executes a contract for the sale of property governed by covenants that are subject to disclosure pursuant to this section, the purchaser may void the contract by delivering to the seller or the seller’s agent or representative written notice canceling the contract within 3 days after receipt of the disclosure summary or prior to closing, whichever occurs first. This right may not be waived by the purchaser but terminates at closing.

http://www.ccfjedu.net/HOAFS720ParII.htm


14 posted on 06/27/2011 10:40:38 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

Like I said, it must be nice to live in such a simple perfect world as you.


15 posted on 06/27/2011 10:41:27 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Immerito
Mr Patronite said that the HOA's rules state that a flag can only be displayed if affixed to the home. But doing so would mean Mr Quigley would have to put up a much smaller flag.

He has a 20 foot flagpole in his front yard. The picture below shows flags being flown in the neighborhood that are withing the covenenats.

He's allowed to fly the flag, he's not allowed (under the covenants which he agreed to follow when he bought into the neighborhood) to erect a 20 foot flagpole in his front yard).

16 posted on 06/27/2011 10:45:56 AM PDT by Brookhaven (Herman Cain knows computers, math, missiles, banking, burgers, pizza, gospel music, & Coca-Cola)
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To: Immerito
Will your association fly into trouble with the new virginia flag law is an interesting link discussing what it means for HOAs.

The U.S. flag law fundamentally changed what HOAs could do in this regard, but it did leave some ambiguity. You have an absolute right to fly a flag. The question becomes what right you have in constructing a structure on which to fly the flag.

Virginia's law says nobody can stop you from flying a flag AFFIXED to your house. But HOAs can still regulate flag poles to some degree; the federal law makes that really hard though, as the above link explains.

The flag pole is NOT the flag, and clearly you would want some control, otherwise a person could build a lighthouse in their front yard, put a flag at the peak, and say they were just exercising their rights to present the flag as they wanted to. That is of course an extreme example; what about a 100-foot flag pole that requires guy wires?

But most people want to put reasonable poles in their yards, and under federal law now, it's hard to stop them, regardless of what an HOA's covenents say.

The Virginia law now places the burden on HOAs to prove that their restrictions on flag placement/size/etc. meet a compelling HOA interest; further they must write a coherent regulation for it, and include that regulation in disclosure packets. Otherwise the regulations are unenforceable.

So a lot of HOAs are now trying to write such regulations, but some can't because they can't get enough people to the meetings and they require supermajorities to change their covenants (which are now invalid because of the law).

My non-legal opinion is that the law, having superceded the covenants, would support a board writing up new regulations without needing to change covenants, so long as the covenants previously allowed the board to restrict flags.

Our board hasn't gone through the process of writing up such regulations, and we pretty much have always approved flag poles, so it's not a big deal, although nobody has ever tried to drop a 50-foot pole in their front yard either. We have one house with a pole about as tall as the house though, with flood lights. (We can regulate the flood lights, and they point away from the street toward the pole).

Having said that, I wonder if there will be litigation coming about whether lights on the flag fall under the same regulations as the flag pole. There doesn't appear to be any case law yet.

17 posted on 06/27/2011 10:46:39 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Immerito

The issue is not that he cannot display the flag.

The issue is that he cannot just arbitrarily, on his volition, put a flagpole up in his front yard to display the flag.

What if every homeowner did that in an association?

Did he get permission from the HOA Architectural Review Board?

Did he install it properly—because if it is common property(which in some HOAs is anything outside the walls of your home)and the thing falls and hurts somebody or HOA property(ie, even the roof and walls of his own home) the HOA insurance policy will get a claim against it. That means the premium for the entire association goes up—and everyone pays the increase through their dues.

Moral is: The HOA is not at fault. They are enforcing the rules everyone agreed to when they signed on the dotted line. The HOa is just trying to maintain community standards to keep propArties looking good and uniform. That’s a major reason people live in such common interest communities to begin with.

The HOA is NOT forbidding the flying of an American flag. You can fly a 3x5 flag from your home, nothing wrong with that.

But you cannot erect a pole for any reason in front of your home in common area just because you want to—noble reasons or not.

If he wants to do that, sell the home, and move to a non association neighborhood and erect a flagpole—oh, but you will have to get approval from the town first and a permit—oops.

Next.


18 posted on 06/27/2011 10:52:13 AM PDT by exit82 (Democrats are the enemy of freedom. Sarah Palin is our Esther.)
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To: driftdiver

What a dumb thing to say. Why do you imply I live in a “simple, perfect world”? I can read and understand how HOAs work. They have rules. You live there, you follow the rules. You don’t want to follow the rules? Don’t live there. Do a simple real estate search for the Orlando area and see how many single family homes are not in developments with HOAs. It ain’t rocket science.


19 posted on 06/27/2011 10:52:50 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Brookhaven
(3) The vet is mad because he wants to fly 15 foot flag atop a 30 foot flagpole in the middle of his front yard.



It's a standard 15ft pole, with 3ft by 5ft flag at the edge of his landscaping.
20 posted on 06/27/2011 10:53:08 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: Vendome

Well, it would be ok if they lived in Mexico or Norway.
I agree, he was given many options which he would not take.
When you live in an HOA, you have to abide by the rules you agreed to, or run for the board and change them.


21 posted on 06/27/2011 10:54:14 AM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: Vendome

I tend to agree with you. He knew the rules and it seems they are trying to accommodate him, but he wants his 15 minutes.


22 posted on 06/27/2011 10:54:50 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Vendome
He is now just an arrrogant SOB.

Fred Quigley, of Macedonia, Ohio, a retired Army chaplain and minister who served active duty during the Vietnam War, .........

............Mr Quigley said: 'It's the principle. It's about patriotism, and the soldiers I've had to hold as they were dying.............

.........'As a minister and a chaplain, I have fought for people,' Quigley said. 'Now I fight for myself.'
23 posted on 06/27/2011 10:57:21 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: ilovesarah2012

State statues trump HOA rules.

****

“He cites a 2003 state statute that addresses the homeowner’s rights in such a dispute.

‘Essentially, no deed restriction or association can abridge this right to display the flag,’ “

****
This is not a common occurrence of a homeowner failing to comply with HOA rules; this is an HOA which has created a rule in violation of a state statute.


24 posted on 06/27/2011 10:58:42 AM PDT by Immerito (Reading Through the Bible in 90 Days)
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To: driftdiver

So this man was not smart enough to read the rules before purchasing his home? That’s sad. Almost everyone knows homeowners associations have rules. Why is he an exception?


25 posted on 06/27/2011 10:59:12 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

The HOA rules, in this instance, are in violation of a state statute.


26 posted on 06/27/2011 10:59:47 AM PDT by Immerito (Reading Through the Bible in 90 Days)
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To: Girlene

Form the picture it looks reasonable, and if I were a homeowner in the neighborhood I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

But we can both agree the headline is misleading. He’s not being denied the ability to fly the flag. The flag isn’t banned in his neighborhood. There is a covenant against free-standing flag-poles.

It’s essentially just as I predicted it would be. Someone complaining about being denied the right to fly the flag, and painting the HOA as being evil and unpatriotic. Turns out that he doesn’t like the covenants he agreed to when he moved into the neighborhoos.

And hey, I’m no big fan of neighborhood associations. But I am a big fan of people keeping to their agreements. He’s not keeping to an agreement he made freely.


27 posted on 06/27/2011 11:04:04 AM PDT by Brookhaven (Herman Cain knows computers, math, missiles, banking, burgers, pizza, gospel music, & Coca-Cola)
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To: Immerito

He can fly his flag - just not on a flag pole. The rules are it needs to be affixed to his home. He was provided rules before he bought his home. If he didn’t read them, that it his fault. If the rule is in violation of a state statute, let him sue the HOA. Mountain out of a mole hill.


28 posted on 06/27/2011 11:04:45 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

ditto

been there, done that, won’t do it again

no sympathy for those who do

all contracts need to be read, and signed only with the legal understanding that your signature identifies/makes/means your agreement


29 posted on 06/27/2011 11:05:11 AM PDT by Wuli
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To: Immerito

Then he will win. Problem solved.


30 posted on 06/27/2011 11:06:18 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Wuli

Finally! Someone with common sense!


31 posted on 06/27/2011 11:08:13 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012
So this man was not smart enough to read the rules before purchasing his home? That’s sad. Almost everyone knows homeowners associations have rules. Why is he an exception?

He's not. He has rights. From firstamendmentcenter

..........Meanwhile, in 2004 President George W. Bush signed a bill preventing condominium and homeowner associations from restricting display of the United States flag by individual unit owners. Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, R-Md., sponsored H.R. 42, which was passed unanimously by both the House and the Senate. In a statement about the bill, Bush said, “Americans have long flown our flag as an expression of their appreciation for our freedoms and their pride in our nation. As our brave men and women continue to fight to protect our country overseas, Congress has passed an important measure to protect our citizens’ right to express their patriotism here at home without burdensome restrictions.”..............

.............Some state legislatures have passed provisions that protect the display of flags and signs on condominium-association property:..............

......Ohio. The state Legislature passed a law in 2005 that allows all residents to display the U.S. flag if the display is within the bounds of local, state, or federal ordinances. House Bill 539 additionally forbids any regulation of flagpoles — as to placement or size — if the poles are used to fly the American flag and don't exceed the height allowed by local, state or federal codes.
32 posted on 06/27/2011 11:11:00 AM PDT by Girlene (You do believe in the 1st amendment, right?)
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To: Immerito; driftdiver
Here is the pertinent section of the Ohio state statute, in its entirety:


Ohio Revised Code - Title LIII Real Property - Section 5301.072 Deed restrictions prohibiting placement of flag unenforceable.

Legal Research Home > Ohio Laws > Real Property > Ohio Revised Code - Title LIII Real Property - Section 5301.072 Deed restrictions prohibiting placement of flag unenforceable.

(A) No covenant, condition, or restriction set forth in a deed, and no rule, regulation, bylaw, or other governing document or agreement of a homeowners, neighborhood, civic, or other association, shall prohibit or be construed to prohibit the placement on any property of a flagpole that is to be used for the purpose of displaying, or shall prohibit or be construed to prohibit the display on any property of, the flag of the United States if the flag is displayed in accordance with any of the following:

(1) The patriotic customs set forth in 4 U.S.C.A. 5-10, as amended, governing the display and use of the flag of the United States;

(2) The consent of the property's owner or of any person having lawful control of the property;

(3) The recommended flagpole standards set forth in "Our Flag," published pursuant to S.C.R. 61 of the 105th Congress, 1st Session (1998);

(4) Any federal law, proclamation of the president of the United States or the governor, section of the Revised Code, or local ordinance or resolution.

(B) A covenant, condition, restriction, rule, regulation, bylaw, governing document, or agreement or a construction of any of these items that violates division (A) of this section is against public policy and unenforceable in any court of this state to the extent it violates that division. Effective Date: 04-07-2003

Sections:  Previous  5301.02  5301.03  5301.04  5301.05  5301.06  5301.07  5301.071  5301.072  5301.08  5301.09  5301.10  5301.11  5301.12  5301.13  5301.14  Next Last modified: April 1, 2010


33 posted on 06/27/2011 11:12:52 AM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: ilovesarah2012

“What a dumb thing to say”

Not really, only addressing someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about.

From about 1995 thru 2006 the market was moving very fast. In new housing developments there would literally be lines of people waiting to buy homes. If you didn’t take the house as-is right then, one of the 4 or 5 people behind you would. I sold homes and had 6 written offers within 2 days of it going on the market. In many cases you had offers before the home was actually on the market.

Most of the demand was driven by people new to the area. Many of whom had never even heard of a HOA let alone understand them. You want a delay so you can understand the rules, you just lost the house.

Sure there are homes not in HOAs, most were built in the early 80s or earlier. They aren’t built to code and about 90% of them are in crappy areas of town. Go get one of those, good luck.


34 posted on 06/27/2011 11:13:42 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Brookhaven
But we can both agree the headline is misleading. He’s not being denied the ability to fly the flag. The flag isn’t banned in his neighborhood. There is a covenant against free-standing flag-poles.

No, I don't agree. The headline is "Vietnam vet threatened with legal action for flying Stars and Stripes outside his home". That is true. He has every right to fly this flag. From firstamendmentcenter

"Ohio. The state Legislature passed a law in 2005 that allows all residents to display the U.S. flag if the display is within the bounds of local, state, or federal ordinances. House Bill 539 additionally forbids any regulation of flagpoles — as to placement or size — if the poles are used to fly the American flag and don't exceed the height allowed by local, state or federal codes. "
35 posted on 06/27/2011 11:16:53 AM PDT by Girlene (You do believe in the 1st amendment, right?)
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To: driftdiver

So you sold these homes to people but didn’t advise them of what HOAs are?


36 posted on 06/27/2011 11:17:03 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

Do you have to work hard to be so obtuse?


37 posted on 06/27/2011 11:20:11 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

I asked a question. Is that your idea of being obtuse?


38 posted on 06/27/2011 11:25:29 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

yes


39 posted on 06/27/2011 11:26:33 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Immerito

HOAs are basically dictatorships...often run by extremely petty people.

They should be done away with as un-American and anti-liberty.


40 posted on 06/27/2011 11:27:05 AM PDT by Emperor Palpatine (Can you afford to board the Chattanooga Choo-Choo?)
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To: driftdiver

A good agent:

It depends on the development. Many HOA docs are straight forward and reliably followed. Reviewing these with the client buyer is absolutely something we will do. Some communities have a large body of rule interpretations that make reading and blindly following the HOA docs a bit risky. In those cases we review the docs but caution the buyer to contact HOA management with questions before and after the sale.


I have found that it works best if I review them first and make notes of things that stand out to me. Then, I pass them on to you, have you read them, find out what questions you have and tell you what I’ve found to be noteworthy. Then, I figure out how to get answers to your questions.


I do help all of my buyers after qualifying if they understand HOA’s in general. Those who feel adverse to HOA control are asked to commit or kick out the deal. After that, those who still want to move forward will discuss
any outstanding financial issues the HOA has. Like a pending blanket assessment, or hole in the bottom of their pool.


http://www.trulia.com/voices/Home_Buying/Buyers_agents_do_you_read_the_HOA_docs_along_w-238648


41 posted on 06/27/2011 11:36:36 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Emperor Palpatine

Yeah, they sound like communes... one more throw back to the ‘60’s and ‘70’s...


42 posted on 06/27/2011 11:36:44 AM PDT by LaRueLaDue
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To: Swordmaker

It seems that the vet’s lawyer is correct, then. The HOA is in violation of the law.


43 posted on 06/27/2011 11:38:02 AM PDT by Immerito (Reading Through the Bible in 90 Days)
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To: ilovesarah2012

Why thank you very much, I typically look for advice from people who have demonstrated a willful ignorance.


44 posted on 06/27/2011 11:48:43 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

Please show me my willful ignorance so I will no longer be ignorant. I want to learn from the best.


45 posted on 06/27/2011 11:51:13 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Immerito
It seems that the vet’s lawyer is correct, then. The HOA is in violation of the law.

Yup. The HOA despots better pray that their covenants and restrictions were well written with a clause that states that if one section is found to be null and void it does not invalidate ALL of them because that can serve as a means to break the contract, which is all that it is: a contract binding the parties to abide by the rules in the agreement. If they take it to court and it set aside as unenforceable, it maybe held breakabe... And all covenants and restriction unenforceable! I doubt that will happen, but if that severability clause isn't in there it's possible that might be the outcome.

46 posted on 06/27/2011 11:51:48 AM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: Swordmaker; Immerito
From Swordmaker's post, it says "Effective Date: 04-07-2003"

According to this article, Vietnam Vet Fighting For His Right To Fly Old Glory Quigley moved into the retirement community just last year. The HOA appears to be in violation of Ohio state law. Maybe they are quibbling over this?

"Landscapers have to work around it," Magliorini says. Furthermore, he says federal standards of flag etiquette require that unless the displayer of the flag takes it down at night, it must be illuminated. "That creates a need for electricity to be run out to the pole."

I'm sure Quigley is capable of taking down the flag at night.
47 posted on 06/27/2011 11:53:16 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: Swordmaker

Swordmaker,

In my experience the HOA rules are mostly intended to protect the builder while they build out the development. They control the HOA and make the rules. The developer can also change the rules anytime they want up until they voluntarily turn the development over to the homeowners.

Our HOA bans all flags, which does not comply with state law. They’ve tried changing it several times but cannot get enough people. They also are trying to change the rules so they can fine people for not maintaining their yards. That hasn’t passed either.

So the one major reason an HOA exists for, to force maintenance of exteriors, is unenforceable because the covenants are written so poorly.


48 posted on 06/27/2011 12:18:48 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Girlene

I read the story and he is still an arrogant SOB who’s real intent to get attention.

HOA rules are there for a reason.

If Vets from Norway show up and buy a home in the HOA then they should be allowed to fly their colors as well.

After that then they can start allowing commercial vehicles in all the driveways, Lawn ornaments, fountains, etc.

The neighborhood will start looking my My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

Dude should take his win and help dedicate the Flag to his nation and neighborhood.

The HOA is being reasonable and he is well....


49 posted on 06/27/2011 1:28:04 PM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: svcw

LOL

Agreed.

I live in an HOA and there have some things tried. Personally, I didn’t care about them but when thought out and what the future looks like for exceptions it makes sense.


50 posted on 06/27/2011 1:29:51 PM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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